Police kill man after knocking on wrong door

[LocNess]

well it works for just about every western country, so i dont really know what to tell you.
Even in the united states, some of the police officers, actually manage to disarm people without sending multiple slugs at them.

If he, as people are saying in this thread, had the gun drawn and pointed out the door, simply stepping away, would change the situation to a more manageable one.
if they had Stepped out of his line of sight, (beside the door, standard) and announce their intent, this man could of, hell, would of lived.

Simply shooting him because they could, is wrong.

And the US is a lot bigger than every western country. Also we can own guns. And since we are a lot bigger, we have a lot more batshit insane people who wouldn't mind pumping a few rounds into cops (see amount of hatred towards them this forum generates). We have to be like this or else we have a lot more cop deaths than we already do. It is just our culture.

[Flappy]

It's lawfull for citizens to use weapons for self defense...

Please explain to me how a knock on your door at an unusual hour qualifies for this degree of self defense.

[Purlina]

In Britain we have these wonderful things called chain locks.

If the victim had shouted who is it first are the cops not legally obliged to identify themselves?

It is, but we have no way of knowing if the dead person asked the police to identify themselves...

[Deleted]

It's lawfull for citizens to use weapons for self defense...

If you point a gun at someone you intend to use it, you can not use it in self defence without first identifying what it is you are defending yourself against.

[Deleted]

If I as a citizen went to the wrong house, knocked on their door and then reacted and shoot 1st after seeing the resident has a gun... What would happen to me? I would be charged with manslaughter at least and homicide at the worst... But if I am an agent of the state... Well then not even a slap on the wrist.

There is no rule of law in this country anymore. Agents of the state literally can get away with murder whereas us common folk get thrown in prison for accidentally causing traffic accidents.

[gamingmuscle]

Safer for the cops, sure. For everyone else? Not so much....

Because Police announce, criminal starts opening fire and hit a bystander, or a cop, or a hostage. And since when isn't a police officers safety important.

I really get a feeling you are just blinded by bias.

[Deleted]

It is, but we have no way of knowing if the dead person asked the police to identify themselves...

So what you're saying is that we don't know yet if the Cops lied to the victim before he opened the door.

[tiporispit]

I was talking in general terms, not specifically based on Florida law, but if you want to limit the scope of the discussion to merely Florida, that's fine, we'll go there.

784.011 Assault.

(1) An "assault" is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.

784.021 Aggravated assault.
(1) An "aggravated assault" is an assault:

(a) With a deadly weapon without intent to kill; or

(b) With an intent to commit a felony.


He was holding a weapon, proving inherent ability. He pointed it at the police, a felony. What part about this is so hard for you to understand? Not surprised you're looking for an out to break off the debate, you're wrong and you know it.

This statute requires 2 parts. Intent and unlawful threat. If he felt his life or property were in danger, the aggravated assault would not be unlawful. Aggravated assault describes the action. A court determines if that action was criminal or not through circumstance and evidence. Again, you have not proven he had the intent to actually fire his weapon, and that law does not define the mere pointing of a weapon as criminal intent. In fact, as I already stated, it specifically adds the provision for "without intent to kill" which means the legislature intentionally recognized aggravated assault has extenuating circumstances to be determined on a case by case basis.We don't know if he intended to fire, or was just asserting his F.S.S. given right to protect his life and domicile from unknown intruders. Why you highlighted "intent to commit a felony" is perplexing, since you still having proven his intent, or unlawful use.

[Tinykong]

It's lawfull for citizens to use weapons for self defense...

So any time a cop comes to my house, I have a right to pull a weapon, and if they pull theirs, I can shoot and kill them in self defense? Give me a break.

[Purlina]

So any time a cop comes to my house, I have a right to pull a weapon, and if they pull theirs, I can shoot and kill them in self defense? Give me a break.

If you don't know they are cops and they have weapons? Yes...

[Lockon Stratos]

So any time a cop comes to my house, I have a right to pull a weapon, and if they pull theirs, I can shoot and kill them in self defense? Give me a break.

If they failed to announce themselves as police officers, and they are in plain clothes (very common these days), assuming you don't get killed by the other cops, you'd most likely wouldn't even go to trial for killing what you thought was an intruder. It's the stand your ground law, you felt threatened, you had nowhere to run because you were in your home, so you used your weapon for self defense.

[tiporispit]

If you point a gun at someone you intend to use it, you can not use it in self defence without first identifying what it is you are defending yourself against.

Patently false. Florida State Statute 784.021(1)a. The law recognizes citizens do not always intend to use the weapon. Please state the Florida State Statute that requires a citizen to identify they are acting in self-defense.

[Purlina]

So what you're saying is that we don't know yet if the Cops lied to the victim before he opened the door.

We don't know what the cops said to the victim at all. As we only have 1 side of the story.

[TheSerialSniper]

From my point a view some people knock my door at 1.30am one of two things happen if i owned a gun.

A. Its 1.30am i dont answer my door to anybody.
B. I would damn well answer my door with gun ready at that time.

Hell im not even american but 1.30 in the morning?! Who the hell knocks at that time? Unfortunate set of circumstances. I could argue how both sides are wrong but sadly it wont matter guy is dead sadly. May he rest in peace.

It sucks, but the kid that died was "dead right". Police should know how the average person would react to knocking on their door at 130am, there is no reason for what happened.

[Tinykong]

This statute requires 2 parts. Intent and unlawful threat. If he felt his life or property were in danger, the aggravated assault would not be unlawful. Aggravated assault describes the action. A court determines if that action was criminal or not through circumstance and evidence. Again, you have not proven he had the intent to actually fire his weapon, and that law does not define the mere pointing of a weapon as criminal intent. In fact, as I already stated, it specifically adds the provision for "without intent to kill" which means the legislature intentionally recognized aggravated assault has extenuating circumstances to be determined on a case by case basis.We don't know if he intended to fire, or was just asserting his F.S.S. given right to protect his life and domicile from unknown intruders. Why you highlighted "intent to commit a felony" is perplexing, since you still having proven his intent, or unlawful use.

They weren't unknown intruders, it's uniformed police standing outside his apartment with clearly identified SHERRIF labels on their vests. They were not inside his home, they fired through the door and door opening after he pointed the weapon out at them through it.

Based on the information thus far, his use was unlawful (aiming a gun at uniformed police knocking on your door is about as unlawful as it gets) and I don't think it's a stretch to say that someone who aims a gun at a person intends to do them bodily harm.

That is the purpose of a gun; to injure or kill.

[Aceshigh]

that actually, is exactly why you open your door, in middle of the night, with a gun drawn.
not to SHOOT it, but for scare tactics and so you can get a description to give to the cops.

call the cops in either scenario "hey someone was at my door banging it at 1am, uhh...description...sorry can't help you there"
or
"some guy who looks like a crack head was pounding on my door, he had a red jersey, redsocks baseball cap, a rose tatoo on his upper arm, and a scare on his upper like on the left side"

which call to the cops is more likely to result in an arrest?
you get a burglar off the streets you are doing a service to the next family a neighborhood down that he would of robbed.
you open the door with a gun drawn for a variety of reasons, to USE it, as a last resort in case they have a weapon pointed at you.

pointing a gun is the same as using it?
i guess holding a jug of bleach is the same as chugging it, or any sharp instrument being pointed at someone is the same as murder....though surgeons would definitely disagree,
owning a gun is a life saving precaution, not a "i'm going to murder the first person that does <blank> to me"

especially at night, i respect him opening his door with a weapon drawn.
i really can't see how people are saying this guy was in the wrong, and the cops were in the right...
this guy was definitely in the right, the cops (if they are telling the truth) are also in the right however....

this is just a terrible situation.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You open your door with a fucking gun drawn, you need to understand the consequences of that action might hold; it's simply not smart regardless of who is on the other side of that door. The argument of "which one is more likely to result in an arrest is not the point, you're afraid for your life NOT afraid of whether or not there will be an arrest made.
If people have the right to own guns for "safety" and they exercise that right then fine (completely fucking insane way to generate safety, but that's another thing on its own) have a gun for safety. I don't see how opening your door with a gun drawn is making you any safer than waiting inside your apartment with it drawn in case someone ACTUALLY THREATENS YOU (notice that's in caps for a reason), possibly after you've gone and called for help.

And "you get a burglar off the streets you are doing a service to the next family a neighborhood down that he would of robbed." makes me want to ignore every single thing you say. Take someones life because they might do something wrong in the future.


With attitudes like this I can start to understand why Chicago, population of about 3 million, had 228 homicides as of June 11 this year http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-chicago.html (and something like 1200 shootings but I can't find that link) whereas Canada as a whole with a population of about 10x at 33 million had 554 homicides in 2010 (quick google search, most current I found. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...gal12a-eng.htm

[Tinykong]

If you don't know they are cops and they have weapons? Yes...

LOL

This is why gun laws are being slowly erroded, people believe that they can own a gun and do whatever they want to with it.

Uniformed police come to your house and knock on the door, you better not pull a gun on them, or you will be dead just like this guy.

[Purlina]

Because Police announce, criminal starts opening fire and hit a bystander, or a cop, or a hostage. And since when isn't a police officers safety important.

I really get a feeling you are just blinded by bias.

Everyone is biased to some degree. To deny that is to deny human nature....

Are you saying your not biased?

[zerocarbs]

When you live in a society with secret police, events like this are bound to happen.

[Aceshigh]

That is the purpose of a gun; to injure or kill.

Just wait till you get people coming in here telling you a gun is used to scare people, not kill them!