Different paladin Roleplay

[Krunk]

Hi there. So, I am looking to make a Male Human paladin to RP with, you know, give it a whirl and see how it fits me. But I dread creating a Mary Sue. It doesn't make for interesting story, and it doesn't make for a fun RP environment. However, I want my character's personality to be different from the archetypical Paladin, who are more often than not Virtuous, and Honourable, and... well... Instantly likeable.

My idea is that My paladin is... well... a racist, arrogant, and fanatical prick with a intense fanatical devotion to the Light (like the scarlet crusade meets the KKK). I basically explain that he (lets call him... bob for now, until I think of a name) is the bastard (not literally) he is because his father was one of the Minor Lords of Lordaeron. Bob's dad fought in the second war (while Bob was just a pup), and much of his land and estate was ravaged by the Horde, including the loss his eldest Son and heir (who was a good and decent man), who died in battle. This left Bob's father with a bitter hatred for the Orcs, which soon extended to all non-humans (The Elves for not devoting themselves fully to the war, trolls for aiding them, and the gnomes for being shortarses... etc). This rubbed off on young bob, who grew up learning to look down on all non-humans. Eventually the plague of Undeath came and Bob was sent away to Stormwind, where he would start training to be a paladin, which he somehow completed and was initiated into the Knights of the Silver Hand (meanwhile, in an ironic twist of fate, Bob's dad was killed and risen by the plague and is currently a Forsaken... who hates himself for being a filthy undead corpse, and all of the living... for being alive/not-human. Basically he hates everyone.)

This is a guy who utterly despises the Horde and its races (spitting on their corpses, burning prisoners alive, taking orc head trophies, etc), willing to use "dishonourable" methods to win fights, revels in the act of killing Horde, and would do anything to survive to carry on his "mission" (think Jaime Lannister crossed with Ramsay Bolton... without the Incest). To him, cleansing the world of "Filth" (Demons, Undead, Orcs, Trolls, Blood Elves, Worgen.... etc) for the True sons and daughters of Azeroth (aka humanity... and to an extent the dwarves... as long as they stay in their mountains) is the highest calling a soldier of the Alliance can aspire to, with the other allies in the Alliance merely being tolerated. Basically, he thinks that the Light put him on Azeroth for the sole purpose of ensuring Human Dominance. Hes Garithos that found religion. He would fit right in with the Scarlet Crusade.

However, I understand that if a character like that were to exist, hes instantly unlikeable, and I'd like my character to evolve a bit. That is where I run into my problem. I want my character to slowly but surely shift from being an arrogant and racist bastard into a somewhat honourable and noble character. I want him to slowly discover that his purpose isnt to carry out this crusade of his, but to rather uphold the traditional values of a Paladin (Protect the weak, bring justice to the unjust, vanquish evil, etc) and slowly discover that the other races on azeroth have just as much right to live and prosper as Humanity, and that they are actually quite likeable when you get to know them. I want him to slowly discover honour and nobility. He wont be the shining paragon that Turalyon or Tirion is, but he'll be a guy willing to stand against evil and lay his life down for the innocent (regardless of race).

But, how can I do this without pulling off a "Mary Sue"? Should I tone down the douchebaggery to make the transition more believable?

[Kerath]

I think the term Mary Sue is so horribly over-used these days. My understanding is that it applies to a character that's practically perfect in every way. A character being good or noble is not a Mary Sue, so long as they aren't perfect.
To be fair, from the way you describe it, you'd be hard pushed to pull a Mary Sue with this character

Making the transition believable will be tough. His prejudices have been indoctrinated from a young age. What is it about the other races that he hates specifically - I mean, I can see why he would hate orcs when they overran his homeland - does that mean he sees them as senseless, vicious savages - the same for elves - spineless, manipulative cowards? The best way I could think of doing it, is for his experiences to gradually alter his perceptions. For example - it's hard to believe that all orcs are mindless murderous beasts if you witness them in acts of self sacrifice, compassion or nobility etc.
Similarly, you could introduce a scenario which shows Bob that he suffers from the same flaws that he deplores in other races.
Perhaps in his relentless pursuit of his quarry, his actions lead to innocent people suffering - a consequence that could have been avoidable if he didn't throw himself into a mission with such mindless ferocity.

I dunno, just batting ideas around

[The Madgod]

You, my friend, have been reading too many lore QQ threads :P

Mary Sues are not merely instantly likable characters, though that is a part of it. They are characters who have everything go their way. They are characters who can do it all. They are characters who are made to essentially be the writer... but cooler and more powerful. If a character doesn't like the Mary Sue, they are pegged as a villian or will eventually begin to love the character. They do not change that much, tending to stay the same no matter what events hit them.

To change from an utter asshole to an actually likeable person takes time, which you seem to understand. In terms of racism, it means dealing with that race your character dislikes a lot, so as to show that his perception of what he thinks they are is false. It takes characters to help him see the proverbial light. It doesn't make him a Mary Sue if he becomes likable. It would make him a Mary Sue if he becomes likable, and if people don' t like him, you peg them as villians and are moody towards them for not liking him.

[Kuniku]

I'm fairly new to the whole RP thing, however my issue with what you described is more along the lines of what you described is not very Paladin-esque IMHO.

What you could do to make it interesting, and add to the RP aspect in a way, would be to have him start off as a warrior, and be the character you described, and then as he comes to the realisation that he has been a prick he could then be "touched" by the light, and slowly realise that he has become something different as his attitudes have changed, and then gradually become a paladin...

if that makes sense?

[The Madgod]

Paladins can certainly be the way he's described. What other sort of paladin do you think seeks employ with the Scarlet Crusade? :P

[Venziir]

Paladins can certainly be the way he's described. What other sort of paladin do you think seeks employ with the Scarlet Crusade? :P

Not to mention, if one bothers to read the "Day of the Dragon" novel, the paladins in said books aren't really that kind. Quite the opposite in fact.

[Kuniku]

Paladins can certainly be the way he's described. What other sort of paladin do you think seeks employ with the Scarlet Crusade? :P

I stand chastised, I just imagined from a lore POV warriors of the light would be incredibly moral, even ret paladins would be more moral than the OP described, but perhaps my take on the class is wrong xD

[The Madgod]

They ARE moral. It's just that morality is relative. They think that what they are doing is good, and because they have faith in the Light, they can wield it as paladins. In the loosest terms, paladins are holy warriors, wielding the light as well as weapons to combat "evil".

[Krunk]

I stand chastised, I just imagined from a lore POV warriors of the light would be incredibly moral, even ret paladins would be more moral than the OP described, but perhaps my take on the class is wrong xD

Well, eventually I want Bob to become pretty moral and Honourable. But I always find it's a better story when the "Bad guy" has an epiphany and redeems himself. But In Bob's case it will be a very gradual and slow process, with his mind being changed over time.

I also want there to be a "Reflection" of himself, or something to show him how twisted and evil he'll become if he continues down the path hes currently taking. Im thinking that the one that Indoctrinated Bob would be the ideal candidate, their hatred and anger finally corrupting them on the inside and out, and this forces Bob to kill them.


Also, his backstory. My main focus for this character now is "Why is he a racist prick"

[Kerath]

Well, eventually I want Bob to become pretty moral and Honourable. But I always find it's a better story when the "Bad guy" has an epiphany and redeems himself. But In Bob's case it will be a very gradual and slow process, with his mind being changed over time.

I also want there to be a "Reflection" of himself, or something to show him how twisted and evil he'll become if he continues down the path hes currently taking. Im thinking that the one that Indoctrinated Bob would be the ideal candidate, their hatred and anger finally corrupting them on the inside and out, and this forces Bob to kill them.


Also, his backstory. My main focus for this character now is "Why is he a racist prick"

Sounds interesting - please do keep us updated, I'm quite intrigued

[pateuvasiliu]

In my opinion, an openly racist person would have, especially if starting later than the first generation paladins, a hard time becoming one.

The Light teaches that every living being has a connection to the universe and that said connection needs to be protected by paladins, so that all may benefit. Seeing as how the Silver Hand also had a small number at first, and later more, high elves and dwarves, I think his dislike to them would stand out. Then again, it's all up to you.

Scarlets are so ''mean'' because they're not aware that their leader is possessed. Saidan Dathrohan was one of the -FIRST FIVE- original paladins, so it's understandable that they trust him to the death. That's why the scarlets are one of the few if not only order of paladins that have an excuse for being evil.

This is a guy who utterly despises the Horde and its races (spitting on their corpses, burning prisoners alive, taking orc head trophies, etc), willing to use "dishonourable" methods to win fights, revels in the act of killing Horde, and would do anything to survive to carry on his "mission" (think Jaime Lannister crossed with Ramsay Bolton... without the Incest).

During the Second War, this mentality may have been accepted. Arguably, the ruthless attitude would still be, as the Alliance wages war with the Horde.

However, dishonourable methods, burning prisoners and disrespecting the dead are the exact opposite of paladin traits. To me, the honour of a paladin is his greatest weakness: that's what makes the difference between my mage and my paladin. The mage can do WTF he wants, while the paladin has to EARN his power through acts of kindness and fighting for the greater good. A paladin that does the above risks to fall, in my opinion, to snowflake rank, as he basically contradicts everything his class/profession/belief stands for.

Of course, this is all my opinion.

[Krunk]

In my opinion, an openly racist person would have, especially if starting later than the first generation paladins, a hard time becoming one.

The Light teaches that every living being has a connection to the universe and that said connection needs to be protected by paladins, so that all may benefit. Seeing as how the Silver Hand also had a small number at first, and later more, high elves and dwarves, I think his dislike to them would stand out. Then again, it's all up to you.

Scarlets are so ''mean'' because they're not aware that their leader is possessed. Saidan Dathrohan was one of the -FIRST FIVE- original paladins, so it's understandable that they trust him to the death. That's why the scarlets are one of the few if not only order of paladins that have an excuse for being evil.



During the Second War, this mentality may have been accepted. Arguably, the ruthless attitude would still be, as the Alliance wages war with the Horde.

However, dishonourable methods, burning prisoners and disrespecting the dead are the exact opposite of paladin traits. To me, the honour of a paladin is his greatest weakness: that's what makes the difference between my mage and my paladin. The mage can do WTF he wants, while the paladin has to EARN his power through acts of kindness and fighting for the greater good. A paladin that does the above risks to fall, in my opinion, to snowflake rank, as he basically contradicts everything his class/profession/belief stands for.

Of course, this is all my opinion.

Well, the core problem Im having is making Bob into a character that could realistically join the Silver Hand.

In terms of Racism, I think that it needs to be dialed back, and reserved only for non-Alliance members, with mild to medium disdain for non-humans. Bob would really only hate the Horde (and true evil creatures ofc) due to his backstory with any real passion. When it comes to Dwarves, High Elves, Night Elves, etc, Bob would just rather not deal with them. Draenei might be an exception, due to their connection to the Light.

In terms of being a general prick, it might just be that he is merciless towards the enemies of the Alliance (Like "take no prisoner" and "Salt the earth" mentalities.) In the end, the Ends justify the Means to Bob. If it helps accomplish his mission, he'd do it, just like the Scarlet Crusade. Of course he'd have some reservations, like letting Innocents come into harms way or working with demons and such.

I agree that he needs to have some honour initially. If hes a paladin, he cant start off being lil arthas. But working out a code of honour that allows for such intense hatred and being sort of a douche bag is key.

[Andaelas]

My idea is that My paladin is... well... a racist, arrogant, and fanatical prick with a intense fanatical devotion to the Light (like the scarlet crusade meets the KKK).

Krunk, Welcome to the Caelestis Templares (No link, Google us!). Racism is one of the least Mary Sue things you can do for a character, provided that they have a -reason- to be racist. The moment your character isn't loved, or universally tolerant of everything is the moment they can progress as a character. "Progress" requires flaws like that, perfection is stagnant.

Intolerance, Vigilance, Faith, Zeal, and Sufferance!