Going Vegetarian

[NineSpine]

Well. Technically, we humans are Omnivores, not Herbivores or Carnivores

A balanced, healthy diet should include foods from ALL the major food groups including meat

Why????????

[BLCalliente]

Why????????

Because that's what he heard, dude.

[Quick Ben]

Because that's what he heard, dude.

Touche. You certainly showed him. I don't think he will be back after this!

I was responding to a point. Don't treat my comment like it had no context. I don't have to jump through any hoops to get necessary nutrients. It's not even something I have to think about. The idea that you have to think carefully and act cautiously to eat healthy without meat is no different than saying you have to think carefully and act cautiously to eat healthy without tomatoes.

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 06:13 PM ----------

You would have to go to ridiculous extremes to come up with a diet that is unhealthy and then magically becomes healthy simply by adding meat to it.

I know perfectly well what you were responding to. And don't become all defensive when your post is commented on. Let me bring your attention to some mainstream practices that you are no doubt aware of:
1. Vegans supplement their food with a variety of compounds, including vitamins and minerals.
2. Vegetarians have to make sure that their food is not all green and includes legumes ti ensure they get enough protein.
3. A multitude of websites cater to a vegetarian lifestyle and are essential in imparting knowledge about how to be a vegetarian and still have a balanced diet. This is probably why "I don't have to jump through any hoops to get necessary nutrients. It's not even something I have to think about".

Rest of your comments don't make sense to me at all. Are you really asking me what meat brings to the table? Do we really need to have this conversation? As I said, look up the link that I posted and it will tell you what a balanced diet is and if you need more information it will provide you what nutrient has what function and what the best source is.

[NineSpine]

Touche. You certainly showed him. I don't think he will be back after this!



I know perfectly well what you were responding to. And don't become all defensive when your post is commented on. Let me bring your attention to some mainstream practices that you are no doubt aware of:
1. Vegans supplement their food with a variety of compounds, including vitamins and minerals.

So do bodybuilders and lots of other people. Supplement-mania is in no way exclusive to vegans or vegetarians, and it's in fact not nearly as pronounced as it is for athletes.

2. Vegetarians have to make sure that their food is not all green and includes legumes ti ensure they get enough protein.

You would have to go out of your way to get too little protein. There is protein in almost everything you eat. It's not even something you have to think about. Why would someone only eat green things? This doesn't make any sense. You are acting like vegetarians or vegans eat nothing but salad. WHO WOULD DO THAT? That's like insisting that if you eat meat you need to be careful not to eat nothing but cheeseburgers.

3. A multitude of websites cater to a vegetarian lifestyle and are essential in imparting knowledge about how to be a vegetarian and still have a balanced diet. This is probably why "I don't have to jump through any hoops to get necessary nutrients. It's not even something I have to think about".

If you eat like shit, you eat like shit. That's the point. Meat is inconsequential to that. It takes identical effort to eat a healthy, balanced vegetarian diet as it does to eat a healthy, balanced omnivorous diet. Meat is not some panacea. Eating it doesn't make you healthy by default, and adding meat to a shitty diet won't make that shitty diet healthy.

Rest of your comments don't make sense to me at all. Are you really asking me what meat brings to the table? Do we really need to have this conversation? As I said, look up the link that I posted and it will tell you what a balanced diet is and if you need more information it will provide you what nutrient has what function and what the best source is.

What nutrient do I need to eat meat to get a decent amount of? Answer: None.

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 07:34 PM ----------

There's really zero difference between insisting that you need to eat meat to be healthy and insisting that you need to eat cauliflower to be healthy. One type of food does not make you healthy or unhealthy. It's absurd.

[BLCalliente]

Touche. You certainly showed him. I don't think he will be back after this!

Thanks, I thought the level of thought that went into my response was commensurate with the level of thought that went into his post.

I know perfectly well what you were responding to. And don't become all defensive when your post is commented on. Let me bring your attention to some mainstream practices that you are no doubt aware of:
1. Vegans supplement their food with a variety of compounds, including vitamins and minerals.
2. Vegetarians have to make sure that their food is not all green and includes legumes ti ensure they get enough protein.
3. A multitude of websites cater to a vegetarian lifestyle and are essential in imparting knowledge about how to be a vegetarian and still have a balanced diet. This is probably why "I don't have to jump through any hoops to get necessary nutrients. It's not even something I have to think about".

Rest of your comments don't make sense to me at all. Are you really asking me what meat brings to the table? Do we really need to have this conversation? As I said, look up the link that I posted and it will tell you what a balanced diet is and if you need more information it will provide you what nutrient has what function and what the best source is.

1) Omnivores supplement their food with a variety of compounds, including vitamins and minerals.
2) Omnivores have to make sure their food isn't all red and includes green vegetables to ensure they get enough of everything else.
3) A multitude of websites cater to an omnivore lifestyle and are essential in imparting knowledge on how to be an omnivore and still have a balanced diet.

What does meat bring to the table? Well, it brings protein, iron, and some required amino acids, all of which are readily available in vegetable form. It also brings lots of unhealthy fat (as opposed to healthy fats like in olives or avocados), plenty of hormones (mmmmm, rBGH! tasty) and a considerably higher dollar to nutrient content ratio.

In short, there are only a few things that you can get from eating meat, all of which are very easily attainable in a vegetarian diet.

[Pud'n]

Really? Well somebody better tell the orangutans of the world that they are doing it wrong by being herbivores:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LbccUVbSRd...utan,+Male.jpg

And the gorillas:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/...14_468x309.jpg

Balance doesn't have anything to do with meat or plant products. That's like saying you can't have a balanced diet if you don't eat broccoli.

You do realize humans =/= orangutans/gorillas right?

Humans EVOLVED into being sustained by an omnivore diet. Just like how orangutans & gorillas evolved into being dependent on mainly an all fruit/vegetable diet.

But that's besides the point considering orangutans & gorillas aren't even vegetarians to begin with....

[Quick Ben]

You would have to go out of your way to get too little protein. There is protein in almost everything you eat. It's not even something you have to think about. Why would someone only eat green things? This doesn't make any sense. You are acting like vegetarians or vegans eat nothing but salad. WHO WOULD DO THAT? That's like insisting that if you eat meat you need to be careful not to eat nothing but cheeseburgers.

If you eat like shit, you eat like shit. That's the point. Meat is inconsequential to that. It takes identical effort to eat a healthy, balanced vegetarian diet as it does to eat a healthy, balanced omnivorous diet. Meat is not some panacea. Eating it doesn't make you healthy by default, and adding meat to a shitty diet won't make that shitty diet healthy.

What nutrient do I need to eat meat to get a decent amount of? Answer: None.

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 07:34 PM ----------

There's really zero difference between insisting that you need to eat meat to be healthy and insisting that you need to eat cauliflower to be healthy. One type of food does not make you healthy or unhealthy. It's absurd.

Protein makes about 650 calories of a daily meal and this is how much protein you can get in different food groups.

Meats
Beef (6 oz.) – 54 grams
Turkey, breast (6 oz.) – 51.4 grams
Pork Chop (6 oz.) 49 grams
Turkey, dark meat (6 oz.) – 48.6 grams
Hamburger (6 oz.) – 48.6 grams
Chicken, dark meat (6 oz.) – 47.2 grams
Tuna (6 oz.) – 40.1 grams
Chicken, breast (6 oz.) – 37.8 grams
Salmon (6 oz.) – 33.6 grams

Dairy/Eggs
Cottage cheese (1 cup) – 28.1 grams
Yogurt, low fat (1 cup) – 10.7 grams
Skim milk (1 cup) – 8.3 grams
Whole milk (1 cup) – 8 grams
American cheese (1 oz.) – 7 grams
Soymilk (6 oz.) – 6.7 grams
Egg (1 large) – 6.3 grams

Beans and Legumes, Nuts
Tofu (6 oz.) – 13.8 grams
Peanut Butter (2 Tbsp.) – 8.1 grams
Almond Butter (2 Tbsp.) – 7 grams
Lentils (1/2 cup) – 9 grams
Split Peas (1/2 cup) – 8.1 grams
Kidney Beans (1/2 cup) – 7.6 grams
Sesame Seeds (1 oz.) – 7.5 grams
Black Beans (1/2 cup) – 7.5 grams
Fruits and Vegetables
Orange (large) – 1.7 grams
Banana (medium) – 1.2 grams
Green Beans (1/2 cup) – 1 gram
Carrots (1/2 cup) – .8 gram
Apple (large) – 0 grams
(Source: The Harvard School of Public Health and Northwestern University)

As I said, it is easy to get the appropriate amount of protein needed from meat, or you can jump through hoops and get what you need from vegetarian and vegan sources. Your choice. You can be healthy either way. Or as you said, if you eat like shit, you eat like shit.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

[Taygete]

To the OP... a balanced diet is a balanced diet, generally speaking if you include more whole non-meat foods in your diet, you will benefit from it. The problem is that there is no one-size fits all universally better than everything else diet. There just isn't. People are different. Some people have problems absorbing iron, some people have different needs based on their environment, etc. etc. etc. A couple things though...

*Protein is not nearly as hard to get as people like to think. The whole food combining/supplement thing is just silly. It takes no thought whatsoever to meet your protein needs as long as you are eating a balanced diet anyway. Meat is hardly the only source of protein out there.
*Vegans/vegetarians don't have to supplement if they are eating healthy any more than any non-veg eater out there.
*The things you DO need to worry about are things like iron and EFAs etc., which you should be paying attention to whether you're a vegan/vegetarian or not.

If you're worried about it, see a doctor. Personally, when I was vegan for a long time (9 years) I felt a lot better than I do now. I still eat mostly vegetarian, just out of habit... but when I have a few days where I eat more meat than usual, I definitely feel it.

A few tips though...

*Use regular recipes, and make substitutes. Almond/soy milk for dairy, tofu or seitan or any of those fake "meats" for meat in stews and burritos etc., veg broth for chicken broth... in my experience this always ends up tasting better than the stuff out of most vegan/veg cookbooks.
*Don't expect tofu/seitan to taste like meat. It doesn't. You will be disappointed. There are some great vegetarian "meats" and burgers out there, but they are tasty on their own, not because they taste like meat. Try different kinds and see what you like, they all taste different.
*Don't buy silken tofu unless you're making pudding or smoothies. Every new vegetarian I have ever met has told me EW TOFU and it's always always always because they tried to cube silken tofu and stir fry it... which is gross. Don't do it. Get some extra firm tofu, put it on paper towels and put it between two plates, and let something heavy sit on it for like 20 minutes (squeezes the water out of it). Cube, deep fry or pan fry those suckers, and slather in your favorite BBQ sauce. It's not the healthiest way to eat it, but it's amazingly good, familiar, and it sorta opens to door to other tofu stuff. I love tofu.
*You would be shocked how many normal foods in the grocery store are actually vegan. Not great for you necessarily, but vegan. Most amazing example, Bacos. I kid you not, no animal products whatsoever. This should also bring home the point that eating vegan/veg does not necessarily = eating healthy. Technically you can eat nothing but chips and soda and still be vegan.

If you ever have any questions or need recipes or anything, feel free to send me a PM.

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 08:25 PM ----------

As I said, it is easy to get the appropriate amount of protein needed from meat, or you can jump through hoops and get what you need from vegetarian and vegan sources. Your choice. You can be healthy either way. Or as you said, if you eat like shit, you eat like shit.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

Also from the Harvard School of Public Health:

Animal protein and vegetable protein probably have the same effects on health. It's the protein package that's likely to make a difference. A 6-ounce broiled porterhouse steak is a great source of protein—about 40 grams worth. But it also delivers about 38 grams of fat, 14 of them saturated. That's more than 60 percent of the recommended daily intake for saturated fat. The same amount of salmon gives you 34 grams of protein and 18 grams of fat, 4 of them saturated. A cup of cooked lentils has 18 grams of protein, but under 1 gram of fat.

So when choosing protein-rich foods, pay attention to what comes along with the protein. Vegetable sources of protein, such as beans, nuts, and whole grains, are excellent choices, and they offer healthy fiber, vitamins and minerals. The best animal protein choices are fish and poultry. If you are partial to red meat, stick with the leanest cuts, choose moderate portion sizes, and make it only an occasional part of your diet.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...ein/index.html

[Quick Ben]

How is that relevant to the what I was answering? I am answering a very specific question which I quoted.

Just for reference, I agree a hundred percent. You cannot provide a blanket statement about meat being good or bad. Meat has its baggage and you need to be careful, just like you need to be with all kinds of food. Blanket statements make no sense, such as the one that this guy made without providing no reason or sources whatsoever:

To the OP... a balanced diet is a balanced diet, generally speaking if you include more whole non-meat foods in your diet, you will benefit from it.

[Dave131]

Thanks, I thought the level of thought that went into my response was commensurate with the level of thought that went into his post.

Okay, now you're just being rude. We don't have to agree, in fact, disagreeing is usually more interesting, but you don't have to be flippant with your responses

[Taygete]

How is that relevant to the what I was answering? I am answering a very specific question which I quoted.

Just for reference, I agree a hundred percent. You cannot provide a blanket statement about meat being good or bad. Meat has its baggage and you need to be careful, just like you need to be with all kinds of food. Blanket statements make no sense, such as the one that this guy made without providing no reason or sources whatsoever:

LOL, what? Are you trying to tell me that adding whole foods to your diet isn't beneficial to just about anyone, meat eaters and vegetarians alike? Really? Source, source, source, source, source...

I was answering the OP's question:

Now my question is, it better than an all around balanced diet?

Eating healthy food is healthy... not to mention common sense. Didn't think I needed to cite sources when pointing out the obvious here, lol. The point is that a "vegetarian diet" is not necessarily superior to a non-veg diet, but YES eating more HEALTHY FOOD from non animal sources will benefit most people.

Not a difficult concept to grasp.

[Twoflower]

It's all psychological. Sure she feels better after cutting meat. It's because she is convinced that she has to be a vegetarian. So she convinced herself that she feels better, too.

[BLCalliente]

How is that relevant to the what I was answering? I am answering a very specific question which I quoted.

Just for reference, I agree a hundred percent. You cannot provide a blanket statement about meat being good or bad. Meat has its baggage and you need to be careful, just like you need to be with all kinds of food. Blanket statements make no sense, such as the one that this guy made without providing no reason or sources whatsoever:

You just keep saying the same thing over and over again. That doesn't make it true.

If you eat a 2000 calorie per day diet you only need about 50 grams of protein.

You can get that very easily without "jumping through hoops" on a vegetarian diet.

A vegetarian diet doesn't have a lot of saturated fat, growth hormones, or any of the other wonderful things you get from industrial farmed meat.

So yes, a vegetarian diet is strictly better than a diet that includes meat.

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 04:17 PM ----------

You can be healthy if you eat meat or not. There are allot more factors in a healthly persons diet and lifstyle, besides just eating meats or vegetables. End of story.

Yes, but you will be healthier if you don't eat meat, especially if you are buying meat that comes through industrial meat factories.

[handsdown]

Aslong as you are getting your protein from another source, than being a veggie is fine. I could never do it, I love my meat too much. I'm an omnivore and I'll die an omnivore.

Meat isn't bad for you. Processed meat is. I live in Alaska, where we hunt for our meat. It's tons better for you, than that grocery store ground meat crap. Too many people will tell you all meat is bad for you. But it's not. Humans are omnivores, we were meant to eat meat. If you don't want to, then you don't have to but don't expect or assume others to follow you.

I want to move to Alaska! You hunt your meat and you have the best salmon too. Adopt me

[Gerrin]

growth hormones, or any of the other wonderful things you get from industrial farmed meat.

So yes, a vegetarian diet is strictly better than a diet that includes meat.

Yes, but you will be healthier if you don't eat meat, especially if you are buying meat that comes through industrial meat factories.

Um, no. When you cook meat it breaks down weak molecules like hormones. Fats in moderation are perfectly healthy, even saturated fats are perfectly fine for a healthy diet. Meat from industrial factories have better oversight and sanitation than the local butcher. A non-meat diet is just different, not better or healthier.

[BLCalliente]

Okay, now you're just being rude. We don't have to agree, in fact, disagreeing is usually more interesting, but you don't have to be an flippant with your responses

Sorry if that came off as rude, but my honest assessment of your post was that you didn't put any thought into it and regurgitated something you'd heard before (like most of the people in this thread posting).

You said:

A balanced, healthy diet should include foods from ALL the major food groups including meat

It's just simply not true, but I remember hearing it all the time too growing up.

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 04:58 PM ----------

Um, no. When you cook meat it breaks down weak molecules like hormones. Fats in moderation are perfectly healthy, even saturated fats are perfectly fine for a healthy diet. Meat from industrial factories have better oversight and sanitation than the local butcher. A non-meat diet is just different, not better or healthier.

Um, yes. According to the European Union’s Scientific Committee on Veterinary Measures Relating to Public Health, "The use of six natural and artificial growth hormones in beef production poses a potential risk to human health. These six hormones include three which are naturally occurring—Oestradiol, Progesterone and Testosterone—and three which are synthetic—Zeranol, Trenbolone, and Melengestrol.

The Committee also questioned whether hormone residues in the meat of "growth enhanced" animals and can disrupt human hormone balance, causing developmental problems, interfering with the reproductive system, and even leading to the development of breast, prostate or colon cancer."



And especially LOL to the "meat from industrial factories have better oversight and sanitation than the local butcher".

[Gerrin]

And especially LOL to the "meat from industrial factories have better oversight and sanitation than the local butcher".

That is hilarious!

You have no idea what you're talking about. You spew platitudes and talking points of a religious zealot.

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 10:17 PM ----------

According to the European Union’s Scientific Committee on Veterinary Measures Relating to Public Health, "The use of six natural and artificial growth hormones in beef production poses a potential risk to human health. These six hormones include three which are naturally occurring—Oestradiol, Progesterone and Testosterone—and three which are synthetic—Zeranol, Trenbolone, and Melengestrol.

The Committee also questioned whether hormone residues in the meat of "growth enhanced" animals and can disrupt human hormone balance, causing developmental problems, interfering with the reproductive system, and even leading to the development of breast, prostate or colon cancer."

All living things have growth hormones, most of them have very similar chemical structures as do the synthetic hormones and their effects on the organism are all very similar. They also break down in the same ways to make very similar residues, those residues are naturally occurring substances. A person who eats is exposed to growth hormones, a person who cooks their food is exposed to chemical residues of all types generated by the cooking process.

Committees 'question' things all the time. That statement says they 'have no damn clue but want to leave ourselves wiggle room'. How does research determine what COULD cause cancer? Simple they make a solution out of a material and inject it into a rodent at a concentration thousands of times higher than anyone could consume.

The quotes you have placed are meaningless. Not to mention that vegetarians have a 39% higher rate of colorectal cancer although an overall lower cancer rate-no corrected for other factors) than those on a diet that includes meat. So when they say 'prostate or colon cancer' is that perhaps caused by the asparagus they ate with the steak?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/142427.php

[jreg]

Honestly OP, wrong place to post. As is quite evident, any real discussion has pretty much broken down into omnivore vs vegetarian mud flinging where opinion and fact toe a thin line. Talk to a doctor, talk to your nutritionist, do some research at relevant sites - an MMO board is not one of these places.

[FathomFear]

Honestly OP, wrong place to post. As is quite evident, any real discussion has pretty much broken down into omnivore vs vegetarian mud flinging where opinion and fact toe a thin line. Talk to a doctor, talk to your nutritionist, do some research at relevant sites - an MMO board is not one of these places.

This. There's always going to be heavy opposition to going vegetarian, especially for men, due to how eating meat is associated with traditional masculinity.

As jreg says, talk about it with your doctor. My doctor (who's not a vegetarian himself) recommendation that I switch to a vegan diet years ago. I did and have never looked back. It really all depends on what you want to do, what your health objectives are, etc.

[poser765]

Honestly OP, wrong place to post. As is quite evident, any real discussion has pretty much broken down into omnivore vs vegetarian mud flinging where opinion and fact toe a thin line. Talk to a doctor, talk to your nutritionist, do some research at relevant sites - an MMO board is not one of these places.

This. The no bullshit line is this. It can be done, and can be healthy. Just like eating a diet centered around meat can be healthy as well.