Lack of locality immersion?

[Koalachan]

Can we please stop comparing it to WoW. I know it's been said before, but even not counting it being against the forum rules, it gets old fast. We can easily talk about immersion or lack thereof without comparing it to WoW. OP at least compared it to another game in the same series.

[Spellweaver]

I stopped taking you seriously after that post. You do realize SWTOR has probably the best musical composition out of any game, right? Maybe you shut off the music when you played. I have no idea how you can even remotely say that TOR has barely any music in it.

The game having one of the best musical compositions has nothing to do with how frequent the music plays in the game. In that regard, the game really does have a lack of music.
The music usually only played when I was fighting multiple stronger mobs, an elite or a champion. Never when I simply fought a few standard mobs.

The only parts in the game where I've heard music outside combat is:

• The center of the Empire/Republic fleet, but can only be heard in the center part. Music slowly dies down when you move towards the other parts of the fleet.
• Near a jukebox in a cantina.
• When a loading screen takes a long time.

It's pretty much quiet everywhere else, barely having any ambience doesn't help this either.

As for the patrolling mobs, I'll take Belsavis as an example.
I've seen a few patrolling droids/humanoids, but the majority of the mobs simply just stand at a place, literally waiting for someone to kill them.

[Mandible]

The nature of MMO's is to get to max level as soon as possible. With each planet having 3-5 quest hubs perhaps it would have been a waste of resources to give each quest hub a character of its own.

Thoughts?

Why do you think the nature of ALL mmo games are to get max level as fast as possible. The nature of an mmo is to be immersed in the world which gives the chance to experince things and get to max level in your own pace. Its just with world of warcraft the developers have decided to neclect old world things - which they dont in sw:tor for that matter (returning you to planets you allready cleared in the story / companion quests).

[Forsedar]

Why do you think the nature of ALL mmo games are to get max level as fast as possible. The nature of an mmo is to be immersed in the world which gives the chance to experince things and get to max level in your own pace. Its just with world of warcraft the developers have decided to neclect old world things - which they dont in sw:tor for that matter (returning you to planets you allready cleared in the story / companion quests).

The nature NOWADAYS is to get to max level for end game. Thats either the end point for some people are the start point. I know for the majority of people that max level is when the fun begins. Its a small portion of the population who plays games just to level and then quits.

[Leonard McCoy]

What about all the times (in WoW) you'll be at a mine or something and the commander mob is shouting at the mining mobs to "Hurry it up! We've gotto get the shipment ready in time for blah blah..."..

That is an effort at making the mobs more immersive that SWTOR doesn't have anywhere. There are no patrolling mobs in SWTOR like there are in WoW. And the fight outside hutta is half-assed - if you kill the mobs they're shooting at the NPCs just keep shooting at thin air. That's not how it works in WoW at all, the technology there is alot better and more immersive, even though its much older.

There's ambient sounds everywhere in WoW, birds chirping, waterfalls, etc. None of that in SWTOR. And you didn't even mention the part about the wildlife (because SWTOR barely has any and the few it does have are completely stationary). Not to mention swimming, sitting in chairs, all these little details that on their own mean nothing but taken together make WoW much more immersive than SWTOR. There's barely even any music in SWTOR (compared to WoW where it plays nonstop)...

Take a look at these videos, take a look at how static and dead everything is:
NPCs stand frozen in unnatural poses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3Rrk6lgi24 How is this immersive?
This one especially says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9_hqGsnpp8



Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJIsdl4BL2Q
Where do you see this sort of thing in WoW, and why do you excuse it in a modern MMO? You're telling me the devs couldn't take 2 minutes to create unique NPCs? Even the guards in WoW have unique faces.



I just did.

And lastly, how come its always daytime? And why do all the planets look EXACTLY LIKE EARTH??? It's either a desert, an oak forest, or snow. This is supposed to be space, where are the alien trees? Where are the electric clouds? the Burning Crusade has more imaginative alien-like features than SWTOR and that was 5 years ago!

BS. I've seen you post those videos before and their ridiculous. As I said before their's literally a mob war outside of hutta. Mobs are shooting at one and other, taking cover and firing. That video carefully avoids that. The framing and bias in it is so god damn blatant it may as well have been produced by fox news. NPCs have small but nuanced movements when they talk to each other as well. Take what is probably one of the best gags in the game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA3T3SBZ740

Clearly their moving. But your video carefully chooses not to show that? Why is that it carefully avoids the scenes where plenty of action goes on? Where immersion is taking place? Oh more evidence is required how about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5feZCqm2SuI



Skip ahead to 4:50. Plenty of action on tythus as the jedi are fighting off an invasion. The same thing happens on Ord Mantell going on with a war outside the space port. I'm tired of the pure unmitigated BS framing that people use about the game. What about ambient music you say? Our ambient sounds? How bout the alien jazz bands on the fleet? Or even the news announcements going on with the new rakghoul plague? Pretty ambient and immersive but all carefully neglected in those videos. Mobs are also patrolling. Corellia for example has robot droids patrolling the streets. They walk in a loop. I'll take screen shots when I get home later. Your arguments and more importantly those videos are intellectually dishonest and do your arguments no credit or service.

[Dreary]

BS. I've seen you post those videos before and their ridiculous. As I said before their's literally a mob war outside of hutta. Mobs are shooting at one and other, taking cover and firing. That video carefully avoids that. The framing and bias in it is so god damn blatant it may as well have been produced by fox news. NPCs have small but nuanced movements when they talk to each other as well. Take what is probably one of the best gags in the game

Ok first of all calm down. The videos show the starting zone - did you even watch them? Obviously they don't show the entire game, instead they show the first thing players see - basically what players form their first impressions on.

Are you denying these videos are of the game? Because I don't understand how you can say they are "intellectually dishonest", they simply show the game, no commentary, no editing. And they aren't my videos, I just found them on YouTube.

Secondly, I already answered you why the battle outside of hutta (or any of the battles actually) are depthless when it comes to immersion - if you kill the mobs they are firing at, the NPCs just keep on firing into thin air. When you compare that to other nearly decade-old MMOs where the NPCs target eachother instead of firing at nothing, it's not very immersive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA3T3SBZ740 Clearly their moving.

Show me where I said absolutely nothing moves? Of course there are some NPCs and mobs that move, I clearly said that there were. But most of the mobs you encounter just stand or sit there waiting for you to kill them. That's a simple fact. So why the personal jabs comparing me to Fox?

What about ambient music you say? Our ambient sounds? How bout the alien jazz bands on the fleet? Or even the news announcements going on with the new rakghoul plague? Pretty ambient and immersive but all carefully neglected in those videos. Mobs are also patrolling. Corellia for example has robot droids patrolling the streets. They walk in a loop. I'll take screen shots when I get home later. Your arguments and more importantly those videos are intellectually dishonest and do your arguments no credit or service.

Again, just because a few areas of the game have movement and ambient sounds, how come Bioware couldn't implement that everywhere? Why are you excusing the starting zones in the video from having the same detail as the patrolling mobs in Corellia?

Lastly, you seem to be attacking the videos as if I'm intentionally using only them to portray the entire game, where as I brought up many other points where SWTOR falls short on immersion and the videos comprise maybe 5% of them...

[Forsedar]

Ok first of all calm down. The videos show the starting zone - did you even watch them? Obviously they don't show the entire game, instead they show the first thing players see - basically what players form their first impressions on.

Are you denying these videos are of the game? Because I don't understand how you can say they are "intellectually dishonest", they simply show the game, no commentary, no editing. And they aren't my videos, I just found them on YouTube.

Secondly, I already answered you why the battle outside of hutta (or any of the battles actually) are depthless when it comes to immersion - if you kill the mobs they are firing at, the NPCs just keep on firing into thin air. When you compare that to other nearly decade-old MMOs where the NPCs target eachother instead of firing at nothing, it's not very immersive.



Show me where I said absolutely nothing moves? Of course there are some NPCs and mobs that move, I clearly said that there were. But most of the mobs you encounter just stand or sit there waiting for you to kill them. That's a simple fact. So why the personal jabs comparing me to Fox?



Again, just because a few areas of the game have movement and ambient sounds, how come Bioware couldn't implement that everywhere? Why are you excusing the starting zones in the video from having the same detail as the patrolling mobs in Corellia?

Lastly, you seem to be attacking the videos as if I'm intentionally using only them to portray the entire game, where as I brought up many other points where SWTOR falls short on immersion and the videos comprise maybe 5% of them...

You are using them to portray the entire game...

[Dreary]

You are using them to portray the entire game...

The entire game lacks immersion. Most mobs anywhere in-game just sit or stand there waiting for you to kill them. It's just true. You can make up any excuse you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the ambiance is below standard when compared to other older MMOs.

How come it's always daytime on every single planet? I mean they could have gotten really creative with this, given each planet their own cycle based on its parent star(s). But instead they didn't take the time.

Why does every race use exactly the same body? Could they not make different models for the different races? Basically you're either a normal-looking human, a red human with horns, a green human etc.

Lack of emotes, no swimming, no sitting in chairs, no original plant-life, stationary critters, don't you see it all amounts to the same thing which is a lack of immersion, and it's lacking throughout the game. Doesn't mean I'm Fox news for pointing this out in a thread talking about lack of immersion. This is something they should have done better.

[Forsedar]

The entire game lacks immersion. Most mobs anywhere in-game just sit or stand there waiting for you to kill them. It's just true. You can make up any excuse you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the ambiance is below standard when compared to other older MMOs.

How come it's always daytime on every single planet? I mean they could have gotten really creative with this, given each planet their own cycle based on its parent star(s). But instead they didn't take the time.

Why does every race use exactly the same body? Could they not make different models for the different races? Basically you're either a normal-looking human, a red human with horns, a green human etc.

Lack of emotes, no swimming, no sitting in chairs, no original plant-life, stationary critters, don't you see it all amounts to the same thing which is a lack of immersion, and it's lacking throughout the game. Doesn't mean I'm Fox news for pointing this out in a thread talking about lack of immersion. This is something they should have done better.

Its funny, because everything you are complaining about was already explained thoroughly during every single one of their QAs.

Its day time on every single planet because it would require A LOT of resources in order to have a day and night cycle for every current and future planet in the game. I would rather those resources be focused on end game content where the majority of players spend their time.

They didn't add in swimming because really, whats the point? Why would we need a giant lake in the middle of the map for you to swim in? What would be the purpose? Personally swimming in other games annoys me because it makes me get to my destination slower.

Lack of emotes? Have you seen the emote list!? There is along the lines of like 70 something emotes, not the mention the ones they keep adding in. So 70 compared to what in other games? 15?

No sitting in chairs: Who cares? I don't play a game to sit in game when I'm sitting out of the game. I guess if you want to RP that kind of sucks but I still don't see the point. However, you can sit in chairs on your ship if you haven't noticed. You can sit in the Captains seat as well as the ones around it in the cockpit.

And about the plant life point- I really don't understand that. I see grass. I see trees. What more do you need? I doubt Roses exist on certain planets other than 'Earth'. Its a different universe.

[Leonard McCoy]

Ok first of all calm down. The videos show the starting zone - did you even watch them? Obviously they don't show the entire game, instead they show the first thing players see - basically what players form their first impressions on.

Are you denying these videos are of the game? Because I don't understand how you can say they are "intellectually dishonest", they simply show the game, no commentary, no editing. And they aren't my videos, I just found them on YouTube.

Secondly, I already answered you why the battle outside of hutta (or any of the battles actually) are depthless when it comes to immersion - if you kill the mobs they are firing at, the NPCs just keep on firing into thin air. When you compare that to other nearly decade-old MMOs where the NPCs target eachother instead of firing at nothing, it's not very immersive.



Show me where I said absolutely nothing moves? Of course there are some NPCs and mobs that move, I clearly said that there were. But most of the mobs you encounter just stand or sit there waiting for you to kill them. That's a simple fact. So why the personal jabs comparing me to Fox?



Again, just because a few areas of the game have movement and ambient sounds, how come Bioware couldn't implement that everywhere? Why are you excusing the starting zones in the video from having the same detail as the patrolling mobs in Corellia?

Lastly, you seem to be attacking the videos as if I'm intentionally using only them to portray the entire game, where as I brought up many other points where SWTOR falls short on immersion and the videos comprise maybe 5% of them...

And even showing the starting zones they lack objectivity. The starting zones have plenty of immersion as I showed in my videos. In fact arguably their the most immersive in the game because stuff is literally happening outside your door. The war with the seperatists on ord mantell, the gang war on hutta, the invasion on tython all immersive "events" that occur as the player walks through. The videos ignore that. Hutta is a starting zone fyi, and is probably the most immersive. The cantina is filled with tons of neat stuff. The bounty hunter gag, the wookie playing space chess with the droid, all kinds of immersive crap ..makes me wonder if you've even played the game...

[Dreary]

Its funny, because everything you are complaining about was already explained thoroughly during every single one of their QAs.

Its day time on every single planet because it would require A LOT of resources in order to have a day and night cycle for every current and future planet in the game. I would rather those resources be focused on end game content where the majority of players spend their time.

They didn't add in swimming because really, whats the point? Why would we need a giant lake in the middle of the map for you to swim in? What would be the purpose? Personally swimming in other games annoys me because it makes me get to my destination slower.

Lack of emotes? Have you seen the emote list!? There is along the lines of like 70 something emotes, not the mention the ones they keep adding in. So 70 compared to what in other games? 15?

No sitting in chairs: Who cares? I don't play a game to sit in game when I'm sitting out of the game. I guess if you want to RP that kind of sucks but I still don't see the point. However, you can sit in chairs on your ship if you haven't noticed. You can sit in the Captains seat as well as the ones around it in the cockpit.

And about the plant life point- I really don't understand that. I see grass. I see trees. What more do you need? I doubt Roses exist on certain planets other than 'Earth'. Its a different universe.

You doubt Roses exist, but grass and trees do? Really?

These are alien worlds. There's so much opportunity to be creative. The last thing I want to see is grass, trees, landscapes that look EXACTLY like earth. Seriously what a missed opportunity. You doubt roses exist on planets other than Earth, but you're fine with grass/trees?! It's just so generic and bland. Burning Crusade had alien looking plants and landscapes, why can't this game?

Day/night cycle would require lots of resources? Ha! Here's the code.

if (system.getTime() == 1800){
setLighting(500);
}else{
setLighting(1000);
}

Its a simple change in luminosity depending on the system time. The wiki for Hero Engine shows how easy it is, the functions are basically built into the engine.

No swimming, no sitting in chairs, who cares - I do! I told you, on their own they mean nothing, but immersion is all about the small details. They could build whole underwater worlds if they had swimming.

And I notice you didn't bother mentioning how all races use the same model. Am I to understand that you find this acceptable too, or that you simply couldn't find a valid excuse for it? It's a space MMO, here's the opportunity to be super creative, have all sorts of alien bodies... instead we get to play as different colored humans. $300 million for this? Really?

[Leonard McCoy]

Lack of emotes,

You're kidding right. Now I'm convinced you haven't played this game and are just spouting talking points you read on 4 chan.

[Dreary]

And even showing the starting zones they lack objectivity. The starting zones have plenty of immersion as I showed in my videos. In fact arguably their the most immersive in the game because stuff is literally happening outside your door. The war with the seperatists on ord mantell, the gang war on hutta, the invasion on tython all immersive "events" that occur as the player walks through. The videos ignore that. Hutta is a starting zone fyi, and is probably the most immersive. The cantina is filled with tons of neat stuff. The bounty hunter gag, the wookie playing space chess with the droid, all kinds of immersive crap ..makes me wonder if you've even played the game...

I've told you twice now and you keep avoiding it.

If you kill the mobs that the NPCs are firing at, the NPCs keep firing at thin air.

That's not immersive.

[Leonard McCoy]

if (system.getTime() == 1800){
setLighting(500);
}else{
setLighting(1000);
}

Its a simple change in luminosity depending on the system time. The wiki for Hero Engine shows how easy it is, the functions are basically built into the engine.

And that would not bring a night sky with stars or affect the surrounding luminosity of other light sources in the game or a HOST OF OTHER FACTORS. You should really stick to your day job and not arm chair program.

---------- Post added 2012-04-21 at 10:43 PM ----------

I've told you twice now and you keep avoiding it.

If you kill the mobs that the NPCs are firing at, the NPCs keep firing at thin air.

That's not immersive.

Until more mobs come and it repeats itself. Immersiveness is always an illusion period. You can make that same video about any game. How many times did I see the that group of amabassadors tour through silvermoon? Same thing they said over and over again... HOW IMMERSIVE is that.. As for using the same model I have absolutely ZERO problem with that. I find it more immersive that things reflect humanoid form and behaviour as opposed to umpteenth number of anthropomorphized animals acting as people. It makes the game as a whole more "immersive" and the story vastly more entertaining.

[Forsedar]

Dreary, I think it has been settled. Please stop replying or we will be forced to report your posts. You are just throwing around nonsense now in order to try to make the game look bad. You even directly attacked the amount spent on the game as if you could do better with less money.

This game is more immersive than any other MMO on the market. Stop acting like it isn't. It has been clear that you simply have not played more than 5min of this game and think that youtube has provided you with all the answers that qualify you to make these statements.

[Dreary]

And that would not bring a night sky with stars or affect the surrounding luminosity of other light sources in the game or a HOST OF OTHER FACTORS. You should really stick to your day job and not arm chair program.

---------- Post added 2012-04-21 at 10:43 PM ----------



Until more mobs come and it repeats itself. Immersiveness is always an illusion period. You can make that same video about any game.

NPCs firing at thin air until more mobs come is immersive? Ok then...

And it's real hard to have a night sky as the default sky, then throw a solid blue/red/green over it during daytime.

Dreary, I think it has been settled. Please stop replying or we will be forced to report your posts. You are just throwing around nonsense now in order to try to make the game look bad. You even directly attacked the amount spent on the game as if you could do better with less money.

This game is more immersive than any other MMO on the market. Stop acting like it isn't. It has been clear that you simply have not played more than 5min of this game and think that youtube has provided you with all the answers that qualify you to make these statements.

I'm sorry that you take this game so personally that you need to report anyone who details why the game lacks immersion, in a thread who's focus is why the game lacks immersion.

[Leonard McCoy]

NPCs firing at thin air until more mobs come is immersive? Ok then...

And it's real hard to have a night sky as the default sky, then throw a solid blue/red/green over it during daytime. Totally uses too many resources to implement.

Okay but that doesn't account for every other light source in the game, which has to reflect the changing day and night pattern. That is ONE SINGLE complication I could think of and I'm not a game designer or programmer by any means. I'm sure theirs more. You should apply for blizzard or bw or ubisoft or something though, I'm sure with your fat programming resume and forum posting history of trying to tell developers how to make their game they'd be all over hiring you. What a crock....

As for killing the mobs, I wouldn't know I tried to avoid the mob wars and not get caught up in gang related activity :P I'm sure the immersion is broken just as it is in every other game.. That does not make the moment that you see it less immersive, it just makes it less immersive subsequently.

[Forsedar]

NPCs firing at thin air until more mobs come is immersive? Ok then...

And it's real hard to have a night sky as the default sky, then throw a solid blue/red/green over it during daytime. Totally uses too many resources to implement.

Enough of this. I guess simple ideas just go straight over your head.


The reason why this would require a lot of unnecessary resources is because there are a ton of planets. Each with their very unique story behind them. Each that have different 'day' cycles (Earth is 24 hours). All of them have different distances from the sun. If they had added it in, I am sure you would be complaining about the 'light intensity' of planets who have a larger distance from the sun. I'm sure you will complain that all the day and night cycles are the same when they shouldn't be.

They did a great job with this. When I go into Denova, I can look up and see Nar Shaddaa on the planet above us. That would have to be cycling in and out in order to make the day and night cycle work.

Again, please stop trying to throw random arguments around.

[Rhonen]

To be fair, you compared it to other Bioware titles which solely focus on the story line and immersion. This is an MMO so all of their resources can't be focused on that.

I think this is a response to one of the other posters. You and I were saying the same thing. Making thousands of random NPCs clickable with static one-liners is a waste...

[Deleted]

Yes, the code that you put on there changes luminosity to the system time. Great.

That would just mean that all planets in the game would go to be night at exactly the same time, they would have the same cycle as Earth. Yay for immersion. That isn't unrealistic at all.

Also, day/Night cycles, in TOR, although would be great would take a bunch of resources to do properly, and is not high on the list of things to do. What would you do with things like Hoth though. Was it not established in the films that if you get stuck out in Hoth after dark then you will pretty much freeze to death unless you manage to live inside a bantha and that you really can't be out at night there running about questing.

Then again, you need cold weather clothing and cant really run around with your skimpy clothing and midriff showing during the day either.