Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The only fight I can come to think off where ranged doing adds for a dps loss is klaxxi (kunchons) and garrosh (iron star engineers).

Ret is incredibly strong single target. Anyone who says otherwise is clueless.
Ret is also incredibly strong on aoe after 4 piece.

What other melee would you bring to your ideal 25man setup? 3 rogues and?

Warriors, Ferals, Monks are decent. Ret is 3rd or 4th of the melee pack for single target atm so the things we bring (devos, hands, actually being a proper player) is what gives us (me at least) raid spots.

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That's right, but you can at least think about what that guy said and then decide whether or not it's bullshit.

Anaxie is rather sharp, but if something of interest shows up from someone everyone should look into it. If you don't get heard then go do some more testing and come back with some data, the information that's been flying around the last couple pages is just wild guesses as far as I'm concerned.

[Deleted]

Fredzilla I'm not sure if you are just plain ignorant or not willing to understand my posts. The average of 88700 strength is because it has a RPPM of 1.21. A fight might last 6 minutes, it might proc twice during the 1st minute and proc 0 during the second minute gving 88700 strength per minute for those 2 minutes, but in the end it will give you 88700 strength per minute on average. Stop reading something that isn't there, and stop twisting my words. My math was completly fine especially in comparing the 2 procs and how strong they were towards eachother. Nice usage of bold though thinking you hit the "Jackpot # post".

Also you seem to not understand that there is no point in comparing a snapshotted ES after the initial pull, since Spark will be able and continue to do so, to line up for the next ES too. If you really want to go into details, it is even easier to track when to "expect" a proc with it due to the stacks. I already addressed this in my posts, but you seem too stubborn to read more than 40% of my initial post. Simcraft obviously accounts for procrates and using CDs on pull, and as I mentioned, with regemming in my gear, it is few hundred more DPS increase. So my advice stays. Spark and Feather are interchangeable. Stop being retarded now and making up shit, or FINALLY come with some math or simulations to show how "Feather blows spark out of the water", even without hit.

This is exactly why I never post on MMO-C. Math is looked down on like a pestilence and hardly understod. Easier to just troll and call the other guy stupid.

[Neldarie]

Feather doesnt blow spark out of the water with 5.4 changes (mainly because spark stacks up in what 10-15secs? so is there for ur initial pull burst). In all honesty longer the fight goes Spark value just increases because of how you can plan shit around it while feather is more of "is it up? oh well no too bad, is it up now? maybe? what about now?" bullshit. ES snapshot in general is overrated as shit and doesn't account for jack-all of your total dmg so its very minor and highly overvalued by many in general (esp now with wepdmg/mastery and very low AP relatively).

[Deleted]

That is also why I would prefer to bring Paladins as Protection or Holy in 25m. In 10man I think the offhealing and utility is more than enough to justify a Ret, also considering Holy Paladins are not what I consider strong for 10man.

If you look at average DPS we're ranking 5th out of 7 classes. If you look at the Median we're sadly on the bottom being 7 out of 7. So I would definetly consider Ret a class that could easily be replaced by it's other specs in terms of utility. Numbers don't lie, but we'll have to see how it looks when more people get 4set vs. other classes, and we have more data to analyze. Bring the player, not the class is how I see Rets.

Edit: Careful Neldarie, you might get the hatetrain going for you. Remember to list your experience and quote yourself a few times. Head up!

[Neldarie]

Well t16 4set design is just retarded as shit considering every single fight this tier about SINGLE TARGET damage. But ye don't have 4set yet myself so won't draw my conclusions too soon. All I do know is that t16 4set will drag us down alot vs if it was more single target focused. Ilvls and shit do carry but lets see once people gear up: how far.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

you can take a peek at my armory (link in sig)
4set, normal Thok Polearm (no thok trinket yet) and I'm sitting at 16k haste and 12k mastery unbuffed, DP + 4set freaking flies on meters... you know the 3 fights this tier we're allowed to do so if your raid don't have enough warlocks (which my guild has 5 of).

[Deleted]

Fredzilla here is some more info taken from EJ:

Overview:
1. The new RPPM system will effectively guarantee that your RPPM trinket will proc every single time at the start of combat on a boss.
2. This system will NOT completely eliminate bad rng on trinket procs AFTER the start, you could still very well get screwed and wait very long times for your trinket to proc.
3. The changes will not take affect until 1.5*AverageProcInterval. So your trinket that procs every 90 seconds on average won't get any "RNG" assistance until 135 seconds have passed.
4. This buffs trinkets with lower RPPMs more than higher RPPMs. The guaranteed proc at the start is a huge part of it, as the trinkets with lower RPPMs tend to have very significant procs to make up for the lower uptime. (Spark has lower RPPM than Feather)

[Neldarie]

you can take a peek at my armory (link in sig)
4set, normal Thok Polearm (no thok trinket yet) and I'm sitting at 16k haste and 12k mastery unbuffed, DP + 4set freaking flies on meters... you know the 3 fights this tier we're allowed to do so if your raid don't have enough warlocks (which my guild has 5 of).

I was refering to usefull dmg this tier aka hard fights only where it actually matters. And no I don't need to look anywhere because I actually do rank. Besides if you aren't using SW with CDR trink + 4set on single target fights : newsflash you're doing it wrong.

[Fredzilla]

Fredzilla here is some more info taken from EJ:

Overview:
1. The new RPPM system will effectively guarantee that your RPPM trinket will proc every single time at the start of combat on a boss.
2. This system will NOT completely eliminate bad rng on trinket procs AFTER the start, you could still very well get screwed and wait very long times for your trinket to proc.
3. The changes will not take affect until 1.5*AverageProcInterval. So your trinket that procs every 90 seconds on average won't get any "RNG" assistance until 135 seconds have passed.
4. This buffs trinkets with lower RPPMs more than higher RPPMs. The guaranteed proc at the start is a huge part of it, as the trinkets with lower RPPMs tend to have very significant procs to make up for the lower uptime. (Spark has lower RPPM than Feather)

Technically, the proc doesn't have rppm mechanics at all, it's each individual stack that does. And since those have like 10x the proc rate of feather, it'd actually more likely to help feather than spark.

Also, your attention to detail is lacking, apparently, since the reason for my editting before was because it was my 777th post. Try to keep your imagination in line a little more. You also still can't say you get an average of 88000 strength from any proc per minute, because it's still ignoring the time the proc isn't active for 5/6 of that time (on average). As I said, it's impossible for an average of numbers to be higher than the highest individual number of those being averaged. This isn't even a problem with your math, per say, but dealing with the basic definition of an average.

I also already said "blowing it out of the water" was an overstatement I made, but you didn't seem to read that (though you criticize me for doing the same thing). I have no problems with math, but if you're messing up the basic definition of one of the simplest mathematical functions (an average), I'm more than leery of the rest of it. And simcraft can account for everything it wants, but in your math, you don't. However minute of an impact ES snapshotting may be in the grand scheme of things with all math accounted for, you can't ignore it in your math without knowing 100% what that contribution is, and showing us so, so that you can go on to ignore it because it's so inconsequential. Same with the proc on pull. Also, you may be able to track better when the str proc from spark will occur, that doesn't make it better for ES if feather still procs as well, since it's a stronger proc at the end of the duration than spark is.

And as I also mentioned, when you referenced min/maxing in your previous post, you cannot say they are interchangeable if one is still better than the other. Min/maxing by definition is getting the absolute most bang for your buck, which would mean you can't use spark if you have feather.

[xarxz]

If you aren't using SW with CDR trink + 4set on single target fights : newsflash you're doing it wrong.

did 332k on malkorok with dp last week. clearly doing something wrong.

[Charleslol]

did 332k on malkorok with dp last week. clearly doing something wrong.

You don't cleave adds?

[xarxz]

i hit ds when 4p procs and hit tv when dp procs, doesnt matter if adds are up or not. i have higher boss dmg than everyone on wol top 20. i dont go out of my way to aoe the adds, there are better classes for that job than ret lmao...


edit: log private obviously. gm refuses to make public just to spite me.

[Charleslol]

i hit ds when 4p procs and hit tv when dp procs, doesnt matter if adds are up or not. i have higher boss dmg than everyone on wol top 20. i dont go out of my way to aoe the adds, there are better classes for that job than ret lmao...


edit: log private obviously. gm refuses to make public just to spite me.

That's pretty neat. Doing good single target DPS with DP doesn't mean it's better than SW for single target.

[xarxz]

so what youre saying is that because i was ignoring aoe and executing my single target rotation, i only did more damage to my primary target because others rets were aoeing instead of going ham on the boss...

if they were using SW to smash the boss as hard as possible while ignoring possible aoe opportunities and i still did more dmg to the boss than them, doesnt it logically follow that dp is completely viable for single target bosses?

tl;dr: others used SW and "supposedly" tunneled boss, i used DP and tunneled boss and had higher boss dmg and my overall dmg was higher because of the extra cleave opportunities that DP presents (by way of more dp procs = more finishers = more chances to proc free DS)

[Charleslol]

so what youre saying is that because i was ignoring aoe and executing my single target rotation, i only did more damage to my primary target because others rets were aoeing instead of going ham on the boss...

if they were using SW to smash the boss as hard as possible while ignoring possible aoe opportunities and i still did more dmg to the boss than them, doesnt it logically follow that dp is completely viable for single target bosses?

tl;dr: others used SW and "supposedly" tunneled boss, i used DP and tunneled boss and had higher boss dmg and my overall dmg was higher because of the extra cleave opportunities that DP presents (by way of more dp procs = more finishers = more chances to proc free DS)

Yes, I agree. SW > DP.

[Fredzilla]

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. You can't use one instance of something, or even twenty, or in WoW, two hundred, to say with any real amount of certainty what is or is not. Beyond gearing discrepancies, and not to belittle anyone's accomplishments, a not-insignificant portion of DPS is determined by RNG, especially with t16 4pc and DP. You could get half the procs you had that pull next time for all anyone knows.

[Grizzlybarry]

I got the shoulders off Ordos tonight, think I should use them over the regular legs (non warforged) from garrosh as my off set item?

[Floross]

Doesn't Galakras combined with UbrSpirit make us ridiculously good defense wise ? Maybe it's just me but I don't think any other dps out there can mitigate 40% magic damage for 10 seconds on a 20 second cooldown.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I'm progressing Malkorok atm, got freedom and divine protection up for every single swirly zone, + a really short cd on bubble.
I also run 5 mans with glyphed divine protection and queue as tank and just go through dungeons doing 75%+ of the damage and 60% of the heal / absorbs. Spin 2 win, retstyle.

[Deleted]

I'm progressing Malkorok atm, got freedom and divine protection up for every single swirly zone, + a really short cd on bubble.
I also run 5 mans with glyphed divine protection and queue as tank and just go through dungeons doing 75%+ of the damage and 60% of the heal / absorbs. Spin 2 win, retstyle.

LK days all over again

Remembering when I was just puing t10 4p and pvp pieces fo rhp pool, RF on and tank heroics in ret