Heroic dungeons dumbed down

[A Dark Knight]

Oh boy.

Welfare epics here we come.

and why should that bother you, ppl talking talking about epics being epics AFTER LFR is introduced ?

and why not run these new "heroics" for gear, and then do the challenge mode for real hardmode.

All i hear is an elites jerk, and as a former EJ, i feel sorry for you.

[Crovaz]

Also, I don't understand why people think that challenging == hardcore. It doesn't and some people enjoy challenging content and not some AoE grind for 20 minutes. Heroic content, at the beginning, should require some form of at least 1 CC and seeing as how just about every class has one form of CC, this shouldn't be a problem. My god, they made it so that when you CC something, the rest of the pack doesn't even pull anymore! You should have to use your brain, even just a tad, to make it through a dungeon instead of just mindlessly drooling while rolling your face across the keyboard.

Dungeons now, compared to TBC, are the microwaveable meals of WoW. Instead of sitting down to a nice, well made dinner, people are looking for a 4 course meal nuked and prepared in 5 minutes. Content is consumed so quickly now, players are becoming bored and Blizzard is having to implement things like Pokemon and Farmville, just to keep people from logging off.

Don't even get me started on LFR. Clear the entire dungeon the first week of release with no wipes because the mechanics for the boss fights are virtually non-existent. Consume said content and you're bored in 4 weeks and whining on the forums about lack of content. T11 was challenging with normal modes but wasn't impossible to do by any means, but people just refused to learn the mechanics of the fights or the mechanics of their own class, and tried to march in and pretend it was ICC with the 30% retard buff on. It basically comes down to people not wanting even the slightest challenge, but the max rewards.

They complained that all they wanted to see was the content and they didn't need the gear and they only had 1 hour a week to play. Now they bitch and moan about loot drops in LFR and are bored because they've run DS on their 7th alt. Funny how they don't have time to raid normals but have the time to gear out all their alts isn't?

[mvaliz]

A hero, doing a heroic deed, combines (mental or physical) strength, courage and puts others before himself with the goal of coming out victorious out of chaos, when things seem impossible, to serve a righteous cause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disambiguation
word-sense disambiguation (WSD) is an open problem of natural language processing, which governs the process of identifying which sense of a word (i.e. meaning) is used in a sentence, when the word has multiple meanings (polysemy).

The most recent OS for Mac is called Lion. My computer's OS does not hunt gazelle, nor tame a harem of females, nor fight off rabid starving packs of hyenas.

The Porsche is named after a breed of horse. The car does not have four legs or eat hay.

Just because something is CALLED something doesn't make it what it is. :P

[mvaliz]

Why do heroic dungeons need to be hard. If you want a challenge, try the Challenge Mode

Because people apparently can't get over the fact that the BC model being brought back in Cata failed.

[Rivin]

Not true. They had different loot tables, just like the WOTLK normal and hc's. It wasn't until Cataclysm where they started using the exact same loot just with better stats and the "heroic" label.

Cataclysm is where they started making the drops in all dungeons the same in normal and heroic. But you can look at the BC level 70 dungeons right now and see that they drop the exact same loot in both modes (not even different item levels), with extra epics off the last boss.

http://www.wowhead.com/zone=3848#drops:mode=heroic
http://www.wowhead.com/zone=3714#drops:mode=heroic
http://www.wowhead.com/zone=3789#drops:mode=heroic
etc.

[Xarkan]

Just because something is CALLED something doesn't make it what it is. :P

It does and it does not, when Max OS makes a version called lion it is meant to make you think strong, regal, commanding or such things. Porsche is meant to make you think of horses. Those words are not chosen at random and assigned new meaning [edit: actually i just assumed that was true but it is not, porsche comes from a family name.. is there even a horse?]

The same thing for heroic, the word is meant to mean what it means originally and that association is meant to give you a feeling about the concept heroic dungeon. It is not a new meaning for a word, it is the original concept

[Darnassian]

I do however, still maintain that Challenge Modes are a poor substitute for challenging heroics, and with the three tiers available for raids, I just don't see why they can't just apply that to dungeons. Why they have to make up this convoluted new kind of dungeon instead of just going with the formula that's been successful for the raid finder.

I don't want content considered challenging when most of the time I'm running it I'm carrying braindead slobs would barely make 15k dps with full LFR gear, while disregarding every mechanic in the game. Don't you get that you cannot have challenging content with LFD? It's quick farming. If you're gona run stuff with people you know, you run the Challenge mode.

[shanthi]

And wouldn't most people be doing challenge modes with their friends? Are they puggable? If so, that's going to make them a lot easier than they are being advertised to be by design: because you can't predict random strangers. People will whine and complain that they're too hard to pug, so they'll get nerfed until they're not challenging anymore.

The "heroic mode" dungeons I mentioned wouldn't be accessable through the LFD either, so, those wouldn't be done with 4 other randoms either. Because they're challenging. So by design, a challenging dungeon can't be puggable, because of the nature of pugs.

Challenge modes are meant to be done with guildies/friends, yes. It's not meant to be a "PUG'd experience." It doesn't work to make heroic mode dungeons like that, though, if they award gear you need to get into raids. You can't put a key progression step behind a "guild groups only" wall, because not everyone has guildies/friends available to play whenever they have time to go into dungeons.

That is almost certainly why challenge modes award transmog gear rather than itemization. It provides a reward that gives some value/bragging rights, but isn't necessary to get to the next step of the game. The dungeons you need to get to the next step (heroic dungeons) need to be PUG-able (since you need to run them over and over and over to get all the gear you need), which means they need to be easy enough for smooth runs without the kind of communication and organization that people who know each other have.

[Fermion]

Why do heroic dungeons need to be hard.

I don't know? Because "easy heroic" is a borderline oxymoron? And I'd add a +1 for Biggs Darklighter. People are saying "what's the issue?" and yet they will be the same ones crying out about there is nothing to do, they've seen it all, done it all, are bored. That and "I pay my £8 a month, I should get the Challenge mode gear too!" ... sigh.

[mvaliz]

The same thing for heroic, the word is meant to mean what it means originally and that association is meant to give you a feeling about the concept heroic dungeon. It is not a new meaning for a word, it is the original concept

A baby falls in a pool, a person dives in, pulls out the baby and is dubbed a hero.

Was his actions really hard? All he did was dive into a pool and lifted out a 10lb sandbag.

Heroes SAVE people by defeating bad guys and rescuing the helpless, regardless of how difficult it is. Not because somebody's stats outweighs another set of statistics.

People seem to forget that this game is about being and adventurer in a world... not a stat-grind.

[Kickbuttmario]

Simple. In Tier 11, I had a guild and friends to raid with. We cleared all normal content and I was happy (especially getting Nefarian down). Now, during school time, my guild fell apart and I didn't have the time to raid. Hence, LFR.

LFR is basically a glorified pug. Go in with random strangers; anticipate less than desirable results. Gear isn't awarded for merit; it's given to who rolls the highest. The gear, much like the players receiving it, is inferior to that of normal/heroic content, where better players get better gear.

Heroic dungeons are a springboard to raiding. Whether players want to faceroll through LFR and then clear T14 and complain about how easy content was OR if they want to replicate the initial Cataclysm feeling of raiding in blues is up to them.

Is content easier now? Yes. Is there more content for a wide variety of people to play with? Hell yes. That's what keeps me playing the game.

Now I really don't understand what you're getting at. You said why wasn't I complaining about TBC epics being epics anymore, and I gave you a response. No matter what they do, if they can give you some special feeling, such as killing a hard boss, or getting a certain title, or some specific gear item gear you want, then epics don't really matter.

Then you went on to say you liked getting loot from the looks of this post. Seems to me, you don't care about the reward or the feeling, you just want loot.

[Martana]

this really is a difficulty in semantics. heroic dungeons in Mop simply mean that they are meant for level-capped players. if you want a true challenge in your five-man experience, you'll do challenge modes.

i suppose you could say they've been 'dumbed down' or whatever, but i wonder how many people who are complaining in this way will actually be able to hack it in challenge modes.

[Zoneseek]

Why do heroic dungeons need to be hard. If you want a challenge, try the Challenge Mode

+1

Heroics should just be a level 85 version of the dungeon, with a bit of decent gear and tokens to push you to the next tier of content. WOTLK heroics were superior to CAT heroics in my opinion, I never did any heroics on my alts in CAT because it was just a chore....not fun.

[mvaliz]

Heroic dungeons are a springboard to raiding.

WRONG! (Well, more like a half-truth)

There's more to Heroic dungeons than pushing people into LFR/raiding.

Back in Wrath, prior to LFD I could care less about the dungeons as finding pugs were a chore, so I just raided.

When they introduced LFD - my whole game changed. Those became FUN to do! Now for gear I just raided, but for FUN I ran LFD.

LFD is not there to serve one solitary single function as you're painting it out to be. Heroics are now being designed to be enjoyed as yet ANOTHER optional form of continual end-game gameplay, just like daily quests.

---------- Post added 2012-06-13 at 04:24 PM ----------

+1

Heroics should just be a level 85 version of the dungeon, with a bit of decent gear and tokens to push you to the next tier of content. WOTLK heroics were superior to CAT heroics in my opinion, I never did any heroics on my alts in CAT because it was just a chore....not fun.

And this gets to the core of it really. ^_^

You see, the majority of people WHO PLAY A VIDEO GAME just want to have fun. Difficult face-punching challenge is not fun for everybody, and definitely not for the majority.

I used to think things needed to be hard to have fun... until I played LFD in Wrath, and suddenly my whole world perspective changed when I discovered I was having MORE FUN facerolling dungeons instead of wiping on heroic raid bosses. So now, I raided to get gear to let me have FUN in dungeons and in the overworld.

However, even Blizz recognizes that some people DO like challenge, and thus added in Challenge mode. Everybody wins in this system. ^_^

[Madness20]

Challenge modes are meant to be done with guildies/friends, yes. It's not meant to be a "PUG'd experience." It doesn't work to make heroic mode dungeons like that, though, if they award gear you need to get into raids. You can't put a key progression step behind a "guild groups only" wall, because not everyone has guildies/friends available to play whenever they have time to go into dungeons.

Your argument is flawed from the point that progression above challenge mode doesn't exists, it is endgame by itself, so why not actually reward people for doing it with gear? The argument for LFR is that baddies weren't seeing endgame content, and now they are, heroic is their endgame content
If challenge is indeed an hardcore mode, there's no reason to not allow players to be rewarded on that "endgame".

That is almost certainly why challenge modes award transmog gear rather than itemization. It provides a reward that gives some value/bragging rights, but isn't necessary to get to the next step of the game. The dungeons you need to get to the next step (heroic dungeons) need to be PUG-able (since you need to run them over and over and over to get all the gear you need), which means they need to be easy enough for smooth runs without the kind of communication and organization that people who know each other have.

As some have said, gear design ever since wotlk is dull, boring and that's the reason for why they introduced transmog: they didn't want to keep designing decent equips.
And transmog is not and will never be an incentive to people organize raids for it, specially ONLY for that, even worse when it's hard modes.

It is not about content anymore. It is about baddies and some casuals wanting to raid everything, and get the loot without any effort at all. If it's about the content, you don't really need no go challenge to get it's gear, you have the Normal and HC content to see the content.
And on the other side, even if casuals aren't that interested in the content, but actually interested in having the best gear and that's the MAIN reason everyone's raid, why would you think some transmog cosmetic would motivate anyone to do the EXACT same content they farmed endless times before, but harder and just to get something it's not even important. Hardcore players do not play just for the sake of the achievement. They play for their unique/rare rewards.

[Deleted]

Because people apparently can't get over the fact that the BC model being brought back in Cata failed.

It didnt fail, it's just that people are so spoiled today and just want stuff without putting in any effort. this kind of people whine the most and get their way.

Good night

[levandor]

I would agree if challenge modes rewarded actual gear rather than purely aesthetic gear.

Wel, but that IS what a lot of people asked for, challenging stuff for challenges sake.

Personally i love the idea, i get something challenging, and i get some visual upgrades for bragging, thats totaly cool

[IxilaFA]

I won't read through several pages of replies, but I'd like to point out one thing:

Being fully epic'ed out has not been an achievement since BC. Epics do not necessarily mean "I did amazing things to get this gear" it is simply a grade of how good your gear is. Nowadays when I look at a character it's all about ilvls. After the first tier of raids are over in every expac since Vanilla, it's always been a question of "How good are his epics?" Not a question of "Is he in all epics?" In Vanilla, they required you to do ridiculous things to get epics. Now, it's easy, but the only thing that matters is ilvl.

EDIT: I forgot to point out that Blizzard seems to be going an obvious direction with Challenge Modes. They want achievements and challenges to matter. With Transmogrify being widely available, and apparently popular, your gear appearance doesn't matter anymore. With epics being widely available, your gear color doesn't matter anymore. With LFR being so accessible, what raids you are doing doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is the achievements you've gotten.

[Jtbrig7390]

It didnt fail, it's just that people are so spoiled today and just want stuff without putting in any effort. this kind of people whine the most and get their way.

Good night

Lol ya it didn't fail i mean each x-pac of wow has lost over 2 million players....o wait no that only happen in cata.....

[Dreknar20]

+1

Heroics should just be a level 85 version of the dungeon, with a bit of decent gear and tokens to push you to the next tier of content. WOTLK heroics were superior to CAT heroics in my opinion, I never did any heroics on my alts in CAT because it was just a chore....not fun.

then do they deserve the title of heroic?

How would you feel if Blizzard starts nerfing Challenge Mode. Which I would not be surprised at all if they do.