MOP Holy reforging

[mcbubble]

Does anyone have any math behind MOP reforging for a holy paladin?
I've been told (in game) and recently tried:
Spirit -> Mastery -> Haste -> Crit

I'm not sure where Int would fall into this since it's where we derive our spellpower.
Basically I'm using the pvp gear and gemming all spirit atm.
If the gear has haste, I add mastery.
If it has mastery, I leave it.
If it has crit, I add mastery.
Basically I'm trying to maximize mastery and spirit with Haste and Crit being nice to haves.

As a sidenote, I'll be honest, I miss reforging haste.
It almost seems like we have to wait between casts and hope for our free spells with Eternal Flame or Light of Dawn.
Anywho - does anyone have any reference or opinion as to how we should reforge?

[Gamdwelf]

Depends on what you are going to do with your holy paladin.

I know I am going to reforge out of as much spirit just to have some regen, attempt to have 0 mastery, and all of the rest is going to be in haste/crit.

[mcbubble]

Can't believe the lack of comments here...

Bumping your own thread for no other reason than to bump it isn't permitted. - Malthanis

[Kerfax]

I don't have any math behind this, but I assume that for straight throughput its going to continue to be Spirit>Haste>Crit>=Mastery. (Not sure on whether crit is actually better than Mastery for straight throughput).

I can tell you that because it will be the beginning of the expansion, I will be gearing towards being as mana efficient as possible. My reforgings will be Spirit>Mastery>Haste>Crit. I may even bump crit up if Glyph of Illumination proves to be worth it.

Depending on Regen, it may be worth it to stick with what you are doing and gem spirit. Since Int no longer increases mana pool, and in effect regen, I think that early in the expansion it may be worth it to go straight spirit.

These are all my opinions though. I don't have math to support this as I'm not a theorycrafter.

[Tomana]

As haste is not that bad in MOP, I think that Spirit is da king and mastery is 2nd.
We'll probably need some haste if Eternal Flame will be used (it prolly will) to hit breakpoints and stuff, however.

So yes, it's about right

[Vayra]

Int will still be a high high high priority. Since we cannot reforge for it, we must gem for it. We probably won't be doing PURE int gems, but it still still be needed to keep our spell power (along with pvp power which affects heals) up at a decent level. Going 100% pure spirit is.. ehh... Lets just say having full mana while your partners are dead on the ground doesn't help..

[Tomana]

Int will still be a high high high priority. Since we cannot reforge for it, we must gem for it. We probably won't be doing PURE int gems, but it still still be needed to keep our spell power (along with pvp power which affects heals) up at a decent level. Going 100% pure spirit is.. ehh... Lets just say having full mana while your partners are dead on the ground doesn't help..

Have you tested this on beta? (it is a simple question )

[Kerfax]

Int will still be a high high high priority. Since we cannot reforge for it, we must gem for it. We probably won't be doing PURE int gems, but it still still be needed to keep our spell power (along with pvp power which affects heals) up at a decent level. Going 100% pure spirit is.. ehh... Lets just say having full mana while your partners are dead on the ground doesn't help..

There will need to be a balance between Spirit and Int gemming, but I don't think it will be any one way. What some people don't seem to understand is that if at any point in a fight you can't cast a heal because of mana, Spirit becomes a throughput stat. I'd much rather have mana for an entire encounter than slightly stronger heals for half of a boss fight.

[Vayra]

Have you tested this on beta? (it is a simple question )

Tested that having full mana and dead partners is a bad thing? You can test that on live right now if you want...

There will need to be a balance between Spirit and Int gemming, but I don't think it will be any one way. What some people don't seem to understand is that if at any point in a fight you can't cast a heal because of mana, Spirit becomes a throughput stat. I'd much rather have mana for an entire encounter than slightly stronger heals for half of a boss fight.

Spirit is 100% NOT a throughput stat, and never ever ever EVER will be. You stack it till YOU are comfortable with YOUR mana regen. Anything past that is wasted stats. Obviously at the beginning of a tier/season more spirit will need to be reforged/gemmed than later on in the expansion; but you still need a balance of spirit int and your other secondary stats.

[Dubalicious]

Tested that having full mana and dead partners is a bad thing? You can test that on live right now if you want...



Spirit is 100% NOT a throughput stat, and never ever ever EVER will be. You stack it till YOU are comfortable with YOUR mana regen. Anything past that is wasted stats. Obviously at the beginning of a tier/season more spirit will need to be reforged/gemmed than later on in the expansion; but you still need a balance of spirit int and your other secondary stats.

This is quite a bit of misleading information. Spirit is a throughput stat RIGHT NOW on live because it allows you to cast more spells. It may be in a "roundabout" way, but it is absolutely a throughput stat. Not in the normal sense that it increases the power of your heals, but rather in that it allows you to cast MORE heals or more powerful heals (upgrading from HL > DL on every cast is made possible through additional spirit)

Have you been playing on beta? Even with a full spirit build you wouldn't be spending much time at full mana if you're healing anything remotely difficult.

[Kerfax]

Spirit is 100% NOT a throughput stat, and never ever ever EVER will be. You stack it till YOU are comfortable with YOUR mana regen. Anything past that is wasted stats. Obviously at the beginning of a tier/season more spirit will need to be reforged/gemmed than later on in the expansion; but you still need a balance of spirit int and your other secondary stats.

If you read my post more carefully, I said that the moment you don't have mana to cast a heal it becomes a throughput stat as well as a regen stat.
I also stated that there needs to be a balance, but that will depend on the content someone is doing (Heroic, reg, LFR, or 5 mans) as well as how they feel comfortable healing.

[Kaytemoss]

I just put together a MoP model this afternoon to try and put some numbers on the table...
Haven't been able to test my model yet on beta and it's my first attempt at theorycrafting so handle those results with care

Let's take a basic set of stats for our paladin. He sits at roughly 4.1k Spirit and 1.9k Haste


I've modeled a fairly relaxed rotation, consisting on casting HS on CD, keeping a 3HP EF on tank and casting Holy Lights in between...
With those stats, you should be able to heal for 120 seconds before going OOM, with a total healing done (that's the red number in the lower right of the table) of 2.51 million


Let's now add some Haste into the mix, +1500 haste rating to be exact.
This gives me a to a total healing done of 2.46 million over a 114 seconds period.


Doing the exact same thing with +1500 spirit will give you a total of 2.70 million healing done (250k more than with the haste reforge) over a 129 seconds period


The numbers might be a bit off but this definitely shows that spirit IS a throughput stat, not in terms of HPS of course but in terms of total healing done over the course of a fight.

In terms of pure HPS though, my model still shows haste being king with that rotation but mana limitations will clearly drive everyone towards spirit at the start... (the graph below shows the HPS increase for that rotation when you add some of the different stats)

[Tomana]

Tested that having full mana and dead partners is a bad thing? You can test that on live right now if you want...

What you should test on beta is how fast the mana bar goes down. That's the point. In my current beta gear (scaled to ilvl 440 in heroics) I can't even spam HL too much (spam being defined as casting stuff back to back without looking).

Spirit is 100% NOT a throughput stat, and never ever ever EVER will be. You stack it till YOU are comfortable with YOUR mana regen.

And in the current state, it means reforging to spirit and add a bunch of spirit gems (don't forget that spirit has 2x more value on gems than int on beta).

---------- Post added 2012-08-03 at 10:50 AM ----------

I just put together a MoP model this afternoon to try and put some numbers on the table...
Haven't been able to test my model yet on beta and it's my first attempt at theorycrafting so handle those results with care

Very nice, thanks!

Doing the exact same thing with +1500 spirit will give you a total of 2.70 million healing done (250k more than with the haste reforge) over a 29 seconds period

Typo? You meant 129 perhaps?

In any case, I can confirm that it sounds about right (at least in 5-mans). Currently, I have to be extremely careful with mana, maybe even more so than in early Cata. Granted, gear is currently scaled down to 440 but still...

[ducklino]

Depends if you're going to pick Eternal Flame or Sacred shield.
Sacred Shield only scales with Haste, Eternal Flame scales with everything.

[Quarts]

Depends if you're going to pick Eternal Flame or Sacred shield.
Sacred Shield only scales with Haste, Eternal Flame scales with everything.

Wait, Sacred Shield is scaling with haste? In what way? Did you mean intellect/spell power?

[Deleted]

From my testing and looking at logs.

Spirit > mastery > Haste > crit.

I've gemed everything int, purple as int+spirit and orange as int+mastery

Regen hasn't been too big of a problem currently - remember to melee the boss.

But Mastery is massive. Its my top healing spell on all logs easily and thats the reason to boost it even more, we are the new bubble bots imho.

[ducklino]

Wait, Sacred Shield is scaling with haste? In what way? Did you mean intellect/spell power?

It works with has in the same way as Dots and Hots.
Eternal Flame works in the same way too; but can also crit and is affected by mastery(not sure about this last one).

[Vayra]

But Mastery is massive. Its my top healing spell on all logs easily and thats the reason to boost it even more, we are the new bubble bots imho.

Why is mastery so potent if i might ask? Was it buffed?

[Blash]

I agree with Dappy.

Why is mastery so potent if i might ask? Was it buffed?

Mastery was in fact buffed back in 4.2 with increased bubble duration, stacking amounts and duration refresh thus better usage.

First of all, mastery is mana-neutral, this is a huge advantage when mana matters. Mastery is also better than haste if you consider 1% haste = 1% healing and 100% mastery usage even with haste requiring less points to achieve +1%. Haste has side effects that mastery has not: more casts = more procs chance, but Daybreak is gone and Infusion of Light depends on shock CD with is not reduced by haste. You still gain some holy power with more Tower of Radiance procs (but it procs only from expensive spells, flash & divine light) and a bit more Crusader Strikes.

Another "buff" to mastery is the new Holy Radiance. Now, mastery procs from every single spell casted by the paladin: Holy Radiance is no longer a HoT and procs mastery fully, Eternal Flame despite being a HoT procs mastery on each tick. About the 90 talents: Holy Prism direct heal (casted on a friendly target) also procs mastery (I don't know about indirect healing but I think it doesn't), Light's Hammer doesn't proc mastery at all and Execution Sentence procs it every tick.

For me:

Spirit > Mastery > Haste > Crit

At least until mana becomes a non-issue. At this time, it's more than possible that the additional holy power gain from haste will yield better results.

[Vayra]

I agree with Dappy.



Mastery was in fact buffed back in 4.2 with increased bubble duration, stacking amounts and duration refresh thus better usage.

First of all, mastery is mana-neutral, this is a huge advantage when mana matters. Mastery is also better than haste if you consider 1% haste = 1% healing and 100% mastery usage even with haste requiring less points to achieve +1%. Haste has side effects that mastery has not: more casts = more procs chance, but Daybreak is gone and Infusion of Light depends on shock CD with is not reduced by haste. You still gain some holy power with more Tower of Radiance procs (but it procs only from expensive spells, flash & divine light) and a bit more Crusader Strikes.

Another "buff" to mastery is the new Holy Radiance. Now, mastery procs from every single spell casted by the paladin: Holy Radiance is no longer a HoT and procs mastery fully, Eternal Flame despite being a HoT procs mastery on each tick. About the 90 talents: Holy Prism direct heal (casted on a friendly target) also procs mastery (I don't know about indirect healing but I think it doesn't), Light's Hammer doesn't proc mastery at all and Execution Sentence procs it every tick.

For me:

Spirit > Mastery > Haste > Crit

At least until mana becomes a non-issue. At this time, it's more than possible that the additional holy power gain from haste will yield better results.

Thanks for the fast reply! This all looks very interesting =) Looking forward to see how the numbers pan out at 90 for pvp haha