beta Highest damage grimoire?

[Evillocksp]

Was wondering if anyone knew wut was best ive been using grimoire of service becuz the fire resummon isnt summoning my pet and taking away my grim of sacrifice buff away

[Considerit]

Grimoire of Service is mathematically the best for any spec. 25% uptime on a second demon (which is at least 25% more demon dps - more, most likely, due to stacking it with CDs, uneven fight durations, and increased demonic fury generation for Demo) easily surpasses 10% more damage on your regular demon or 15% more personal damage at the cost of your entire demon dps. One doesn't even have to calculate it out to see how clear Service's superiority is.

The advantage of Grimoire of Supremacy is the additional utility spell gained (not terribly important for PvE), and the advantage of Grimoire of Sacrifice is when encountering pet-unfriendly fights or when a fight is heavily AoE centric.

But for raw PvE damage, Service is almost always the answer.

[Evillocksp]

yea im a destro lock and loving the service grimoire using succubus as regular pet then using imp as service gusrdian they can kill lvl 87s on there own in like 5 seconds really helps with my burst

[ComputerNerd]

An impossible question to answer.
On targets with regular target switching the dps of the pet will be somewhat reduced, particularly for melee-orientated ones, so on those fights Sacrifice will be a lot more attractive than would otherwise be.

[Deleted]

Considerit: It is a bit more complicated than that, Grimoire of Sacrifice has changed since one or two builds.

[Considerit]

I'm quite familiar with what Grimoire of Sacrifice now stands as. Yes, it gives 30% damage for the first 15 seconds, and then 15% for the remaining time. Yes, it's direct damage only (kinda sorta - I mean, it doesn't affect RoF/SoC/Etc, sure, but Fire and Brimstone, Havoc, and so forth would still benefit, so it's a bit in between). It's still inferior based on the current amount of damage pets put out, and as long a regular normal demon is at least ~12% of our dps (a low, low bar for them to reach), it will remain that way.

Even if the numbers were in Sacrifice's favor in a vacuum, it will never be chosen by demo (no demonic fury increase, at the very least, kills it), and it's a pain for Affliction or Destro to get the most of. Having to hard-cast summon your pet each two minutes, just to sacrifice again? Or, almost as bad, lose out on a Haunt/Chaos Bolt because you have to spend a precious shard/ember on an instant summon? Either way is somewhat obnoxious, playstyle wise. Plus there's the fact that, even with an instant summon, that's two globals per two minutes, whereas Service is only one.

Sacrifice will have it's niche place for certain PvE fights, sure, but likely little more unless they decently pump up the numbers (or nerf the dps demons do). The thing is, if Sacrifice was on par/superior on paper, then it would often become a no brainer - equal dps without the hassle of managing a pet (even if said management isn't terribly difficult, it's still one more thing to worry about)? Why wouldn't you take it? Especially if you then got more dps on multi-target fights and such?

For PvP, it (and Supremacy) have much more potential. But for PvE, it's very hard - impossible, really - to rationally argue against Service as it currently stands. And, yes, the number pass obviously hasn't happened yet, but it's somewhat difficult for them to balance Sacrifice against Service (although easy to balance Supremacy against Service, and something I really hope they get aroudn to) without making one or the other the clear choice.

Who knows.

[deviantcultist]

Grimoire of Service is mathematically the best for any spec. 25% uptime on a second demon (which is at least 25% more demon dps - more, most likely, due to stacking it with CDs, uneven fight durations, and increased demonic fury generation for Demo) easily surpasses 10% more damage on your regular demon or 15% more personal damage at the cost of your entire demon dps. One doesn't even have to calculate it out to see how clear Service's superiority is.

The advantage of Grimoire of Supremacy is the additional utility spell gained (not terribly important for PvE), and the advantage of Grimoire of Sacrifice is when encountering pet-unfriendly fights or when a fight is heavily AoE centric.

But for raw PvE damage, Service is almost always the answer.

No.Just No. From the first time I've seen that row of talents I said that the Service one is the worse for me. The talents are meant to be flavour based and not "choose the best one math-wise". Given what was said, I personally deny to force my choice on this one no matter what the dps cost may be.

[Fallensaint]

Well, assuming they're properly balanced they should be mostly equal on Patchwerk-type fights. The grimoire talents follow the "standard talent spread" of: low-power passive/no cooldown effect, medium power active effect on medium cooldown, big active effect on a big cooldown.

However, encounter and class/spec mechanics can and will skew talent options to allow for a clear "best" choice, though that choice may not be consistent for all encounters and specs. Currently, things aren't completely balanced (especially not for damage), and there's no endgame content available to make theorycrafting maximum potential DPS worthwhile. For leveling, I'd say just go with your personal preference.

[Count Zero]

I think the folks over at simulationcraft are modeling based on using Service, which means it probably is currently the highest-dps

[Considerit]

With that tier being what it is, one of the three is always going to come out ahead on paper. It's inevitable. Ideally, the gap isn't as big as it currently is. Ideally, just because one is ahead on paper doesn't mean it's always ahead in practice. Ideally, the inferior dps choices are the superior survivability/utility ones, at the least. So on, so forth. And, in fact, I would be willing to bet that Blizzard will do their best to make sure the tier reaches all those ideals.

But, unless they completely redesign all three to have absolutely no impact on damage, one of them is always going to come out ahead for the PvE min-maxer. There's no way to avoid it, but just control the magnitude and the other variables.

It can still be an interesting decision at the end of the day for the majority of players. I mean, let's say Service is 1% ahead of Supremacy. But Supremacy is easier (doesn't require you to do anything different, line the spell up with your cooldowns to get the most out of, etc). Service has more potential for gain, but also more potential for loss. So which would you choose? Probably Supremacy, I'm guessing. Many players would be the same. And many would welcome the higher upside of Service.

But, objectively, there would still be a best choice. There always will.

[Gohzerlock]

No.Just No. From the first time I've seen that row of talents I said that the Service one is the worse for me. The talents are meant to be flavour based and not "choose the best one math-wise". Given what was said, I personally deny to force my choice on this one no matter what the dps cost may be.

I'd love for what you're saying to be true, at first I thought perhaps affliction would run with sac grimore.. I thought the option to run without a pet would be great. Honestly the first 15sec damage output ruined the whole talent, people will almost always choose the highest output thus forcing having to hard cast pets every time sac comes off cd it's just a bad decision. (maybe blizz's fear was that none of us would choose pets?)

Then I thought "oh cool, new badass looking pets" supremacy will be ok, the extra talents are cool but i'm sure what we give up for those extra talents has to be damage output otherwise things aren't balanced. This will still make the talent good for pvp or niche fights as mentioned above just like sac, but service will ultimately be more damage.

Now I could be wrong about all this, no beta numbers are set in stone and the talents have been changed a few times already... but it looks like service is the pve talent to take which is a shame because I think it's kinda boring. Yes blizz intends these talents to be flavor based, i'd really love it to be this way but i'll still be doing whatever the most damage output is in terms of talent unless my raid group needs a specific utility.

[lolterribads]

Blizzard haven't even gone through the balancing/number tweaking phase which is usually left towards the end of beta, so it is likely that there will be clear winners with talents at the moment. It might be a bit different discussion then though

[ComputerNerd]

I think the folks over at simulationcraft are modeling based on using Service, which means it probably is currently the highest-dps

Perhaps based on using on or near cooldown, and if the summoned demons can stay on the target for a sufficient time.
But any mechanics which result in longer durations between cooldowns or lack of uptime on the target will have an impact.

Therefore it simply is impossible to say with certainty, and certainly not likely that one given Grimoire will be dps increase for every fight.
Sure for a patchwerk style fight the choice may be simple, but for anything else less so, and perhaps even demon specific due to ranged vs melee considerations.

[Count Zero]

I just hope they shoot to balance them to be ballpark of one another, even if they want, say, Service to edge slightly higher if played perfectly and Sacrifice to be somewhere in the mid if played perfectly (Saccing for burst, etc), with Supremacy on the low end but harder to screw up than the others. With Sacrifice maybe about matching Supremacy without maximizing the timing. Or something.

[deviantcultist]

I just hope they shoot to balance them to be ballpark of one another, even if they want, say, Service to edge slightly higher if played perfectly and Sacrifice to be somewhere in the mid if played perfectly (Saccing for burst, etc), with Supremacy on the low end but harder to screw up than the others. With Sacrifice maybe about matching Supremacy without maximizing the timing. Or something.

Whatever they case, there should not be significant differences among them. In other words, no choice should be forced around these talents.

[Deleted]

I don´t really believe that we won´t be forced to chose one of these talents even if they balance their damage output, since pets for demo are more important than for affli and destro because of their demonic fury generation, so with sacrificing the demon, you would lose the extra demonic fury generation, and with service you would gain even more demonic fury.
To fix this they should first of all remove the demonic fury generation of the second pet and then add a passive fury generation to the sacrifice buff which is equal to the per sec generation of the pet, or at least something similar. but without these changes i don´t see any choice for demos there =/

[Scathbais]

@Considerit nailed it (for what my opinion is worth lol).

The Grimoires are about utility. Bring the one that fits the fight based on 1) your spec/playstyle 2) fight mechanics.

If you are a set it and forget it type of person, then just stick with Supremacy. The added utility of Supremacy will also be advantageous for fights that require dps to help with dispels, interrupts, etc.

For a tank and spank fight or a Hagara type fight (i.e. phases where boss takes extra damage) Service is numerically higher.

Sacrifice is clearly meant for fights like Alysrazor or Al'Akir phase 3, where your demon despawns or is out of range of the boss.

They were not designed to be equal. They were not designed so that you could pick whichever you want and do optimal damage. They were designed to offer the most flexibility in picking a talent that best helps on each individual fight.

[Count Zero]

Whatever they case, there should not be significant differences among them. In other words, no choice should be forced around these talents.

Even if the difference was 50dps, min/max-ers would declare that mandatory. I think it's fine if there is a tiny, tiny difference intended, with the slightly-highest requiring more micro-management, and the slightly-lowest being fire-and-forget.

[Mortis Darkskull]

I wouldn't worry about this sort of thing for now if I were you... blizz is always saying that seriously fixing numbers is the last thing they'll do on beta...

I know I'll take supremacy because it's cooler and lazier (no extra button on my rotation :3)

[Scathbais]

Even if the difference was 50dps, min/max-ers would declare that mandatory. I think it's fine if there is a tiny, tiny difference intended, with the slightly-highest requiring more micro-management, and the slightly-lowest being fire-and-forget.

It is also fine if their are large differences in damage. All three serve different needs (burst, utility, gimmicky/petless fights, etc).
What is the use if you can maximize your damage using Service, if your raid wipes to something you could AOE dispel if you had the Supremacy grimoire?

People, stop the single-minded focus on maximizing dps. The new talent system is not designed to "game" solely to achieve the best dps. They are to give us the tools necessary to excel (damage, utility, survivability, healing, etc) in end game raiding/pvp