True Capitalism or True Communism?

[Foosha]

True communism never works in the long run. Basic nature says, if I can achieve the same thing with less work, I will do that without question and hesitation. Enjoy .1 doctors per capita and 25 janitors per capita

[ElfinHilon10]

I think only people that never actually *lived* under communism can wish for it, true form or not.
I have lived in communism.
It became a horrible dictatorship.

That didnt happen because people here are innately stupid or barbaric or rude or evil. Do you think that it started here as under ideas of Dictatorship? No, it didnt. It started with the Utopian idea(l)s that people can work for themselves, that everyone should have equal, that the state should be a means to do good.. It was also enforced by a horrible civil war under the guise of a world war.

In 40 years, big companies were built and destroyed completely because their "CEOs" were political appointees who didnt care about losses/gains, since they were only politically responsible to keep paying workers and saying the right ideological things on TV. They cared about having huge salaries and benefits, they cared about employing their whole families, and their family's friends, so they can have the votes of the "workers". Companies operated under 5 year plans, which tried to control things that were not controllable. Or assume that in 5 years everything will be the same.

To keep paying workers the state printed money. Why wouldnt they? There was no democratic control. why? Because in Communism, there is no democracy. You are either with us or against us. There is one party, because, "omfg, you either love people and workers and you belong to Communists, or you are an evil capitalist pig".

You can choose to ignore the terrors that were happening in Soviet Union (Russia+other independent countries now) and Eastern Europe during and post Communism, or what is still happening in the world under Communist rules, and think: "In a true democracy, the terrors would never happen". This is where you would be wrong: give it 50 years and see what Communism does to *any* democracy.

After living 2/3 of my life under Communism and post-Communism, I value political and economical freedom. Those that take it for granted, dont know how big a deal it really is. I hope you never learn.

Dictatorship is NOT communism. I can understand your frustrations here, but they are irrelevant to the question asked. It asking true communism or true capitalism, ignoring the corruption and so forth, assuming that both are what they actually are in the purest form with the best of intentions.

---------- Post added 2012-07-06 at 02:21 AM ----------

True communism never works in the long run. Basic nature says, if I can achieve the same thing with less work, I will do that without question and hesitation. Enjoy .1 doctors per capita and 25 janitors per capita

Again, the question doesn't ask to acknowledge corruption that can lead with either of them. It assumes that both have a way or a system to 100% negate corruption and the like.

[schwarzkopf]

True Capitalism or true Communism?

True capitalism by far, problem is - it is far easier to get true communism.

True capitalism depends on people doing the right thing, true communism only relies on the system doing the right thing.

True communism by definition means a severe lack of freedom.

[jouissance]

The problem is that some people can't, like the mentally ill and disabled. I feel like the point of having a sophisticated society is to help the ones that wouldn't otherwise make it. In True Capitalism who is going to sacrifise/dedicate some of their wealth and profit to help those who can't help themselves?

just a small example. And it comes from Slate, not known as a big pro-capitalist media.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/t...late_60_2.html

[kivipää]

I have lived in communism.

No you didn't. There has never been communism in effect anywhere on this planet. Just systems that called themselves communism and claimed to be communism, but were not communism, which was invented before they came. The poll asks about actual communism, not the fake communism that was recently in effect in many places on this planet.
What you describe is exactly why true communism will never happen. Humans will abuse their power for personal gain. What the poll asks here is would we have an actual, true communism where that thing simply does not happen, where shops would have shoes of all sizes and for both legs, and everyone would get a pair. Where there would be no secret police and no wire-tapping because everybody would be in it together and there was no corruption. If it really became the utopia it was supposed to be. If we could have the communism that none of us, you included, never experienced, and none of us will ever experience. The twisted mockery you have lived in has nothing to do with true communism.

[Deleted]

Neither works in real life. But capitalism is the closest to what we have now.

[jouissance]

Dictatorship is NOT communism. I can understand your frustrations here, but they are irrelevant to the question asked. It asking true communism or true capitalism, ignoring the corruption and so forth, assuming that both are what they actually are in the purest form with the best of intentions.

---------- Post added 2012-07-06 at 02:21 AM ----------

Read my whole post. I said clearly it did NOT start as a Dictatorship, but it turned out into one.



Again, the question doesn't ask to acknowledge corruption that can lead with either of them. It assumes that both have a way or a system to 100% negate corruption and the like.

Ok. As I already stated, I value freedom most. Freedom does not negate helping those most in need out (as proven by massive amounts of donations given to medical research, charities and other forms of societal help). But it does negate the idea that those who earn most MUST share.
http://youtu.be/PGMQZEIXBMs

[Bolson13]

Capitalism - being a slave for a massive company with more power then the government. People do realise that capitalism means no labour laws, no unions etc. right? It means working in sweatshop conditions because that is the most efficient. No government interference to help you in any way.

Communism - being a slave for the government. Pretty obvious why it is fail. Check the communes Mao erected in China. All kids being taken from their parents and looked after separately because it is more efficient.


So a little rediculous to choose between the two.

[jouissance]

No you didn't. There has never been communism in effect anywhere on this planet. Just systems that called themselves communism and claimed to be communism, but were not communism, which was invented before they came. The poll asks about actual communism, not the fake communism that was recently in effect in many places on this planet.
What you describe is exactly why true communism will never happen. Humans will abuse their power for personal gain. What the poll asks here is would we have an actual, true communism where that thing simply does not happen, where shops would have shoes of all sizes and for both legs, and everyone would get a pair. Where there would be no secret police and no wire-tapping because everybody would be in it together and there was no corruption. If it really became the utopia it was supposed to be. If we could have the communism that none of us, you included, never experienced, and none of us will ever experience. The twisted mockery you have lived in has nothing to do with true communism.

Our lives happen now. Not in any utopias. Values of communism determine how you vote now. My point was: the more you give your independence (political and societal) away to your government in hope they will take care of you and others, the more that is less likely to happen.

You can pretend it is all somehow divorced from reality, because we are talking about some imaginary world. Your beliefs matter, you should be really careful where you place them. Thats all I am saying.

[Deleted]

I voted for true communism, cause it would be great if it worked.
We know it's an utopia though, for a few more decades at least. Maybe some day humanity will have the tools and the education to make it work.

[kivipää]

Our lives happen now. Not in any utopias. Values of communism determine how you vote now. My point was: the more you give your independence (political and societal) away to your government in hope they will take care of you and others, the more that is less likely to happen.

You can pretend it is all somehow divorced from reality, because we are talking about some imaginary world. Your beliefs matter, you should be really careful where you place them. Thats all I am saying.

We are talking about the imaginary world here, situations that will never really occur. We were asked to choose from two imaginary worlds and decide which one was better. We were not talking about the real world.
Why would you think, even for a second, that how we think of some fantastic imaginary world that we know wont work and we know to be completely incompatible with human nature would somehow effect on how we vote? That is a ridiculous notion. We do not need to pretend true communism is dicorced from reality. It is. Why would we try to acheve something we know does not work and will inevitably fail? After all the explaining I've done, you still do not understand my belief;

True communism is good. True communism can never be achieved. Instead, aim for realistic alternatives, that definitely does not include anything called communism.

I hope I am getting through to you. I really do. Because every post you make, it seems it's you who gets more and more ocnfused on what is real and what is not. We aren't mixing imaginary world with the real world. You shouldn't either.

[Adam Jensen]

In a perfect world, communism.

Since we can't have a perfect world, a mix of the two.

Pure capitalism would suck for anyone who isn't wealthy.

---------- Post added 2012-07-06 at 06:35 AM ----------

No you didn't. There has never been communism in effect anywhere on this planet. Just systems that called themselves communism and claimed to be communism, but were not communism, which was invented before they came. The poll asks about actual communism, not the fake communism that was recently in effect in many places on this planet.
What you describe is exactly why true communism will never happen. Humans will abuse their power for personal gain. What the poll asks here is would we have an actual, true communism where that thing simply does not happen, where shops would have shoes of all sizes and for both legs, and everyone would get a pair. Where there would be no secret police and no wire-tapping because everybody would be in it together and there was no corruption. If it really became the utopia it was supposed to be. If we could have the communism that none of us, you included, never experienced, and none of us will ever experience. The twisted mockery you have lived in has nothing to do with true communism.

I really wish the USSR and China and N Korea never referred to themselves as communist. They've ruined it for everyone. Now everyone assumes that those nations are shining examples of communism, when they've never actually achieved true communism.

[sdracklryeg]

Neither have ever worked and never will.

That being said, if you could by some magic make them work, I'd go with communism, I mean WHY NOT? It's as Technologically great as True Capitalism except you'd work less and get better care from others.

[Deleted]

Assuming that by "true communism" you mean the version created by Marx and Engels, il go with communism.

[Brutes]

Both hypotetical situations are impossible and very destructive. I suggest you to read up some history books if you claim otherwise, neither of these situations is preferable or possible.

[Zecora]

Capitalism - being a slave for a massive company with more power then the government. People do realise that capitalism means no labour laws, no unions etc. right? It means working in sweatshop conditions because that is the most efficient. No government interference to help you in any way.

Communism - being a slave for the government. Pretty obvious why it is fail. Check the communes Mao erected in China. All kids being taken from their parents and looked after separately because it is more efficient.


So a little rediculous to choose between the two.

Do you realise that in true communism, there IS no government as we understand the term?

Anyhow, I'd take True Communism any day, but I don't think it is possible to make it work at present, except in small scale (where it works perfectly well).
True Capitalism on the other hand, would probably be possible, but it would be hell for anyone who didn't manage to claw their way to the top of the pile.

So. One is unrealistic, the other undesirable. I still made my vote for True Communism, but I would have liked there to be an option for Democratic Socialism too. Interesting poll though, gives hope for humanity (so far*, anyhow!).

*)EDIT: Current "score: 74.36% in favour of True Communism.

[Wikiy]

I am so surprised by the poll. Pleasantly surprised though. And it's funny how Capitalism has the red line and Communism the blue line.

[xenogear3]

Capitalism - many monopoly companies
Communism - dictatorship

True capitalism cannot exist because we cannot let people starving to death.
True communism cannot exist because no one will do any real work.

[Kasierith]

Capitalism - many monopoly companies
Communism - dictatorship

True capitalism cannot exist because we cannot let people starving to death.
True communism cannot exist because no one will do any real work.

Please point out where true communism makes use of a dictator?

[Deleted]

Neither - rather Anarchy.