Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's not hard. But it's annoying. No Annoying doesn't equate fun. Not in this context. I can understand the PG Complaint but this? No. I'm not going to say the sky is falling until I see what goes on in Beta and live.

[anaxie]

Good for you and no one should be using clc ret. Ret dps is not hard that's why it's so funny when people say removing Inq would dumb the spec down!

And don't it look just silly when you tell someone to chill and then freak out over an editbox

You might be missing the point.

So i'll say it for tenth time. INqusition removal is completely stupid IF IT DOESNT GO PASSIVE ONLY. I don't give 2 fucks about hitting the button. What i do care about is our entire damage is built around it being up. We literally need 100% gutted and reworked from the ground up with enough scaling factors so we don't suck dick since that is a huge issue of the classes. Nevermind Inqu and Two handed spec are our core scaling factors.

Do you seriously think blizzard is going to gut and retune ret damage entirely and we aren't going to be left in a completely screwed over state. Well pardon me not being optimistic after 10 years of the same song replaying each and every beta.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Does EVERYTHING have to be fun? If so then remove ALL abilities but Templar's Verdict and remove holy power! Yes, that sounds awesome!

The biggest problem I have is trying to understand how removing Inq makes ret more "fun" to play, you're removing gameplay and expect it to somehow end up being better? I guess moonkin would be more fun if Wrath applied Sunfire and Mangle applied Rake. Or maybe Chaos Bolt applied Immolation, be fucking real. In no way, shape or form is REMOVING Inq going to make ret more fun!
If you want ret to be more "fun" ask for a new spell on top of Inq. At this point Ret is going to be forced to a complete rework for the 4th time because people somehow don't like maintaining ONE buff, other specs have maintenance dots/buffs that they've had for YEARS without crying about it!

Please stop before you ruin the best playable ret EVER to be in wow, you're honestly making me sad/angry/frustrated/lose faith in gamers.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Does EVERYTHING have to be fun? If so then remove ALL abilities but Templar's Verdict and remove holy power! Yes, that sounds awesome!

The biggest problem I have is trying to understand how removing Inq makes ret more "fun" to play, you're removing gameplay and expect it to somehow end up being better? I guess moonkin would be more fun if Wrath applied Sunfire and Mangle applied Rake. Or maybe Chaos Bolt applied Immolation, be fucking real. In no way, shape or form is REMOVING Inq going to make ret more fun!
If you want ret to be more "fun" ask for a new spell on top of Inq. At this point Ret is going to be forced to a complete rework for the 4th time because people somehow don't like maintaining ONE buff, other specs have maintenance dots/buffs that they've had for YEARS without crying about it!

Please stop before you ruin the best playable ret EVER to be in wow, you're honestly making me sad/angry/frustrated/lose faith in gamers.

Best playable Ret in your opinion. I agree it's better then the state of entry level Cata. Doesn't mean we can't improve things. It's not like it's perfect. Nothing is. I don't play all the other classes but I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about Ret.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Hi,
I was wondering about the opening rotation at pull, I noticed that I'm making more damage (around 800k+) when not consuming all of the 4p Procs, instead of consuming all of them, in which case I'm making around 600/700k. So my question is it just some random mastery luck on each pull, or is there any special rotation dealing with the 4p procs during the opening ?
I know this doesn't mean that much on the whole fight, but I like to see big numbers.

I put 4p proc between my TV.

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Best playable Ret in your opinion. I agree it's better then the state of entry level Cata. Doesn't mean we can't improve things. It's not like it's perfect. Nothing is. I don't play all the other classes but I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about Ret.

With the exeption of Inq (which you people seem think is bad) what's wrong with how our rotation (fcfs) and different cds play? If you have enough haste you'll almost never have open spots in your rotation.
Can I ask when you think ret was better? If you say ICC I'm not gonna take you seriously again.

[Basemath]

Hello dearies. My Ret is a Blacksmith/Enchanter. I wanna drop one of them for Engineering. Which one would you keep for WoD? I've been wanting to drop BS cuz I foreshadow a lot of 'lame' while lvling in WoD n not being able to disenchant. Sorry if the question seems insignificant or unrelated to theory-crafting.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Hi,
I was wondering about the opening rotation at pull, I noticed that I'm making more damage (around 800k+) when not consuming all of the 4p Procs, instead of consuming all of them, in which case I'm making around 600/700k. So my question is it just some random mastery luck on each pull, or is there any special rotation dealing with the 4p procs during the opening ?
I know this doesn't mean that much on the whole fight, but I like to see big numbers.

If you want/need the gold boost then keep enchanting. Blacksmithing is almost guaranteed to be our best profession in WoD (wait for end of beta before we know for sure, we'll let ppl know) Engineering is always going to be strong so you should drop enchanting for it if you want to min/max. It's certainly not required unless you're extremely into min/maxing. Jewel Crafting is also looking to be very strong in WoD.

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[Regen]

Why do you think JC will be strong? I was thinking about dropping it with the loss of the way gems are now (EG not making a ton of money off of it)

[BobAwesome]

Just because something is a "maintenance buff" doesn't mean it's inherently boring or dull. As bear points out there are spells / sections of rotations that are "maintenance"-like but that doesn't mean they're boring.
The more things a spec has to "maintain" (pay attention to / watch) the higher the skillcap on said class, as it's way easier to miss one millisecond of detail when watching like 5 timers.
So removing one thing ret has to "maintain" dumbs down the spec in the sense that its just less stuff to do, less places for "skillful decisions" to shine.

Now we still have to see how ret's progress in beta to see how our rotation pans out but in the current state of ret if nothing much else were to change, except inq was removed, it would in essence just be simplifying the spec

The thing about Inq compared to other maintenance buffs is how simple it is to manage compared to say Slice and Dice or Savage Roar.

You might be missing the point.

So i'll say it for tenth time. INqusition removal is completely stupid IF IT DOESNT GO PASSIVE ONLY. I don't give 2 fucks about hitting the button. What i do care about is our entire damage is built around it being up. We literally need 100% gutted and reworked from the ground up with enough scaling factors so we don't suck dick since that is a huge issue of the classes. Nevermind Inqu and Two handed spec are our core scaling factors.

Do you seriously think blizzard is going to gut and retune ret damage entirely and we aren't going to be left in a completely screwed over state. Well pardon me not being optimistic after 10 years of the same song replaying each and every beta.

Oh no, I totally agree that Ret would suffer if it lost 30% damage and 10% crit, no doubt about it. My point is, why bother not making it passive or baking it into something else given how easy it is to maintain and doesn't offer anything exciting?

Does EVERYTHING have to be fun? If so then remove ALL abilities but Templar's Verdict and remove holy power! Yes, that sounds awesome!

The biggest problem I have is trying to understand how removing Inq makes ret more "fun" to play, you're removing gameplay and expect it to somehow end up being better? I guess moonkin would be more fun if Wrath applied Sunfire and Mangle applied Rake. Or maybe Chaos Bolt applied Immolation, be fucking real. In no way, shape or form is REMOVING Inq going to make ret more fun!
If you want ret to be more "fun" ask for a new spell on top of Inq. At this point Ret is going to be forced to a complete rework for the 4th time because people somehow don't like maintaining ONE buff, other specs have maintenance dots/buffs that they've had for YEARS without crying about it!

Please stop before you ruin the best playable ret EVER to be in wow, you're honestly making me sad/angry/frustrated/lose faith in gamers.

Yes things need to be fun. This is a video game. That's the whole point of video games... FUN. Are you allergic to fun? I'm surprised BC's Seal twisting ret isn't your favorite...

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Why do you think JC will be strong? I was thinking about dropping it with the loss of the way gems are now (EG not making a ton of money off of it)

Gems will be stronger in WoD (or so they say) because there's going to be a lot fewer gem sockets on gear, it might not be "stronger" than the other profession bonuses but if they fix the problem JC had in MoP (secondary stat JC gems didn't scale 2x as they should) then it's pretty much going to be the same as BS. For some classes (ret for one) 2mastery is (at this moment anyways) stronger than 1 strength, so if BS stays as it is (2 free gem sockets = 2x mastery gems or whatever is gonna be best in WoD) and JC gets properly scaled (secondary stats having 2x the rating of prime stats) then JC + BS are the only 2 professions that allow you to get secondary stats as a bonus. Like I mentioned 2 mastery > 1 str for ret atm. If that stays then JC + BS will most likely be the strongest combination because they're the only 2 that give secondary stats as a bonus if you so chose.

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Yes things need to be fun. This is a video game. That's the whole point of video games... FUN. Are you allergic to fun? I'm surprised BC's Seal twisting ret isn't your favorite...

Questing isn't fun to me.
Dailies (questing) isn't fun to me.
Farming gold for raid consumables isn't fun to me.
Why shouldn't we get rid of those?
Answer: because they add gameplay, regardless of being "fun" or not it's something you can and should do to play optimally.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't use any addon to do my rotation.. I never said things were better during ICC. I think we're in a better spot then usual. Doesn't mean it's perfect. ICC may have been *boring* but barring being *OP* somehow and the Seal of Blood nonsense. I did like the whole Seal of the Crusader debuff. I guess I got used to that. I know the rotation of ICC can't exist in the current iteration due to balance isssues.


I did like using Divine Storm as my hard hitter Holy Power doesn't bother me. It did during Cata because of the crappy rate we got it. I felt like a Holy Rogue. Still do but it's not to a point of *Ugh this is fucking annoying*.

Nothing below right now was when Ret was *better*. ICC may of had it's pros but it had cons as well. If I had to choose between Now MoP and Cata and ICC. I'd chose MoP then ICC then Cata. Why? MoP is tolerable. Inq isn't as bad as it used to be but still tedious. Cata was annoying as hell.

In ICC I didn't like hearing


"NERF PALLIES"

Questing isn't fun to me.
Dailies (questing) isn't fun to me.
Farming gold for raid consumables isn't fun to me.
Why shouldn't we get rid of those?
Answer: because they add gameplay, regardless of being "fun" or not it's something you can and should do to play optimally.

Catering to just one person entirely isn't going to work. I'd say you have a very unique view on things. And that's putting it nicely. I enjoy questing(Compared to Vanilla stuff). We also know there is actually a difference between fun and actual compelling gameplay that isn't tedious.

But that's for another thread.

[anaxie]

Hello dearies. My Ret is a Blacksmith/Enchanter. I wanna drop one of them for Engineering. Which one would you keep for WoD? I've been wanting to drop BS cuz I foreshadow a lot of 'lame' while lvling in WoD n not being able to disenchant. Sorry if the question seems insignificant or unrelated to theory-crafting.

Droppeding blacksmithing with sockets becoming something rare to see on items would likely be the worst decision profession wise

[Zabannith]

The thing about Inq compared to other maintenance buffs is how simple it is to manage compared to say Slice and Dice or Savage Roar.

Except that SnD has cut to the chase so the rogue(if they are assassination) doesn't even have to hit SnD again all they hit is envenom and come WoD it will be baseline passive for assassination ... real hard to manage eh?,
Savage roar, most cats glyph is so they can apply it with no combo points... they start the fight with it and have no ramp up time... so hard to maintain the rest of the fight they pool cp for it like we pool hp for it when its about to run out , literally no difference.

Oh no, I totally agree that Ret would suffer if it lost 30% damage and 10% crit, no doubt about it. My point is, why bother not making it passive or baking it into something else given how easy it is to maintain and doesn't offer anything exciting?

Also , its more than just loosing 30% holy dmg and 10% crit , our class core is based around inquisition , if it goes away and is not made passive then ret will have to be 100% reworked and rebalanced around it , the synergy it has with our mastery , remove inquisition and our mastery will have to be re worked and rebalanced , for some reason (most) people (here) can't seem to see the fact that if they get rid of inquisition then we will need a 100% rework from the ground up ..yet again.... we just went though this in cata , we went trough it in wrath , and before that in bc.

It is also historical fact that when ret gets reworked we suck ass until at least the end of that expansion or the next because blizz leaves ret numbers/mechanics tuning until what seems like the week before expansion release , despite the fact that we tell them over and over 10000000 times that shit is broken, and they still don't listen to us and we pay the consequences for it...and I for one am tired of playing a half developed spec while other classes who are doing just fine and don't need any love continue to get more attention than they need .

When it all comes down to people saying "its boring " or "I cant be bothered to push it every min because id rather tv" or " its not engaging" , people need to realize the ramifications of the removal of inquisition ,I for one and a few others here can see the possible problems this will cause , why can't everybody else?

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE .... If you guys want it made passive fine , but the removal will have dire consequences for us ..this holds true if the spell name stays but the effect becomes something different unless they make the current version passive .

/end rant

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I know it will have dire consequences. Believe me I know. Without that, Paladins would be gimped to a big degree hence why passive or somewhere it's baked in.

[anaxie]

Nevermind the larger issue of SoB needing to be gutted fromt he spec entirely in our overhaul. The ability to not go into haste through reforing makes the dire situation ahead plain to see.

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Forgot gems * Fucking edit button >.<

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Also Aeluron I don't think you understand. You cannot simply bake the damage of inqu into other abilities and say GOOD DAY. It is a SCALING FACTOR to the class. Who gives a fuck if CS / J / EXo do more dps if we still use hammer spam. it just got gutted, Mastery got gutted, Seals , censure, new holy TV got gutted.

The removal of it is as bad as removing 2H spec entirely or for a situation that actually happened. Changing 2H spec from 25% to 10%. I'm sure we remember that last minute change in a certain beta. HURR HURRRR

[Zabannith]

Nevermind the larger issue of SoB needing to be gutted fromt he spec entirely in our overhaul. The ability to not go into haste through reforing makes the dire situation ahead plain to see.

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Forgot gems * Fucking edit button >.<

For sure , if they leave SoB as it is , can you say downtime for the first 2 raid tiers?

Remember people . not every piece of gear will have a gem slot , blizz has already said that there will be less gem slots but you will have stronger gems , iirc they said the same about enchants , we won't be able to enchant every piece of gear , however we will have more options , but we all know that there will be only one set of enchants we use .. so much for the illusion of choice

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Cata was horrid until we got certain tier bonuses.
Problem with using DS as your single target finisher is that it had cleave/aoe bound to it, imo if you cleave you should always lose single target as a result. (just look at how retarded broken destruction warlocks and BM hunters are when they open on Garrosh HC)
ICC was fine in the fact that we had very few "limitations" to what we hit, but then again it was almost impossible to tell a good ret from an amazing ret and like it or not THAT was a problem. Any game (imo) needs to have something competitiveness in it, either with yourself (beating old high-scores etc) or against others. (in wow you compete against ppl you share class with because class balance will never be perfect- yadda yadda)

I use clc ret, I have it set to what I've found to be the best ability priority. However I don't follow it blindly, in fact I hardly ever follow it 100%. Reason why I have it is because I call things in our raids and doing so and keeping track of a combo point system, a maintenance buff and a 3 spell prio list + 1 finisher and procs + staying on top of the encounter is a lot for me. Does it make me bad? sure, maybe. Could I do without CLC ret? Ofcourse, but I wouldn't be able to raidcall and still do the same numbers while also trying to utilize things like Lay on Hands, Selfless Healer, Sacrifice and so on. If I didn't have CLC ret I'd set up weak auras to do the same thing...
Also the hate to CLC ret is so much BS, it's a tool that CAN help you. Much like football shoes CAN help you on wet grass and take some of the pain from kicking the ball. Just like Weak Auras isn't required to raid it helps you enormously with giving you the information you need in a "better" way.

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I know it will have dire consequences. Believe me I know. Without that, Paladins would be gimped to a big degree hence why passive or somewhere it's baked in.

You're saying Inquisition is boring, how is making it a passive going to make it more fun? All that does is dumbing down the spec even more. Hitting 1 button every 45-60 seconds (or as it was before 28-34 seconds) is NOT something to make such a big deal out of.
I'm all for making Inquisition baked into something or adding something to Inquisition to make it more meaningful but for fucks sake, don't say that it should be removed like so many other haters of it keep yelling about.

[Zabannith]

Also , I'm going to guess that if they do go ahead an remove inquisitor and its not passive , that we will not use final verdict , simply because it won't have the double dip inq dmg plus mastery and inq on top of the mastery , Tv will likely be stronger , given that its higher weapon dm.

IIRC somebody did some rough napkin math to comapre the 2 and FV was ~ 30% stronger given the inq bonus , the mastery then the inq bonus applied to mastery

now its not going to be , i suppose it'd be easy to math out now and compare the 2 again

[Basemath]

Cool thanks for the responses Bear n Anaxie. Dropping enchanting. Glad I asked here first Would've derped and dropped BS otherwise, and oh the chore to re-level that.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Nevermind the larger issue of SoB needing to be gutted fromt he spec entirely in our overhaul. The ability to not go into haste through reforing makes the dire situation ahead plain to see.

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Forgot gems * Fucking edit button >.<

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Also Aeluron I don't think you understand. You cannot simply bake the damage of inqu into other abilities and say GOOD DAY. It is a SCALING FACTOR to the class. Who gives a fuck if CS / J / EXo do more dps if we still use hammer spam. it just got gutted, Mastery got gutted, Seals , censure, new holy TV got gutted.

The removal of it is as bad as removing 2H spec entirely or for a situation that actually happened. Changing 2H spec from 25% to 10%. I'm sure we remember that last minute change in a certain beta. HURR HURRRR

I said passive because that's all the ideas I have in my head atm. I'm not saying my way is right. I just think things can still be improved, wherever that is. Seal of Blood IMO was stupid. If I had to do it again I would but I'd treat it the same way I'd be treating Inquisition atm. Minor annoyance but I can look past it.

Just telling you I know what we'd lose. But I'm not 100% satisfied. I have more complaints about the Talents then the rotation itself(Barring CLICK AW,HA and GOAK) AND FUCK THE TARGETS COUCH AND ADD HIS SKULL TO THE SKULL THRONE


FOR LORDAERON!


I can't read at the pace of you guys typing. ._.

You're saying Inquisition is boring, how is making it a passive going to make it more fun? All that does is dumbing down the spec even more. Hitting 1 button every 45-60 seconds (or as it was before 28-34 seconds) is NOT something to make such a big deal out of.
I'm all for making Inquisition baked into something or adding something to Inquisition to make it more meaningful but for fucks sake, don't say that it should be removed like so many other haters of it keep yelling about.

I never said making it a passive is more fun. It removes the tediousness of it. Something would need to be in place to make the spec *fun*/compelling/entertaining. I only suggested it because I don't have many ideas. Making Inq a passive and call it a day would be well...silly.