LFD and LFR are hurting WoW gameplay.

[Nadev]

Ugh, I still get lost finding Maraudon's entrance(s). I've been playing for years and only during the last Lunar Festival did it come to my knowledge that there WAS an direct entrance to the waterfall in Maraudon (to the same location LFD teleports us) in that maze. But to be fair, I've always been one to get lost in, like you put it, anything "vaguely resembling anything labyrinthine". Oh Barrow Deeps, how I loathe you all.

I swear the amount of running this game used to take. Anyone wanting to go back to that is beyond help.

[thunderdragon2]

Ugh, I still get lost finding Maraudon's entrance(s). I've been playing for years and only during the last Lunar Festival did it come to my knowledge that there WAS an direct entrance to the waterfall in Maraudon (to the same location LFD teleports us) in that maze. But to be fair, I've always been one to get lost in, like you put it, anything "vaguely resembling anything labyrinthine". Oh Barrow Deeps, how I loathe you all.

and imo thats a problem now new players during cata couldnt find a dungeon entrance if their life depended on it aleast at the start of cata you needed to find the entrance be4 you could run it, which suited me fine. i could avoid grim batol hc on the chars i didnt need anything from there on since it was hell to pug at the begining of cata the rest were ok

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 02:58 AM ----------

I swear the amount of running this game used to take. Anyone wanting to go back to that is beyond help.

i wana go back just slightly i want to go bck to when u actualy had to find thee entrances to places i used to bump into playuers that used to sit in their corpse because and i quote "i havent a clue where the entrence is and i cba running around trying to find it"

so if blizz makes it so that iin mop that you cant queue for a dungeon till you find the entrance thatll do me id alos like a "find your way to the entrance from the nearest gy" requirement also

[Nadev]

and imo thats a problem now new play during cata could find a dungeon entrance if their life depended on it aleast at the start of cata you needed to find the entrance be4 you could run it, which suited me fine i could avoid grim batol hc on the chars i didnt need anything from theer on since it was hell to pug at the begining of cata the rest were ok

Grim Batol is pure evil. That being said, it's a difficulty for dungeons that I like although the RNG aspects of the third boss make it awful.

[AeneasBK]

Because the content was fresh and relevant as a way to gear up for the first tier of raiding, which made finding groups easy?

... I meant it as a response to the claim that an MMO needs this to make money. Clearly the profits of WoW at Wrath Launch were not too shabby and that was before the production of all the pets and mounts you can buy, or scrolls of resurrection to entice players back...

[RickJamesLich]

I'd like to believe that LFR was created primarily as a way for those without the time commitments (such as myself) to see content, not the people who drool on the keyboard and dps with their face.

It's tough finding a group for content that is outdated. That was my experience throughout Wrath being stuck at Naxx gear levels until all emblems became triumph. PUG groups can take forever to find late at night Saturday night, which was at that time the only time I could play, especially on low population servers. It's also difficult staying in a raiding guild when you don't have the time commitments.

I for one would like more difficult instances, but running from Stormwind to Wailing Caverns or Orgrimmar to Deadmines wasn't fun. Wiping in places like Maraudon wasn't fun.

I will agree that LFR is good for people that have very little time in the week to play, but honestly, I think it kinda killed off a lot of the original things that made the game fun, teaming up with people and making buddies and completing challenges. Honestly, I don't think Deathwing is that fun because you can one shot him on your first try without learning the fight - yes, now people that only play for an hour or 2 a week can kill him, but a lot of the vanilla and BC guys are leaving because of stuff like that.

[Nadev]

... I meant it as a response to the claim that an MMO needs this to make money. Clearly the profits of WoW at Wrath Launch were not too shabby and that was before the production of all the pets and mounts you can buy, or scrolls of resurrection to entice players back...

You could say it's an enticement, but I found it to be a quality of life experience that didn't do anything but make content more accessible.

I will agree, the Algalon ponies are silly and pandering for easy money. Yet, I wouldn't remove them because they don't affect my gameplay or experience one bit.

I will agree that LFR is good for people that have very little time in the week to play, but honestly, I think it kinda killed off a lot of the original things that made the game fun, teaming up with people and making buddies and completing challenges. Honestly, I don't think Deathwing is that fun because you can one shot him on your first try without learning the fight - yes, now people that only play for an hour or 2 a week can kill him, but a lot of the vanilla and BC guys are leaving because of stuff like that.

I'm sorry, but if people are leaving because the capability exists for people to see the content and get vastly inferior loot from it, than that is nothing but their bloated sense of self-importance ego at work. My killing of Deathwing in LFR shouldn't diminish anyone's killing of Deathwing on Normal or Heroic difficulty.

[UunaPriest]

I like LFD, I think it is essential and awesome.
However I think that LFR has greatly reduced my fun in the game.
Since LFR it has become nearly impossible on my realm to find a normal DS Pug to run on my alts.
Sure, I could run LFR, but to me it is so RIDICULOUSLY undertuned that it is less fun than standing in Stormwind and heckling people in trade.

Raiding is the only aspect of the game I really enjoy, occasionally some PvP but not that much... so since LFR really the only thing for me to do is log for raid time and that's it.
Not even worth leveling or gearing another alt because there are no FL Pugs other than Openraid.us, and no DS Pugs for me to do anything on that alt.

TLDR: Keep LFD, ditch LFR (or make it about twice as hard) "Seeing the content" in LFR is no different than watching it on YouTube except you can move your camera around.

[thunderdragon2]

I'm sorry, but if people are leaving because the capability exists for people to see the content and get vastly inferior loot from it, than that is nothing but their bloated sense of self-importance ego at work. My killing of Deathwing in LFR shouldn't diminish anyone's killing of Deathwing on Normal or Heroic difficulty.

you are right there m8

you killing deathwing on lfr dosent diminish my killing (or trying to kill) spine on heroic in the slightest

and no im not being sarcastic

[NotValidAnymore]

PEOPLE ruin WoW gameplay.

Dunno why you would think otherwise.

[thunderdragon2]

I like LFD, I think it is essential and awesome.
However I think that LFR has greatly reduced my fun in the game.
Since LFR it has become nearly impossible on my realm to find a normal DS Pug to run on my alts.
Sure, I could run LFR, but to me it is so RIDICULOUSLY undertuned that it is less fun than standing in Stormwind and heckling people in trade.

Raiding is the only aspect of the game I really enjoy, occasionally some PvP but not that much... so since LFR really the only thing for me to do is log for raid time and that's it.
Not even worth leveling or gearing another alt because there are no FL Pugs other than Openraid.us, and no DS Pugs for me to do anything on that alt.

TLDR: Keep LFD, ditch LFR (or make it about twice as hard) "Seeing the content" in LFR is no different than watching it on YouTube except you can move your camera around.

hmm if they made lfr harder people might actualy learn somthing they could take in to normal like clicking the button on ultraxion imo they shoulda added fading light to dps on lfr on that fight

[Nadev]

I like LFD, I think it is essential and awesome.
However I think that LFR has greatly reduced my fun in the game.
Since LFR it has become nearly impossible on my realm to find a normal DS Pug to run on my alts.
Sure, I could run LFR, but to me it is so RIDICULOUSLY undertuned that it is less fun than standing in Stormwind and heckling people in trade.

Raiding is the only aspect of the game I really enjoy, occasionally some PvP but not that much... so since LFR really the only thing for me to do is log for raid time and that's it.
Not even worth leveling or gearing another alt because there are no FL Pugs other than Openraid.us, and no DS Pugs for me to do anything on that alt.

TLDR: Keep LFD, ditch LFR (or make it about twice as hard) "Seeing the content" in LFR is no different than watching it on YouTube except you can move your camera around.

I'm all for upgrading LFR from faceroll to easy.

[Deleted]

It's pretty good actually.

Hey, the guild needs a new Xole/class or you just feel like rolling one? Just change your spec or log into your alt and grind for a couple weeks and you're ready to get into DS normal.

We just had a bunch of players returning to WoW after months (or even years) away so we turned from a 10-man guild with hardly enough people to raid to a guild that is 3~4 players shy of making two 25-man raids at the same time. We shifted to 25-man, helped folks gear up in LFR and etc and we're already 4/8hc after only 2 weeks.

[Destruktion]

Sometimes it's the bonus stuff without meaningful character progression that people enjoy the most. You know, like vanilla open world pvp that old timers always talk about. Some might say that the attitude that you won't do something unless you get meaningful character progression out of it was the downfall of WoW.

Fair point, but keep in mind character progression can refer to a lot of things. Some people include achievement hunting under that term, though I am more conservative than that. In classic, character progression can refer to simple things like obtaining a rare crafting recipe, becoming Exalted with a particularly grindy faction, completing an attunement chain, earning your epic ground mount, farming gold in an elite area, earning a PvP title, and then of course running dungeons/raids and upgrading your gear. These progression avenues are still present to some extent in Cataclysm. The difference is that almost everything listed up there has been funneled into raid progression, which made maximum progression in all areas mandatory for anyone who wants to play the endgame.

In short, what I am saying is that I agree with you.

I don't see at all how the motivation to run dungeons has changed between vanilla and today. You run it to get gear. Whether from boss drops or tokens. Today people who don't need any gear at all might still run a dungeon for achievements or rep. If anything, there are more reasons to run dungeons today than there were in vanilla when people ran Scholo countless times just to get a stupid tier 0 drop. Why else might someone be making their 12th run of Scholo if not because of gear?

On one hand you have a difficult, and thus committed dungeon run that does not guarantee you completion, let alone gear rewards.
On the other hand, you have a fairly easy and short-lived dungeon run that guarantees not only completion, but also points that can be spent on a multitude of different rewards.
In both cases, players are driven by the promise of rewards. In the first case, rewards are scarce, thus the motivation to seek them is lessened. In the second case, rewards are plentiful, thus the motivation to seek them is in overdrive. This idea of reward motivation underlies the mechanics of addiction.

Things are only going to get worse in Mists of Pandaria. The death knell is that luck charm thing that is purchasable from reputation vendors that allows you an extra roll in LFR. Many players continue on with the casual vs. hardcore debate, but this discussion here has made me realize that in reality both playstyles are actually hardcore. The last time WoW was truly made for casual gamers was classic.

[aztr0]

People who can't see the issues with LFG/LFR got issues.

I really would like to hear what you got to say. What issues exactly? Please do enlighten me and allow me to see the light and believe that the alternative to not having LFR or LFD is good for WoW gameplay, after I have experienced life without these tools first hand before the expansions.

[Nadev]

I really would like to hear what you got to say. What issues exactly? Please do enlighten me and allow me to see the light and believe that the alternative to not having LFR or LFD is good for WoW gameplay, after I have experienced life without these tools first hand before the expansions.

The fact that it makes "epics less epic" and other self-absorbed nonsense.

[aztr0]

The fact that it makes "epics less epic" and other self-absorbed nonsense.

There is no other way to respond to those types of people other than to

[Flaks]

And here's another example of somebody who never seen the game before LFD.

Unless you were a tank or healer, the instance queues* were easily 3-4 hours during vanilla and 2-3 hours in TBC in medium pop realm.


*spamming trade and lfg channels

That's funny because making generalizations from anecdotal evidence makes you wrong in 99% of cases.

Example: I NEVER EVER had to wait more than 30 minutes as dps in TBC in a LOW POP REALM (US Kalecgos).

Sadly the addition of LFD/LFR, just like flying mounts, is here to stay if only because life without it after having it is going to inconvenience a lot of players that have gotten used to this style of play. I'll continue using my ground mount and grouping with friends though. But the instant port to dungeons is just sooo....mandatory it feels like.

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 05:12 AM ----------

There is no other way to respond to those types of people other than to

LFD and flying mounts together gutted world PvP. Before LFD I remember flying to Nexus in 3.0 and still having world PvP from time to time. I remember having loads of world PvP in front of the hellfire ramparts portal enterance. I NEVER saw pvp in front of Magtheridon's Lair portal.

[Nadev]

But the instant port to dungeons is just sooo....mandatory it feels like.

Because as much as you don't want to admit, it's neither fun nor hardcore to spend 20 minutes running to the dungeon's entrance.

[Bladesyphon]

Pro Tip: Waiting to play a game you're paying monthly for is not, by default, a good design decision.

Everyone screaming about how the servers had a better sense of community, and how everyone was happy fun time ponies back in Classic and Pre-BC are wearing nostalgia glasses, plain and simple.

Here's the gist of what you're trying to argue: Unless you are in a guild that plays at prime time like everyone else in the game, you are sol when it comes to running dungeons and that's...Okay? This is somehow something that Blizzard should aim for? They should alienate the people that only have a few hours a day, if that, to play and say "Sorry, get out, you can't play our game because you aren't playing at the right time." This is the issue SWOTOR has right now, and it's what's killing the game. If you don't play late hours, when your server is bustling the most, you aren't getting anything done, period.

People that can only play a few hours in the morning, afternoon, or graveyard hours due to their work constraints should, if I'm reading this right, simply not be allowed to do group content easily because they aren't playing when everyone else is, and people are actually saying this is okay. And don't even get me started on the fallacies of "well join a guild and play with the people on your friends list" argument.

Unless your Friends List is several hundred people long, and your guild has a consistent active roster of some one hundred + players, you are going to run into the simple issues of:
-No one is online right now to play with
or
-The people online right now don't feel like doing dungeons with me.

Now what? Without LFD/LFR, you get to go spam trade, and if you aren't doing that at a reasonable hour, you aren't getting a group...so yeah, time to go sit down and play another game..when you're pay $15 a month to play it. That makes zero sense, sorry. One should not have to wait to play a game, period (unless of course said game needs to patch).

If I want to play Dark Souls, I put in the disk, turn my PS3 on, and immediately jump into the game. I do not need to sit there and wait to find people to play with. If I want to play a multiplayer FPS or RTS, I start the game, hit match making (or find a server), hit play, and hey presto, I'm playing a game. It has nothing to do with being entitled, nor does it have anything to do with the age old argument of "Gamers these days have no paitence".

You payed $60 for the game, you are paying $15 a month to continue to play the game. You should not have to sit in a capital city and spam trade for upwards of an hour to get into a group to do high-end content on the character you want to play. You should not have to bench that character and go play an alt because you can't get groups.

LFD and LFR has allowed every player in WoW to now play the game as they wish, with whichever character they wish. And you know what's really amazing? It even has a feature in there that's just like pre-bc and BC. If you only want to play with friends, why you can just invite your friends/guildies to your group, hit a button, and off you go!

The arguments that LFD and LFR are bad for the game are bullocks, as are arguments that they've ruined the community, because I'll let you in on a little secret: There were just as many ass-hats back in pre-bc and BC running 5-mans as there are today, because if you were in a big active raiding guild, you had no reason to be nice to random people you picked up in your trade groups, as even if they "blacklisted" you, you could just as easily go run with your guild later that evening and do content they were never going to see anyways.

[SamR]

Example: I NEVER EVER had to wait more than 30 minutes as dps in TBC in a LOW POP REALM (US Kalecgos).

I guess you can try to convince people who didn't play that TBC heroic groups were super easy to come by, but those of us who also played during TBC can see through your interesting claims.

Heck, right now there's probably someone on the SWTOR forums arguing that they don't need LFD because he can find a group in 20 minutes anytime he wants.