Have Hunters been flying under the radar?

[Gandrake]

Probably because hunters don't have a handicap that is so pervasive that any retard in the game can play one and win.

[pimpeddakota]

So... much...fuckery right here! Where to start?


We have Freezing trap on a 28 second CD, this trap has to be aimed and combined with another CC ability(scatter shot/Bad manners) in order to be successful, even then our trap is easily sabotaged as it has a 1-3 second deploy time where a team mate of the trap victim can easily run in and take the trap in his stead.


Another thing to be noted with Freezing trap is that it shares CD with Frost trap(slow/root), this forces hunters to use Snake trap for slow/root. Using Snake trap is extremely risky business as it gives the affected targets a dot effect, which will break Freezing trap/scatter/Bad manner and render us unable to CC during the effect time. So compared to the spammable CC (Sheep/fear/sap) it's incredibly weak and very unforgiving if not used properly or if being sabotaged.


As you said, very limited, bordering to useless! It gives us Sap immunity, that's it. At best, it can be used to get the time needed to ress a dead pet.


A hunter's survival is heavily dependent on several factors, which i will list below.
1: Is Pet CC'd/Line of sight/dead? If it is, we can't Roar of sacrifice, Master's call or use any pet ability defensively.

2: Is this a good moment to disengage? If we disengage in the wrong direction, away from our healer, we'll die or put our healer in a crappy position. If we disengage when enemy team still has Cd's (Shadowstep/Death grip/feral leap/ blink, etc) the DE will be undone and we'll be unable to get distance for 15 sec.

3: Should i use Deterrence? Can i be peeled? Is my healer in line of sight? Have the enemy team used nuke cd's? What will i do after my Deterrence?
If you use deterrence when the enemy hasn't used their nuke cd's, that's the first thing that will happen when deterrence comes off and you'll be forced to use use it again or waste loads of Cd's to survive ( Traps/RoS/DE).


You haven't played a hunter have you? Sometimes you Disengage and nothing happens, because you got stunned/rooted on the millisecond you used it but it will still be on cooldown! Unlike Blink, Disengage does not remove stuns/roots. DE from what hill? We're talking Arena and overall scaling here, not one lonely peak in AB.


HAHAHA! But we can't deterrence when stunned, we still take damage under deterrence from Dot's and our pet is completely useless in the damage department, unless you're BM.



I'm going to tell you what happened here and what your warlock did wrong.
1:He most likely stood out in the open tanking the hunter at all times, completely ignoring the obvious advantage of being a warlock, doing damage behind LoS.

2:He failed to use portal when he got webbed and allowed the hunter to hard cast Aimed shot. Alternatively, you failed to dispel the warlock.

3:The warlock ran too far from you and was unable to eat traps, putting you in a crappy position. Alternatively, you used trinket on Scatter shot and had to sit a full duration trap (I think this).

Just lulz

I'm voting this since I was thinking it the whole time reading this post... the moment a hunter webs a lock the lock is suppose to fear the hunter to get back out of LOS

[Deleted]

ofcourse we;'re overpowered! i am getting stunlocked by a rogue in a BG , getting killed within the stun...4,4k res target...yes and we're overpowered! GG OP!

[Deleted]

Basic rule of World of Warcraft.

Any class other than your own is overpowered. Your class is always underpowered.

.............and thats the truth,cause every single class have its genesis,its superior class. So it doesnt mather what class you are playing,you will still always have atleast one other class that can beat the crap out of you if played good. The only exception i would make is Rogues. A rogue is probably the only class in the game atm. that(if played right) can beat every other class. So gz! to rogues for having a good facerollspec in cata.

[aarjun]

They put Conc Shot back in

Yay!

But they removed the glyph, which is what made is strong. Also, you can now dodge it and it still has cd.

I don't see how Disengage is weaker than Blink. It doesn't break stuns, but Disengage also never, EVER fizzles based on terrain.

It's quite obvious you have never played a hunter, or you wouldn't have made this comment. It doesn't fizzle, but even small terrain bumps stop it. Also, when they fixed charge, they completely gutted Disengage. Now, if you get rooted/cc'd, you get ported back to where you started or drop where you are instead of finishing the jump. Blink can be used to clear stuns AND roots, while Disengage can't. Hunter root remover is on 45 sec cd compared to 15 for mages and guess what they did to that at the start of cata? They made is dispellable and spellstealable.

Seriously, try out a premade hunter on beta and you'll see that situation hasn't really improved that much with the removal of min range. They nerfed all self heals and put them both in the same tier. SV is still the only spec in game without access to baseline heal. Hunters lost Entrapment, glyphed concussive shot, a lot of pet talents, double focus regen on steady/cobra, etc. while having no improvement made to traps radius, arming time, travel time, in combat camo (still can be targetted and attacked), scatter pathing, flare, los/range requirements for pet to use master's call, dot from wyvern, master marksman proc, aimed shot, etc. In addition, now they have to deal with expertise. Imagine playing a caster against an 80 sec ams. That's what rogues can do to hunters now. Unlike melee, hunters can't go behind anyone to bypass dodge.

[Keren]

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=65871

actually deterence is only useable when you have a melee weapon equipped...

[pimpeddakota]

Did you by change armory the hunter and see what gear he was running?

[Fiftyonred]

I am also going to assume this is a troll post, and if not, i am at least happy we have established the level of skill for the pvp'ers in this community.
For your info, my dear brother, hunters are without ANY doubt the worst class, not spec, but class in almost any competetive pvp setting, which includes arena and RBG's. The only class to be even remotely similar in sucking to this degree, is the warrior class.

And if you do not agree, you do not pvp. fact!

[Deleted]

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=65871

actually deterence is only useable when you have a melee weapon equipped...

The one and only comment on that wowhead page is "Looks like you stumbled upon the wrong version of Deterrence, if you were looking for the Hunter ability, Check here: Deterrence". It doesn't require a weapon and hasn't for some time.

[Fiftyonred]

Traps are still usable for area denial and for keeping someone off your ass. Drop a trap at your feet and they either have to dodge around it (giving you distance) or eat the trap. The arming time and even the activation radius have always been damned inconsistent in my experience. Sometimes I trip over the trap before it's even visible, sometimes I run right through it five seconds after it went down and nothing happens, sometimes I walk 10 yards to a side and still trigger the trap.

I have no idea why traps are so damned inconsistent, latency maybe. Either way it's still area denial.





I agree, but it's still a form of CC and it's still reliable, even if it's risky and generally weaker than similar forms of CC.



It gives you the guaranteed first shot, unless the enemy team has some form of ranged AOE they can throw at you (Flamestrike, Death and Decay, Shadowfury, etc.) That's all it really needs to do.



True, but focusing the pet is generally a bad idea. Now that pets aren't made out of wet kleenex, it just results in the hunter being given plenty of time to run out to a safe distance and/or begin turreting damage into someone while you're busy punching a monkey or spider. Even if you kill the pet, Heart of the Phoenix gives them an instant resummon effectively once per match.



This applies to everyone with any sort of movement skill similar to Disengage. The same restrictions and requirement for situational awareness applies to Charge, Shadowstep, Blink, etc. The only difference is that the cooldown on Disengage is very short and Disengage is much more effective than other, similar abilities when you're in a position to make use of an elevation advantage (ramps, bridges, etc.) Hell, just jumping and using Disengage at the apex of the jump gives you a few extra yards!

Just make sure you're not going to get Charged the second you hit the button.



Again, this applies to a lot of classes. Shield Wall destroys a Warrior's damage. Divine Shield cripples a Ret's damage. Same sort of things apply - you lose ALL of your damage, but you're also ignoring a lot more damage than the Warrior and your Deterrence can't be dispelled like a Ret's bubble.



Every arena map except Nagrand Arena has at least one place where you can make use of elevation differences to maximize the distance Disengage moves you



I wasn't trapped. I'm also not Resto, I'm Enhancement; like I said, we're just in it for our weekly points and that's it, that we lost a game didn't bother me. What bothered me was how fucking fast his HP went from almost full to almost dead in the space of 2-3 seconds, and purely from the Hunter's damage. He got caught at the corner of the casket in Lordaeron arena with the spider pet root (4 sec), I was in the process of moving towards the hunter to begin DPS on him (I had been LOSing the Hunter, who initially opened on me, and was also just beginning to reposition after catching the Feral in caster form with an instant Hex), and didn't feel he'd need a heal immediately. He basically got blown up by the Hunter, the Feral had trinketed Hex and interrupted Healing Surge with Skull Bash, and my partner died before the spider pet root ended.

Again, it's not that we lost that bothers me, it's that Hunters are doing at least as much damage as Rogues are, and are doing it instantly and at range, and yet you never really see anyone saying anything about it.

EDIT: In regards to Aimed Shot, I've got 4600 resil and about 40% armor on my shaman and ate a 46k Aimed Shot a day ago.

My hunter in his 390 pve gear crit with Hawk and Mark on a normal NPC for about 52k so there is NO WAY IN HELL that you are not lieng right there.

[PizzaSHARK]

Did you by change armory the hunter and see what gear he was running?

Didn't really think to. I know he didn't have Berserking. He definitely had the spear from Deathwing since he was about 50 feet tall when he blew me up. It's very possible he was in PvE gear - we were basically getting GY farmed at the time and the fight happened around the Alliance berserking powerup hut.

[Deleted]

If you ate a 46k crit the hunter was in 2piece heroic T13 with the DW staff as you said. No way would he have hit that high otherwise.

Also, disengage better than blink? Disengage never without problems? You've never played a hunter have you... I'd trade out disengage for blink any day of the week.

[Elexo]

It also depends on where you face them tbh.

They are insane in the Orgrimmar arena but in Nagrand you can just pillar kite them.
Any decent player can either LoS or force a hunter to melee in the Nagrand arena.

That said, with their minimum range being removed in MoP I am terrified of them already.

[PizzaSHARK]

It also depends on where you face them tbh.

They are insane in the Orgrimmar arena but in Nagrand you can just pillar kite them.
Any decent player can either LoS or force a hunter to melee in the Nagrand arena.

That said, with their minimum range being removed in MoP I am terrified of them already.

I'm withholding basically all comments relative to PvP balance in MoP until they give me premade 90's with PvP gear so I can actually test things. A lot of the things planned for Hunters look scary, but it might end up that their damage drops like a rock (which is what's happening to Rogues or so I hear) and it ends up being peachy keen.

[Hallu]

EDIT: In regards to Aimed Shot, I've got 4600 resil and about 40% armor on my shaman and ate a 46k Aimed Shot a day ago.

You sir are lying to get your point across. I play Hunter PVP with Heroic Vishanka, Heroic Kiril, Heroic Vial and 2set, and it's impossible to crit anyone that high. Unless they are wearing 0 resil.

[jimmy valmer]

Just because you get crit that high by a hunter they become op? What about rogues and mages that can do that damage without any thought at all?

Hunters can look op but its about whos behind that toon. That same hunter playing rogue will probably own a lot more given the skill and exp it takes to play hunter effectively.

[PizzaSHARK]

You sir are lying to get your point across. I play Hunter PVP with Heroic Vishanka, Heroic Kiril, Heroic Vial and 2set, and it's impossible to crit anyone that high. Unless they are wearing 0 resil.

I'd say it was 80k if I felt I needed to lie to get a point across. Combat log said 42k with 4k overkill: 46k.

---------- Post added 2012-06-13 at 08:21 AM ----------

Just because you get crit that high by a hunter they become op? What about rogues and mages that can do that damage without any thought at all?

Hunters can look op but its about whos behind that toon. That same hunter playing rogue will probably own a lot more given the skill and exp it takes to play hunter effectively.

It's not just the damage itself, it's how the damage is delivered.

It's instant, and it's ranged, and it's not subject to issues faced by other ranged DPS (no cast times that can be interrupted.) The damage itself isn't really that out of place in a world of 100k shatter combos and Rogues running around with legendaries, it's more of a matter of how hard that damage is to avoid in the first place.

Incidentally, these attributes (high damage, damage is bursty, damage is very difficult to avoid relative to effort put into causing that damage) are the same things that make people say Rogues and Frost Mages are OP.

[jimmy valmer]

So your saying that LoSing the hunter isnt an option to reduce all incoming damage? Yes that is a way and it affects all ranged dps except aff locks (although dots wont be enough to kill you)

Hunters require alot of skill just to be at the level of rogues and mages in terms of dmg and survivability. But you know what? Good for them. They are using skill to win which is what pvp is all about ofcourse.

In low end bracket pvp the average hunter can pose to be a real threat to the other team but its the same story as mages, at high ratings they are hard to play.

[Deleted]

They're very strong in PVE as well.

Not even top 10 spec's at the moment, hardly "really strong" where they excel is on yorsahj due to the black phase

---------- Post added 2012-06-13 at 03:28 PM ----------

Hunters definitely have a lot of strengths, but they have a lot of weaknesses too. Strengths would include unloading a full focus bar and damn near solo'ing half the classes out there, strong cc, and readiness. The more broken stuff would be that spell-pen bug on traps (is that still in the game?), being unable to regen focus while getting los'd, and disengage not being nearly as good as blink, despite what you said. Also, as someone who plays a spriest, I've seen a lot of hunters die from dots while in deterrence.

Compare this to rogues, who have even stronger CC, smokebomb, and are a complete arse to kill with cloak, vanish, recup and cheat death. Yesterday my shadowplay team fought an RLS where we knocked the rogue out of stealth at the start, and he then rambo'd behind a pillar with us and we dropped him to 10% immediately. If that had been a hunter, warrior, priest, shaman, or a dozen other specs, he'd have been dead, but because it was a rogue he cloak>vanished and the next time we saw him 10 seconds later, he was at 90% hp. Hunters have their strengths, but right now it's stupid to complain about class being OP while rogues are out there.

Hunter damage is only dangerous during rapid fire or if your stupid enough, to let them get CS AiS combo off in the opener.
Otherwise hunter's are only good when played well, so if your losing to people playing better than you then what's the issue?

---------- Post added 2012-06-13 at 03:34 PM ----------

I don't see how Disengage is weaker than Blink. It doesn't break stuns, but Disengage also never, EVER fizzles based on terrain. Because it's not an instant linear movement like most every other movement ability (Heroic Leap is a linear movement effect, too; it might LOOK similar to Disengage but it's really more like a Blink or Charge), it means the Hunter's able to use terrain to his advantage when deciding when and where to Disengage. It's why bad Hunters die from jumping off a cliff or waste a Disengage by jumping into a wall two feet behind them (situational awareness is hard, apparently) and why good Hunters can get anywhere from 30-40yd of distance off a Disengage by using it in the right places.

How many times have you seen a Mage use their Blink to get away and go two feet forward, even when they're on what appears to be even terrain?

What bothers me about Hunters is that fucking EVERYTHING is instant. Aimed Shot is the only ability that requires them to actually stand the fuck still since Aspect of the Fox allows Steady Shot on the move, and it still can't be interrupted unless you can dead zone them - it's not like you can hit a hunter with a Counterspell to prevent them from dicking your healer with a 50k Aimed Shot crit. True, Rogue damage is also pretty crazy right now, but Rogue damage isn't ranged.

The damage and their bag of tricks doesn't bother me nearly so much as the fact that there's practically no restrictions or restraints placed on that damage does; they have the benefit of a spellcaster's range combined with the benefit of a melee's instant-everything with pretty much none of the drawbacks from either. Their ranged attacks are instant or otherwise can't be interrupted by Pummel, Wind Shear, etc, and by virtue of most of their attacks being instant, they don't have to deal with the cast times (and resulting issues) that spellcasters (particularly non-Mage spellcasters) have to deal with.

Hell, just nerfing Concussive Shot range to like 30 yards would be something. Drives me up the damn wall that Hunters get a physical snare that has 100% uptime, no resource cost, is instant, and has a 40 yd range. It's fucking ranged Hamstring without the resource cost >_<

EDIT: To make it clear, I'm aware that Hunters have weaknesses, and those can be exploited. My point is that I feel that their strengths far outweigh their weaknesses right now, and that it seems odd that, while people scream bloody murder about a Rogue and Shadowdance, they don't say a damn thing about a Hunter lining up an 80k-damage Aimed Shot combo.

80k aimed shot combo? want to get some more resi, i get 50k tops with a 410 weapon.
Disengage can be rooted mid flight, for example imp hamstring, frost nova or kidney stun that's why it isn't as op as you believe, even when you disengage it can be worse because a warrior will charge you and within that 1 second stun his other partner will catch up.
everything is instant? for every chimera shot, i need 3 steady shot's with my 2 set, for every arcane shot i need 2 steady shot's fired, how is this op? sure we get some minimalistic burst when we have a full focus bar, but if we receive no mastery proc's or crit's we do much less than you claim.
why should we be interupted? we're not caster's, and i have to juke scare beast vs. feral's.
Concussive shot is the thing that gives us a chance vs. melee, wanna try kiting a feral with like 143% base movement speed?
If a hunter lines up an 80k aimed shot combo you either need to start using resi or LoS it?

---------- Post added 2012-06-13 at 03:36 PM ----------

I'd say it was 80k if I felt I needed to lie to get a point across. Combat log said 42k with 4k overkill: 46k.

---------- Post added 2012-06-13 at 08:21 AM ----------



It's not just the damage itself, it's how the damage is delivered.

It's instant, and it's ranged, and it's not subject to issues faced by other ranged DPS (no cast times that can be interrupted.) The damage itself isn't really that out of place in a world of 100k shatter combos and Rogues running around with legendaries, it's more of a matter of how hard that damage is to avoid in the first place.

Incidentally, these attributes (high damage, damage is bursty, damage is very difficult to avoid relative to effort put into causing that damage) are the same things that make people say Rogues and Frost Mages are OP.

you can LoS hunter so easily, have you ever been on dalaran arena? we pop cd's you can waste a minimum of 7 second's of our cd's by your LoSing on that arena.

[Deleted]

As long as we cannot 1v1 healers and affliction warlocks we are not op. :-P

If we smack these two as efficiently as unholy DKs do, then yes, we could talk about being op (not saying UH DKs are, I just used them as an example for healers and affliction warlocks).

Btw. hunter arena representation is most of the time the lowest of all, currently only warriors somehow managed to be even worse.

I don't see how Disengage is weaker than Blink.

You could have forward disengage if we would get backwards blink. Would any mage want to trade? :-)
It's a 15 sec root and stun trinket, the most powerful ability that exists in this game (maybe vanish is better).
If I were allowed to choose one ability from any other class for my hunter, it would be blink or warlock fear.

What bothers me about Hunters is that fucking EVERYTHING is instant.

I can't tell you how annoying it is to cast aimed and steady. I wish they were instant :-) These cast time abilities greatly diminish the fun playing a hunter.

My point is that I feel that their strengths far outweigh their weaknesses right now...

What's up with the arena representation of hunters then? It seems like hunter teams are capable of winning tournaments, but joe average is overchallenged by playing a hunter at higher levels.


I feel ok as hunter, except for the first line I wrote in this text... that's just frustrating.
Healers or PvP healing is just insanely OP. The fact that hunters cannot beat affliction warlocks is a hunter problem, warlocks are fine.

On the other hand it's also a known fact that if someone feels that his class is balanced, then it's probably OP. Unfortunately I'm not quite there yet, but maybe in MoP. I hope I'll feel balanced in MoP :-)