[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[Biomega]

Don't forget that "having fun" is an incentive, same as "getting gear" is; the difference is that it's much, much harder to quantify and implement. Ideally, everyone would be doing things in the game simply because they are awesome to do, and all the rewards would be incidental benefits. That's how hardcore raiders operate, for the most part, i.e. they don't care about loot except as a means to an end.

The loot-carrot is so popular because it is such a simple solution. Dangle rewards in front of people, and they'll keep doing stuff no matter how repetitive and boring it is, just to get the reward. It keeps people playing, and requires less of an investment than the alternative (because content is repeated, and thus stretched to last longer). The problem of course is that it breeds problematic behavior in players; pretty soon, nothing will seem worth doing, unless it comes with a tangible, "useful" reward attached. That's what happened to WoW, and that's what most people who criticize the carrot bring up as an argument most often - rightly so, too.

But whether you like it or not, you can't deny that it keeps populations up and going. It's simply so much harder to achieve the same thing through different means, which is why "raiding", i.e. endgame group content, is such a popular inclusion for MMOs. It creates an artificial extension of content to be sure, but what else can you do? Exploration and an "epic world" only last so long; two, three months into the game, a lot of people will have seen it all, and then what?

You decry raiders as a social group you'd rather exclude from TESO - but by what right? Why should they not have a place in the game, but you (and your respective demographic category) should? Of course, I'm by no means saying that raiding in the sense of WoW's model is the end-all be-all of endgame content; but some sort of endgame group content is simply required to sustain an MMO. Also, don't forget that TESO is a big-budget release, and as such they will need a certain number of active players in order to sustain themselves. More players means more budget for new content, and that new content benefits everyone. In a way, raiders make it possible for other people to get the stuff THEY enjoy, too (simply speaking, of course). The alternative is people enjoying TESO as the new Elder Scrolls title, treating it the same way as their predecessors: playing the heck out of it for two months, then dropping it. And that would hurt everyone, casuals and raiders alike.

[Ebonheart]

Have they said why they're releasing their verions of "raids" or end-game content 3 months after launch?

The game dosn't have a release date yet, does it? They've got no-one with a gun to their head telling them when to release, so what's with the "Well, we'll just with hold this extra game content for no reason other than we can!". What's stopping them from bringing out the game WITH all that good stuff?

Of course they have explained themselves even though they didn't need to. They are planning for a very smooth launch day to avoid too many complications if bugs to arise. This way they can focus on improving and providing an engaging and awesome levelling experience.

The thing that annoys me about most critics is that, sure you may not like something about the game, but at least deal in facts and not talk out of your ass. It clearly shows how ignorant you really are.

ZMO isn't Blizzard. They don't hold content patches for months on end and then simply release rehashed content.

Adventure Zones are going to be your typical "raids". However, you do have Heroic version with further story lines and additional bosses of regular dungeons that are being released with the game.

If you think racing to end game to raid for 3-4 weeks and then take a break is a way of playing the game, a wast majority of people don't think the way you do. That is what the hardcore of the hardcore raiding population does in WoW. They practices and fine tune basic heroic strategies on the PTR, they blow through the levels of the new expansion in 24 hours and then the raids in less than a month and take a break until the next patch.

The sad thing is Blizzard promotes this game play. However, they do know that in the long run it hurts them financially. So therefore at the start of MoP they actually had something akin to a gating system with raids unlocking after weeks so people couldn't just blow through content.

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 07:27 PM ----------

The loot-carrot is so popular because it is such a simple solution. Dangle rewards in front of people, and they'll keep doing stuff no matter how repetitive and boring it is, just to get the reward. It keeps people playing, and requires less of an investment than the alternative (because content is repeated, and thus stretched to last longer). The problem of course is that it breeds problematic behavior in players; pretty soon, nothing will seem worth doing, unless it comes with a tangible, "useful" reward attached. That's what happened to WoW, and that's what most people who criticize the carrot bring up as an argument most often - rightly so, too.

But whether you like it or not, you can't deny that it keeps populations up and going. It's simply so much harder to achieve the same thing through different means, which is why "raiding", i.e. endgame group content, is such a popular inclusion for MMOs. It creates an artificial extension of content to be sure, but what else can you do? Exploration and an "epic world" only last so long; two, three months into the game, a lot of people will have seen it all, and then what?

The loot-carrot is popular cause Blizzard found an easier way of prolonging content with limited investment. I mean how easy is it to simply balance numbers rather than release an entire new raid. So what did they do? They introduced Heroic Raids in ICC.

Now they feel LFR serves as a fill in or catch up for people returning to the games. So again you have limited investment for maximum gain. You will never see any of the epic 5 man dungeons in future patches like the ICC Heroic ones.

Like you said, "nothing will seem worth doing". That is the major drawback about this system and its easy for players to feel things ain't worth their effort. So many guilds simply gave up half way through the last tier of raiding. So many more ain't even making an effort this tier. Why do people have to actually make an effort, when you can queue in the LFR and down content at your own pace?

The early MMOs were not built on the "loot carrot" principle. MMOs were built on the players. Content was added by the players. Campaigns were started between different guilds. The sad thing, we have lost the basic essence of what an MMO is. And right now all MMOs are so heavily loot related.

When WoW was at its early stage, you literally had different type of players. You had the raiders that truly loved to raid and enjoyed it. You had the people that enjoyed doing stuff in the world, you had the PVPers and no one cared about "loot" in particular. It was a reward if you put in the effort. However, these days its all about the same goal. You are forced into doing something cause its all locked to the same channels. You need to spend your Valor Points, do dailies and earn rep with factions. First of all the whole concept of gearing through Valor Points should never have been implemented.

You decry raiders as a social group you'd rather exclude from TESO - but by what right? Why should they not have a place in the game, but you (and your respective demographic category) should? Of course, I'm by no means saying that raiding in the sense of WoW's model is the end-all be-all of endgame content; but some sort of endgame group content is simply required to sustain an MMO. Also, don't forget that TESO is a big-budget release, and as such they will need a certain number of active players in order to sustain themselves. More players means more budget for new content, and that new content benefits everyone. In a way, raiders make it possible for other people to get the stuff THEY enjoy, too (simply speaking, of course). The alternative is people enjoying TESO as the new Elder Scrolls title, treating it the same way as their predecessors: playing the heck out of it for two months, then dropping it. And that would hurt everyone, casuals and raiders alike.

Let me say this, raiders of today were nothing like the raiders of the past. Raiders today are simply selfish, egotistical and ignorant suffering from special snowflake syndrome. However, raiders expect everything to be catered to their needs. Raiders of today sole intention is to burn through content as fast as possible. It is in fact this demographic that hurts the developers the most cause they stick around only as long as content is fresh. What do you think the top guilds do? They plow through heroic content the first couple weeks raiding 15+ hours a day, then once they have completed progression most take breaks and do not return till the next patch and its rinse and repeat. However, this play style hurts the game in the long run.

[Zeek Daniels]

Let me say this, raiders of today were nothing like the raiders of the past. Raiders today are simply selfish, egotistical and ignorant suffering from special snowflake syndrome. However, raiders expect everything to be catered to their needs. Raiders of today sole intention is to burn through content as fast as possible. It is in fact this demographic that hurts the developers the most cause they stick around only as long as content is fresh. What do you think the top guilds do? They plow through heroic content the first couple weeks raiding 15+ hours a day, then once they have completed progression most take breaks and do not return till the next patch and its rinse and repeat. However, this play style hurts the game in the long run.

Its not raiders but gamers in general. Theres a reason ppl who bought GW2 and quit a few weeks later. They got to max and said "now what do i do". Some players are in such a hurry to play a game that they miss the real content. They miss playing in a virtual world, they are so fixated on getting to the end that they blow through all the stuff that makes a MMO an MMO. And its not just MMO's its other games as well.

[xxf2dxx]

They said it "probably" won't be in for launch, so I guess there's still a small chance they will get in for launch. I'm kind of confused too. Why push the game out when it's not ready? I'm guessing they're being pressured by deadlines.

I feel like I've heard this before... It's cool, you can just buy the season pass for TESO and get all the DLC plus a nice bonus skin for your horse in game!

[Likometa]

I think Biomega's last few posts have been spot on.

Looking at end game content that WAS is not relevant. As a gaming playerbase and culture we have learned what we like and what to expect.

WoW's model is very successful because they reward you in the same way that gambling rewards you. You do something, you have a chance to get something that you want. People want to be king of the hill or have increased power for the most part.

FPS games give you titles and ranks(they also let you get better gear but in only a minor way). The Eve system is almost the same as WoW's, you go do the most challenging and risky content to get a chance at the best loot(Wormholes). Eve doesn't need to create new content as quickly as WoW because when you die, there is a significant "gold sink".

You can look at Diablo as well. The incentive to keep playing is to get better and better loot. The devs in diablo didn't offer enough challenge at end game so they introduced paragon levels and monster power and are working on pvp.

If you want people to keep coming back, you need to give them a reason to, and that is not exploration. They keep playing for the rewards or titles, and WoW has an amazing ability to give people these things. It does as some have pointed out, lead to problems when you continue to increase player power because then players outgrow content and you need to introduce new content. So Blizzard has a problem of releasing enough content fast enough to keep all of it's ever more powerful players continuing to play. Without a doubt though, Blizzard's system is amazing at keeping players continuing to play.

In TEO, we hope for something different than WoW, something with more meaning and more depth. But you can't dismiss how successful the model is. When games fail to provide the incentive at the end game(like swtor or GW2), you can make a great game, but you cannot retain your playerbase.

[Deleted]

you can make a great game, but you cannot retain your playerbase.

The Guildwars community would like a word with you...

[Biomega]

The Guildwars community would like a word with you...

Regardless of absolute numbers, be it SWTOR or GW2 or whatever new MMO, one fact remains: a lot of people have stopped playing them. As the company behind those games, I'd immediately ask WHY? And the answer will probably be the same in both cases: lack of endgame content.

That's not to say these games can't survive on these smaller playerbases, nor that the companies didn't plan for it; it's simply the reason why a lot of people tend to quit these games. If I was putting out TEOS, I'd think very long and very hard about that, and its implications. No doubt this is being done as we speak, but as always it's a tradeoff situation. Making new content, even carrot-driven content, takes resources; potentially more than it would generate in the long run. I'm just worried that the playing experience may suffer because of it, as it did in SWTOR. Of course, that's my personal, subjective viewpoint, based on the things I'm looking for in a new game. But I'm sure there are at least some people out there who share my tastes and, consequently, my concerns as well.

[Edge-]

Regardless of absolute numbers, be it SWTOR or GW2 or whatever new MMO, one fact remains: a lot of people have stopped playing them. As the company behind those games, I'd immediately ask WHY? And the answer will probably be the same in both cases: lack of endgame content.

That's not the reason in many cases and is simplifying things beyond all belief. People quit many of these games before they even hit max level, meaning that they haven't even seen whatever "lack" of endgame content there may or may not be.

Why do people quit? Because they buy into pre-launch hype and are disappointed that the game doesn't live up to their imaginary standards. They found some aspect of the game (art, combat, secondary systems etc) they don't like enough to quit. They get bored with the leveling in the game (Tera) and can't bring themselves to finish leveling. Leveling content was unfinished (AoC). The game was in a barely playable state due to bugs (Vanguard). The game doesn't offer enough value for what is being delivered. Etc. etc. etc.

Most people who quit SWTOR (by EA's own admission) quit because of the subscription fee. For GW2, I would imagine the non-traditional "endgame" turned off some players, but we don't have any indication as to how much the playerbase has dropped.

A game with a ton of endgame content, Rift, does reasonably well but is hardly some giant powerhouse. Rift has had more endgame content than any other game, and throughout all of classic put out more content and features in the 1.5 years than most games put out in an entire expansion (i.e. Rift's post launch content patches were broader in scope than most games expansions + content patches combined). Rift is hardly a game lacking any endgame content, yet tons of people have quit. That kinda throws a wrench in the "endgame is everything" argument.

[Deleted]

Regardless of absolute numbers, be it SWTOR or GW2 or whatever new MMO, one fact remains: a lot of people have stopped playing them. As the company behind those games, I'd immediately ask WHY? And the answer will probably be the same in both cases: lack of endgame content.

That's not to say these games can't survive on these smaller playerbases, nor that the companies didn't plan for it; it's simply the reason why a lot of people tend to quit these games. If I was putting out TEOS, I'd think very long and very hard about that, and its implications. No doubt this is being done as we speak, but as always it's a tradeoff situation. Making new content, even carrot-driven content, takes resources; potentially more than it would generate in the long run. I'm just worried that the playing experience may suffer because of it, as it did in SWTOR. Of course, that's my personal, subjective viewpoint, based on the things I'm looking for in a new game. But I'm sure there are at least some people out there who share my tastes and, consequently, my concerns as well.

A lot of people have stopped playing WoW too, their subscription base is dwindling rather quickly. And WoW does NOT lack Endgame content.

Can you name me a MMO recently, that didn't take a massive drop in players after its release?
In fact: Can you name me ANY game, where a lot of people haven't just put it down forever after few hours? It's not just MMO that suffer from this.

WoW massive success is due to timing, it had a massive fan-base already and was the first of its kind, they hardly had competition. Now, they do.

[zaxlor]

Of course they have explained themselves even though they didn't need to. They are planning for a very smooth launch day to avoid too many complications if bugs to arise. This way they can focus on improving and providing an engaging and awesome levelling experience.

The thing that annoys me about most critics is that, sure you may not like something about the game, but at least deal in facts and not talk out of your ass. It clearly shows how ignorant you really are.

Well, i'm not a critic. I'm just asking questions. Of course i'm ignorant, if i don't know something! Seems a bit obvious :P Not sure why you had to lay into me like that, I just wanted to know why I should get excited for this game.

ZMO isn't Blizzard. They don't hold content patches for months on end and then simply release rehashed content.

Though, to rebute your previous statement about calling me ignorant, how can you know this? The game isn't out. They've got no track record. Sure, Bethesda have a reputation for their Elder Scrolls games, but we've got no way of knowing how Zenimax is going to handle content, patches, pricing or timing. I get that you're excited for the game, but don't go giving other people false hope. Untill the games been out for a few months, THEN we can start to comment on how they handle their MMO service, not before.

If you think racing to end game to raid for 3-4 weeks and then take a break is a way of playing the game, a wast majority of people don't think the way you do. That is what the hardcore of the hardcore raiding population does in WoW. They practices and fine tune basic heroic strategies on the PTR, they blow through the levels of the new expansion in 24 hours and then the raids in less than a month and take a break until the next patch.

This, I hadn't actually thought about. From their perspective, it's a pretty good idea. It plants a seed of hope in the minds of people who adopt the game early, that soon, real soon, there's going to be new content. It also gives the company a bit of breathing room to deal with critical bugs, see how the servers can handle their load and other various details that only come about once an online game has gone "live".

From me, being a cynic, it's holding the playerbase to ransom. It's the same with LFR, with how it's gated. It's exactly the same with that Wrathion quest that requires you to collect 6000 Justice Points. Considering you can only get 1000 a week, you've got to give Blizzard at least two months of game time. If you want to finish that quest, you've got to do that, no other way around it. That's the kind of thing that I really don't like. Not that i'm expecting to be showered with Legendarys after 3 hours of play time, but it's still annoying. I think they've said that they're lowering the amount that you need now, but either way it's not down to player skill how quickly that quest can be completed, it's all down to money.

Back on point, what's to say this dosn't happen through-out Elder Scrolls online life? Instead of getting say 10 new dungeons for an exspansion, you now get 1 a month. Why would you intentionally choose to NOT ship with content that's complete and just lock it off via gating, which is how Blizzard does it via LFR. Imagine if Blizzard had done that with Throne of Thunder, launching patch 5.2 and saying "The islands open, but the raid won't unlock for Normal, Heroic or LFR difficulty for another 3 months!". Okay, WoW is already live and Elder Scrolls isn't, but I don't get this "Only hardcore race to the end so boo-hoo that only 2% of the player base have nothing to do for 3 months".

My arguments very slippery slope, considering no-one knows anything other than the game devs about their content cycles, it's just confusing to me why this 3 month content gap is so special. Why 3 months? Why not 6? Why not 1? Why not hold off the games launch and release it as a whole, 3 months belated?

If the answer really is as simple as "We don't want burn-out" then the devs need to come out and tell us. If the answer is "We want to gain an extra 3 months sub out of the playerbase, by using end game content as a carrot", that to me is wrong.

[Chickat]

Actually, yeah you do. 500k subs is impressive and a feat that few games can achieve for any length of time. If there were more games with 500k+ subs, you'd see press release after press release about it like EVE has been doing as they've been creeping up to, and then surpassing that point.

You don't compare everything to above and beyond leader in a pack.

Oh, your game sold 5 million copies in the first week and had a small development budget? It's not wildly successful, this game sold that in the first day with a massively huge budget and a marketing budget that dwarfs your entire budget.

That's a ridiculous statement and it's false.



Also, not true. GW2 doesn't have an "endgame", yet the game was still doing well months after launch with revenue staying high (over $100M for the quarter after it launched, so no profits from initial sales there) and servers remaining quite active). A game doesn't need a traditional raiding "endgame" in order to be successful. Hell, Rift has one of the best (if not the best) "endgames" in the market and it's nowhere near as successful as WoW.

And gw2 is free after its bought. This is assuming swtor is going to be sub based. Maybe im assuming to much, maybe im jumping to conclusions, but i really want eso to succeed.

[Zeek Daniels]

Regardless of absolute numbers, be it SWTOR or GW2 or whatever new MMO, one fact remains: a lot of people have stopped playing them. As the company behind those games, I'd immediately ask WHY? And the answer will probably be the same in both cases: lack of endgame content.

That's not to say these games can't survive on these smaller playerbases, nor that the companies didn't plan for it; it's simply the reason why a lot of people tend to quit these games. If I was putting out TEOS, I'd think very long and very hard about that, and its implications. No doubt this is being done as we speak, but as always it's a tradeoff situation. Making new content, even carrot-driven content, takes resources; potentially more than it would generate in the long run. I'm just worried that the playing experience may suffer because of it, as it did in SWTOR. Of course, that's my personal, subjective viewpoint, based on the things I'm looking for in a new game. But I'm sure there are at least some people out there who share my tastes and, consequently, my concerns as well.

Remember when blizzard posted numbers that alot of ppl that were quitting their game quit around level 20? Most didnt even make it to 20? This was around the end of wrath.

Some ppl just dont like certain games. They buy it, play it and quit. Some ppl get to the end, others dont make it 5 levels in b4 they stop playing. I know a guy who didnt get past the GW2 tutorial b4 he quit. End-game content is not what keeps 100% of the ppl playing WoW. Only a small portion of WoW players keep playing for your version of "endgame". Most players are content with either PvPing or shocker playing everything but raids. Have to remember forum posters are a minority, were also a "smarter" crowd. But we are not the majority of opinions.

One of the reasons i play GW2 instead of WoW is because im a senior and graduating from college this year. I decided that Raiding was not going to help my grades. I also knew that the only thing i did in WoW since 4.1 was raiding. I had stopped doing dailies all together except for moltenfront because i wanted the title. Other than that my play consisted of logging in on Week nights and raiding. Once raids were over i logged off and didnt do anything else ingame. When i started looking at GW2 i saw they were offereing everything WoW offers except raiding for free. And since i had to quit WoW i got on the GW2 bandwagon during beta and been on it since.

I can play a game and not spend $15 a month and enjoy features other than raiding. In the process i have been apart of 3 of the best events i have ever seen that walk all over anything i had experienced in WoW. GW2's Halloween event, Wintersday, and the recent Super Adventure Box. All 3 of these things are very fun with multiple activities to take part in, with very small incentive to do them.

TESO does not need raiding to be a successfull game to Most players. If it has a sub it needs to have a way to retain its playerbase what ever that method will be. If it doesnt have a sub it just needs to have a profitable Micro transaction store that doesnt pissoff its playerbase.

[Deleted]

My arguments very slippery slope, considering no-one knows anything other than the game devs about their content cycles, it's just confusing to me why this 3 month content gap is so special. Why 3 months? Why not 6? Why not 1? Why not hold off the games launch and release it as a whole, 3 months belated?

If the answer really is as simple as "We don't want burn-out" then the devs need to come out and tell us. If the answer is "We want to gain an extra 3 months sub out of the playerbase, by using end game content as a carrot", that to me is wrong.

The 3 month content delay thing could mean a lot of things but I guess its a choice of what you want to believe in. Honestly, I wouldn't blame them for doing so. It does buy them time to accomplish many things.

...They could be afraid that some people will burn through the content at the release of the game, clean out the end-game content and then begin to bash the game 2-3 weeks in. We've all seen it happen.

...They could be holding it back until everything is running smoothly. When a MMO launches, its generally a bumpy ride, I don't think they'd want people bashing the game for a bad launch followed by being bashed by people who've burnt through the game.

It would be a good idea if they let people get comfortable with the game and give the developers the time they need to react to anything that needs hot fixing before throwing in End-game content into the equation. Its a good idea to take the launch of the game one step at a time, rather than throwing in everything out as polished as say.. World of Warcraft is today, which is what everyone expects! World of Warcraft at release was broken and stupid in a lot of areas, some of the zones weren't even complete (Blizzard Guardians outside of WPL?)

[Ebonheart]

Well, i'm not a critic. I'm just asking questions. Of course i'm ignorant, if i don't know something! Seems a bit obvious :P Not sure why you had to lay into me like that, I just wanted to know why I should get excited for this game.



Though, to rebute your previous statement about calling me ignorant, how can you know this? The game isn't out. They've got no track record. Sure, Bethesda have a reputation for their Elder Scrolls games, but we've got no way of knowing how Zenimax is going to handle content, patches, pricing or timing. I get that you're excited for the game, but don't go giving other people false hope. Untill the games been out for a few months, THEN we can start to comment on how they handle their MMO service, not before.



This, I hadn't actually thought about. From their perspective, it's a pretty good idea. It plants a seed of hope in the minds of people who adopt the game early, that soon, real soon, there's going to be new content. It also gives the company a bit of breathing room to deal with critical bugs, see how the servers can handle their load and other various details that only come about once an online game has gone "live".

From me, being a cynic, it's holding the playerbase to ransom. It's the same with LFR, with how it's gated. It's exactly the same with that Wrathion quest that requires you to collect 6000 Justice Points. Considering you can only get 1000 a week, you've got to give Blizzard at least two months of game time. If you want to finish that quest, you've got to do that, no other way around it. That's the kind of thing that I really don't like. Not that i'm expecting to be showered with Legendarys after 3 hours of play time, but it's still annoying. I think they've said that they're lowering the amount that you need now, but either way it's not down to player skill how quickly that quest can be completed, it's all down to money.

Back on point, what's to say this dosn't happen through-out Elder Scrolls online life? Instead of getting say 10 new dungeons for an exspansion, you now get 1 a month. Why would you intentionally choose to NOT ship with content that's complete and just lock it off via gating, which is how Blizzard does it via LFR. Imagine if Blizzard had done that with Throne of Thunder, launching patch 5.2 and saying "The islands open, but the raid won't unlock for Normal, Heroic or LFR difficulty for another 3 months!". Okay, WoW is already live and Elder Scrolls isn't, but I don't get this "Only hardcore race to the end so boo-hoo that only 2% of the player base have nothing to do for 3 months".

My arguments very slippery slope, considering no-one knows anything other than the game devs about their content cycles, it's just confusing to me why this 3 month content gap is so special. Why 3 months? Why not 6? Why not 1? Why not hold off the games launch and release it as a whole, 3 months belated?

If the answer really is as simple as "We don't want burn-out" then the devs need to come out and tell us. If the answer is "We want to gain an extra 3 months sub out of the playerbase, by using end game content as a carrot", that to me is wrong.

I think you really are cynical about it. I already answered your question regarding the whole "3 month" question. It doesn't matter if they postpone the release of the game to coincide with the raid patch, they don't want to release too many things at one. Some can choose to believe ZMO want your subscription, considering we don't even know what kind of pay model they are going to adopt thus leaving that point pretty invalid or we can take them for their word when they said they are hoping for a smooth launch day without too many avenues to focus on.

The LFR gating has a lot to do with people whinning on the forums about people killing the end boss before raiders can actually kill them on normal mode. I know how hilarious it was when I got to kill Deathwing via the LFR before any guild had managed to kill him on Normal Mode let alone Heroic Mode. That is why Blizzard introduced gating. However, they have introduced artificial gating on other content especially with the JP/VP cap.

Let me ask you this. How many bugs does Blizzard have to go through when releasing a patch? They don't have worry about the entire game crashing. This is a brand new game that is launching.

Do you know when WoW launched in 2004, it had only a single raid i.e Molten Core. It had no WSG or Arathi Basin. Some of the zones were so incomplete they had no quests. People actually had to grind beasts in Silithus from levels 55 onwards. That is what you call an incomplete game. Quests, BGs, and a lot of other stuff were added to the game months down the line.

Acquiring legendaries worked fine until ICC, the moment they made it a grind, that is where it started being a "carrot on stick". Like I said before, developers can develop games according to their design and intention. Blizzard's current game model is to adopt a "carrot on the stick" model. Its a very good model, but not a very good long term plan since people will always leave once they get what they want.

Its keeping people engaged and wanting to come back for more, not for the rewards but for the experience. That distinguishes truly great developers. If you've looked at the games Blizzard has released recently, it all follows a similar model. Similarly with Diablo 3, people bought it, played it, crashed through it and then some never wanted to take another look at it ever again. As a game developer you don't really want that.

Look at games like Morrowind and Skyrim and Oblivion, Morrowind especially. 10 years on and people still go back to play it not cause it was a loot piñata, but because it provided an experience like no other. Similarly with Skyrim, for over 2 years, it topped Steam's best sellers.

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 11:15 PM ----------

That's not the reason in many cases and is simplifying things beyond all belief. People quit many of these games before they even hit max level, meaning that they haven't even seen whatever "lack" of endgame content there may or may not be.

Why do people quit? Because they buy into pre-launch hype and are disappointed that the game doesn't live up to their imaginary standards. They found some aspect of the game (art, combat, secondary systems etc) they don't like enough to quit. They get bored with the leveling in the game (Tera) and can't bring themselves to finish leveling. Leveling content was unfinished (AoC). The game was in a barely playable state due to bugs (Vanguard). The game doesn't offer enough value for what is being delivered. Etc. etc. etc.

Most people who quit SWTOR (by EA's own admission) quit because of the subscription fee. For GW2, I would imagine the non-traditional "endgame" turned off some players, but we don't have any indication as to how much the playerbase has dropped.

A game with a ton of endgame content, Rift, does reasonably well but is hardly some giant powerhouse. Rift has had more endgame content than any other game, and throughout all of classic put out more content and features in the 1.5 years than most games put out in an entire expansion (i.e. Rift's post launch content patches were broader in scope than most games expansions + content patches combined). Rift is hardly a game lacking any endgame content, yet tons of people have quit. That kinda throws a wrench in the "endgame is everything" argument.

Sure I'll agree hype plays an important part. But are you telling me all the BETA testers that came to these very forums saying how amazing the game was and how they would be playing it for 5+ years and had all these good things to say about it didn't know what they were getting into?

I'll also agree on your last point regarding Rift. It only shows how much "end game isn't everything" and its about providing an experience more than anything.

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 11:19 PM ----------

The 3 month content delay thing could mean a lot of things but I guess its a choice of what you want to believe in. Honestly, I wouldn't blame them for doing so. It does buy them time to accomplish many things.

...They could be afraid that some people will burn through the content at the release of the game, clean out the end-game content and then begin to bash the game 2-3 weeks in. We've all seen it happen.

...They could be holding it back until everything is running smoothly. When a MMO launches, its generally a bumpy ride, I don't think they'd want people bashing the game for a bad launch followed by being bashed by people who've burnt through the game.

It would be a good idea if they let people get comfortable with the game and give the developers the time they need to react to anything that needs hot fixing before throwing in End-game content into the equation. Its a good idea to take the launch of the game one step at a time, rather than throwing in everything out as polished as say.. World of Warcraft is today, which is what everyone expects! World of Warcraft at release was broken and stupid in a lot of areas, some of the zones weren't even complete (Blizzard Guardians outside of WPL?)

So true. Why talk about WoW in 2004, you only have to take a look at Diablo 3 that was released last summer and what a terrible launch day it had. That is what you call bad planning on Blizzard's part.

ZMO are expecting a busy launch day and are expecting the weeks ahead to be busy and hectic. They are preparing for it. Releasing too many things at once on a brand new game would only ruin launch day for them.

And going back to Diablo 3, people played the game like there was never a tomorrow. They played it for hours on end just trying to burn through. By the end of it, most hated the game and the grind and vowed never to look at it again. Blizzard however, requires people to keep playing their game, so what do they do? They introduce another grind.

[worprz]

I hope this game has some awesome small scale world pvp or 2v2 arenas. Otherwise I will just stick with GW2

[zito]

And gw2 is free after its bought. This is assuming swtor is going to be sub based. Maybe im assuming to much, maybe im jumping to conclusions, but i really want eso to succeed.

If you have to buy GW2 it's not free. Secondly at this point what you are "fearing" is that eso won't surpass WoW because a game has to surpass WoW or be close to it to be successful right?

[zaxlor]

SNIP

Actually, you're right about getting the normal content "right", considering the end game dosn't matter as much so long as the actual combat mechanics are fun. Not sure why I was all that fussed about the "we're releasing end game after launch" thing, possibly something to do with other people in the thread talking about it. Though I would agree that having something to keep getting you to come back to the game is a big requirement of an MMO. Else, why make it an MMO? If you just play the story and then stop playing at max level, why did the devs even make it online? That's a different argument though.

Considering I'm still playing Skyrim on and off two years after it's come out, shows just how much I enjoy it. I just don't want to see this "Wait 3 months for content" turn into "We're going to drip feed you content that could have been available at launch to fleece more sub/DLC money".

[Deleted]

Actually, you're right about getting the normal content "right", considering the end game dosn't matter as much so long as the actual combat mechanics are fun. Not sure why I was all that fussed about the "we're releasing end game after launch" thing, possibly something to do with other people in the thread talking about it. Though I would agree that having something to keep getting you to come back to the game is a big requirement of an MMO. Else, why make it an MMO? If you just play the story and then stop playing at max level, why did the devs even make it online? That's a different argument though.

You could say just to throw in that online element, as you went onto saying how you've been playing Skyrim on and off for two years after it comes out, imagine doing all that.. with a friend!

Although, I wouldn't scribble out the 'drip feeding' off your list of evil things developers do... it happens.

I do however have a lot of trust in Zenimax and Bethesda (They're both working on ESO) they've never failed me with any Elder Scrolls game, they've all been memorial games that I've spent many hours playing and are all still talked about today, so I trust what ever decisions they make are actually the best choices.

[Ebonheart]

Actually, you're right about getting the normal content "right", considering the end game dosn't matter as much so long as the actual combat mechanics are fun. Not sure why I was all that fussed about the "we're releasing end game after launch" thing, possibly something to do with other people in the thread talking about it. Though I would agree that having something to keep getting you to come back to the game is a big requirement of an MMO. Else, why make it an MMO? If you just play the story and then stop playing at max level, why did the devs even make it online? That's a different argument though.

Considering I'm still playing Skyrim on and off two years after it's come out, shows just how much I enjoy it. I just don't want to see this "Wait 3 months for content" turn into "We're going to drip feed you content that could have been available at launch to fleece more sub/DLC money".

I am glad if I helped in you having a different view of things now.

To be quiet honest I do know that a lot of game developers do something along those lines. That is how we landed up with DLC. Studios like EA and many basically take out things from the game and release it as a DLC thus charging you for it. You are not wrong to be sceptical. I hate this trend as well. However, they seem to have valid reasons and its not like they are going to be charging you for the "adventure zones". They just want a smooth launch day.

Well if you look at the true essence of an MMO, its about doing things in a virtual world. Its about living, breathing and experiencing. That was what MMOs were all about back when Ultima Online came out. It was people and players in the game that added content and created stories and campaigns. Times have changed but the essence of the genre remains the same.

Like you said, a game like Skyrim has no end game and still you play it. Its just not you, there are million of others. Its about living in the world and experiencing things from a different perspective. I've read people's experiences regarding the game and how they play it according to their character. I read about how this one person on his Khagit Assassin would stay away from all holds and cities during the day and only come in at nights. I've read about how a Wood Elvf Hunter that lived in the wild and ignored most quests and lived on food that he had hunted in the wild. There are other such stories and that an MMO is truly about in the end.

However, too often in games such as WoW the levelling experience is often sacrificed for this so called "end game". What is so special about this "end game"?

I have not yet seen an MMO that provides a player with a levelling experience to be remembered or enjoyed. The closest thing I came to were the quests in Northrend. Looking back now I probably wished I spent more time enjoying the experience cause everyone that I spoke to said, " the game starts once you reach level 80". I was so focused on reaching 80 that everything before that was a complete race. And when I got to level 80, I realized I had to farm dungeons and do dailies.

You seem like someone that understands, so lemme say this. You have two very different kinds of people. Those that prefer to experience everything in a couple of days and whine about nothing to do for the next 3 months and those that take their time and enjoy the experience. Even in WoW, you have people burning through content and then sit in the cities whining about lack of content.

When WoW first went live, there were a majority that took over a year to level their toons. Some never managed to get anywhere close to end game.

And just to make it clear, they ain't releasing any end game after launch. The battle in Cyrodil is end game content as well and you have campaigns that play an important role that could take months. You also have Heroic dungeons. They are just not releasing their version of adventure zones at launch. So you will still have plenty to do when you reach the level cap.

---------- Post added 2013-04-06 at 12:04 AM ----------

You could say just to throw in that online element, as you went onto saying how you've been playing Skyrim on and off for two years after it comes out, imagine doing all that.. with a friend!

Although, I wouldn't scribble out the 'drip feeding' off your list of evil things developers do... it happens.

I do however have a lot of trust in Zenimax and Bethesda (They're both working on ESO) they've never failed me with any Elder Scrolls game, they've all been memorial games that I've spent many hours playing and are all still talked about today, so I trust what ever decisions they make are actually the best choices.

So true. There is a reason people keep going back to playing Morrowind years after it was launched. It may not have the best graphics. But it was something truly epic way ahead of anything for its time. It provided an "experience" like no other. Skyrim took it to another level with its very engaging experience. The world made you feel like you were in there. Bethesda delivers and even though they may not be directly involved, its their IP. They wouldn't want their IP to get screwed over considering they have plans for future TES RPGs.

And I can only imagine how amazing a TES MMO can be considering the limitations in an RPG.

[Lemmiwink]

That's not the reason in many cases and is simplifying things beyond all belief. People quit many of these games before they even hit max level, meaning that they haven't even seen whatever "lack" of endgame content there may or may not be.

Why do people quit? Because they buy into pre-launch hype and are disappointed that the game doesn't live up to their imaginary standards. They found some aspect of the game (art, combat, secondary systems etc) they don't like enough to quit. They get bored with the leveling in the game (Tera) and can't bring themselves to finish leveling. Leveling content was unfinished (AoC). The game was in a barely playable state due to bugs (Vanguard). The game doesn't offer enough value for what is being delivered. Etc. etc. etc.

Most people who quit SWTOR (by EA's own admission) quit because of the subscription fee. For GW2, I would imagine the non-traditional "endgame" turned off some players, but we don't have any indication as to how much the playerbase has dropped.

A game with a ton of endgame content, Rift, does reasonably well but is hardly some giant powerhouse. Rift has had more endgame content than any other game, and throughout all of classic put out more content and features in the 1.5 years than most games put out in an entire expansion (i.e. Rift's post launch content patches were broader in scope than most games expansions + content patches combined). Rift is hardly a game lacking any endgame content, yet tons of people have quit. That kinda throws a wrench in the "endgame is everything" argument.

Tera - Boring as hell leveling/grinding process. I believe this was a huge turn off for alot of people. At least for me. Also, the english was horrible.

AoC- Good point on the unfinished part. Funcom is really a crappy developer. I don't like to say it since I am Norwegian too, but they really are. So much overcomplicating everything and trying to make smart-ass solutions that only works if you got <20ms of latency. Ganking and griefing in general was also very off-putting.

SWTOR: People did not do a mass exodus over sub fees. That is complete BS. The lack of will to fix bugs, the creeping feeling you got that they never intended to actually add to the game after launch and 90% of players more or less playing alone on one of the 459 servers for 5 months killed the game. They forgot the game completely and started "Working" on server transfers while giving us "quality-of-life" features that should have been there from the start. Did I mention all the bugs? Did I mention the 964 minutes spent every week watching load-screens? The game was just horribly unfinished, the raids were actually fun. There was too few bosses though, but they were fun.

GW2: I don't believe that game still has most the population active. I think it has a fair amount of active players, but no one who likes PvE and group play liked the GW2 model in my experience. I tried it, didn't see what was so fun with all the zerging and random events. I absolutely hated the corpse-run to beat encounters playstyle instead of just using some loose trinity.

Rift: The game is awesome at end-game, I think all agree. The only problem with Rift is, it's a really uninspiring boring world to level up in. The quests are uninspired and you feel like doing a big-ass chore just to get to max level. If that game had been more leveling friendly and fun I believe it could actually compete with WoW in Europe and America. It's end-game is actually fantastic. They just forgot to make it fun to level up. The lore can also get a bit shallow and one-sided, which makes it even more boring to level up.

Thinking end-game doesn't matter is just plain wrong imo. If there is little to do in the elder-game, people will quit. Simple as that. When 10 people quit, 10 more will follow. They need to lure in new players to cover up for those losses. If there is no carrot at the end of the road, there is no recruitment. I'm not saying raiding is the only answer, but not including it is ignorant as one of the best community builders are so-called "hero-raid-guilds" that inspires others. I believe PvP, small group content, solo content and raiding is equally important if you want to increase the life expectancy of your game. If you lack one or more of these, you will have a dying game quite fast. Another important part is the leveling experience, it needs to be fun. That is the most important factor tbh since you won't have anyone doing the end-game if only 1 in 50 players actually gets to max level.

I think TESO will nail these with time though, just for the record. I simply refuse to believe that after 6 years of making failed MMO's the industry is still oblivious as to which demographic is playing their games. They have to have learned by now. Making fail MMO's sounds extremely expensive.

My wishes for TESO: Fun leveling experience. Solo content at level 50 (confirmed by ZOS), small group dungeons and heroic that is more than just more HP etc. (confirmed), Epic large scale warlike PvP, a sensible daily quest system, mini-games and/or competitions, lots of hidden easter eggs, a good achievement system, 1 raid difficulty/size with required attunements (a long shot but I want that), something to collect (mounts, pets etc.)