[MOP] What do you think about the new and (I hope so.) better Enhancement Shaman?

[Teriz]

This spec feels very similar to how it felt in Cataclysm. It's the same ship, it just has an additional rudder.

That isn't to say that the spec is bad. It's just that the spec doesn't really feel like it's evolved much from its Cataclysm iteration. Some can view this as a good thing or a bad thing.

[Endus]

Oh wow... 50% nerf.

It isn't really a 50% nerf. Windfury still provides three additional attacks with your weapons, which is the scaling portion of the damage. It's a nerf, but the bonus AP isn't the biggest part of Windfury.

[Omanley]

Oh wow... 50% nerf.

Didn't they also additionally buff FT? I dont get it...

[RagequitTheShaman]

From what I've read on patch notes, I feel that some of the changes that Enhance has been begging for have been answered, and some haven't. Overall I feel like we will be good, but we'll still be the spec that no one ever considers as a real spec.

[Teriz]

From what I've read on patch notes, I feel that some of the changes that Enhance has been begging for have been answered, and some haven't. Overall I feel like we will be good, but we'll still be the spec that no one ever considers as a real spec.

Interestingly, Enhancement has been the model of hybrid melee specs for a long time. It's really amazing when you play a Retribution Paladin, WW Monk, or a Frost DK and then go back to an Enhancement Shaman. It's like going from a 2012 Lexus ES to a 2000 Toyota Camry.

[Delanath]

I haven't player a monk yet, at least not seriously, but I have played frost and ret. I'd take shaman mechanics over those two any day. I mean, for frost, you have to be in unholy presence ...

[Radux]

Interestingly, Enhancement has been the model of hybrid melee specs for a long time. It's really amazing when you play a Retribution Paladin, WW Monk, or a Frost DK and then go back to an Enhancement Shaman. It's like going from a 2012 Lexus ES to a 2000 Toyota Camry.

Different players feel differently about different specs.

Personally I hate the way DK's play (all of them) because the Rune system feels awkward and crappy to me.

[Teriz]

Different players feel differently about different specs.

Personally I hate the way DK's play (all of them) because the Rune system feels awkward and crappy to me.

I personally hate the way they play as well, which is why I stuck with Enhancement. However I still acknowledge that the DK system, and the MoP Ret system is quite a bit more advanced than Enhancement's. It's clear that the former two borrowed a lot of Enhance's mechanics and evolved them.

Fun factor is completely subjective. Some people prefer to drive an old Camry, some prefer to drive a new Lexus.

[Radux]

Fun factor is completely subjective. Some people prefer to drive an old Camry, some prefer to drive a new Lexus.

You're still purposefully stacking the deck against Shaman, though, in your example.

Obviously if you had the choice between a 5 year old Camry vs. a Brand new Luxury car, everyone's going to choose the latter.
There are DK mechanics that act just like other classes, and we have mechanics that could be viewed (subjectively) as better than theirs.

Different classes are different. Unless you can come up with an example of a mechanic that another class has that is better than every single Shaman mechanic in every way, there's basically no way you can claim that all of our stuff is old and outdated (thus crappy) and everyone else has new better stuff.

[Endus]

Personally I hate the way DK's play (all of them) because the Rune system feels awkward and crappy to me.

I've played pretty much every spec to 85; the only ones I haven't are Hunters (leveling one now, hoping to hit 85 before MoP but not rushing because I'd like to run the last stretch with the new systems) and priests.

I've got a DK (actually, two, because I had one on my old server and another on my new server that I just hit 85 on last week). I really, really don't enjoy my DK. Frost is better than Unholy, but both are meh. That's absolutely subjective, and I'm not saying DKs are mechanically "bad". The only reason I rolled one the second time around was because I needed new toons for taking advantage of the market. With a new server, this gave me the opportunity to start from scratch, other than my main which I paid for a transfer on, so my first alt was an Druid for farming (not always a great return for time investment, but it will be for the MoP launch, and gives me something to do while watching TV or a movie at my PC), and my second was the DK, chosen pretty much entirely because I got to skip levels 1-55.

I'm playing a Shaman because it's still the class I enjoy the most. I'm enjoying my Hunter though I'm still at the "spam Arcane Shot until things die" stage of leveling, and I'm planning to roll a Monk with MoP as my main raiding alt (mostly because the healing mechanics look interesting to me in ways Holy Paladins and Resto Druids don't, and there's a tank spec to round out my role options between that and my Shaman). I really hate playing Mages, but the Warlock changes look interesting too, and that'll probably be the next character after all that.

Long story short; I've played every other melee spec in the game. I prefer Enhancement's flow to pretty much all the others. In general, I don't enjoy Melee as a role, because of the gaps all melee have driving me nuts not having anything to do, but if I were to play a melee, I'd likely be playing my Enhancement Shaman.


A lot of Shaman mechanics haven't changed because they don't NEED to change. It still works just fine. Just because they're older doesn't mean they're mechanically "worse" or behind. I would argue it's not the difference between a 2012 Lexus and a 2000 Camry, it's more like the difference between the Lexus and a '69 Mustang. The Mustang's older, but it's been kept tuned up, and it still runs fine and is an amazing vehicle. Does it likely have an iPod port in the radio? No. But who cares? Listen to that baby purr.

[Teriz]

You're still purposefully stacking the deck against Shaman, though, in your example.

Obviously if you had the choice between a 5 year old Camry vs. a Brand new Luxury car, everyone's going to choose the latter.
There are DK mechanics that act just like other classes, and we have mechanics that could be viewed (subjectively) as better than theirs.

Different classes are different. Unless you can come up with an example of a mechanic that another class has that is better than every single Shaman mechanic in every way, there's basically no way you can claim that all of our stuff is old and outdated (thus crappy) and everyone else has new better stuff.

I would say that its mainly their resources and procs that gives the DK (Runic Power) and the Paladin (Holy Power) quite a bit more flexibility than the Enhancement system.

I was a bit unfair with the car comparison though, so I retract those statements.

A lot of Shaman mechanics haven't changed because they don't NEED to change. It still works just fine. Just because they're older doesn't mean they're mechanically "worse" or behind. I would argue it's not the difference between a 2012 Lexus and a 2000 Camry, it's more like the difference between the Lexus and a '69 Mustang. The Mustang's older, but it's been kept tuned up, and it still runs fine and is an amazing vehicle. Does it likely have an iPod port in the radio? No. But who cares? Listen to that baby purr.

That's more of what I was getting at. The Enhancement system is old, but it's still functional. And as Radux showed, new doesn't always mean more fun. I just wish that some of the advancements seen in DKs and Paladins (and now Monks) could trickle into Enhancement's design. Maelstrom Weapon would be a great starting point.

[Deleted]

It's a nerf, but the bonus AP isn't the biggest part of Windfury.

Pfft... I know that.

[nazrakin]

I would say that its mainly their resources and procs that gives the DK (Runic Power) and the Paladin (Holy Power) quite a bit more flexibility than the Enhancement system.

I was a bit unfair with the car comparison though, so I retract those statements.

That's more of what I was getting at. The Enhancement system is old, but it's still functional. And as Radux showed, new doesn't always mean more fun. I just wish that some of the advancements seen in DKs and Paladins (and now Monks) could trickle into Enhancement's design. Maelstrom Weapon would be a great starting point.

I wouldn't say that any of these are more advanced versions of what Enhance has -- they are more like evolved Combo points. While you could cite some similarity between MW and combo points, they are not the same thing or for the same purpose. Combo points/runes/HP are all designed to restrict ability use. MW doesn't restrict anything, it just costs more time/mana to cast the spells. I actually find tht to be much more flexible than a system that just locks me out of some abilities entirely.

I enjoy that enhancement's system is a bit more unique.

[Teriz]

I wouldn't say that any of these are more advanced versions of what Enhance has -- they are more like evolved Combo points. While you could cite some similarity between MW and combo points, they are not the same thing or for the same purpose. Combo points/runes/HP are all designed to restrict ability use. MW doesn't restrict anything, it just costs more time/mana to cast the spells. I actually find tht to be much more flexible than a system that just locks me out of some abilities entirely.

I enjoy that enhancement's system is a bit more unique.

Actually they are. Let me give you some examples.

The Rune system is very similar to the Enhancement system in that all of its abilities are CD based. Where it differs is that you get two runes per "element". So if an ability costs 1 frost rune, you can cast it twice before experiencing lockout. For example, a DK can cast Icy touch twice and then he's locked out of Icy touch until his Runes refresh themselves. I'm pretty sure the Rune CD is 10 seconds, which is again very similar to our CDs with Stormstrike, Unleash Weapon, and Lava Lash.

Here's where the DK system is more flexible; There are abilities, talents, and passives that can refresh the depleted runes, or increase their regeneration rate. Furthermore, there are other abilities that allow you to bypass the Rune cost. Just to clarify, it would be like auto attacks giving Enhance Shaman the chance to cast Stormstrike or Lava Lash twice in a row before the CD takes effect, or Maelstrom Procs reducing or Stormstrike CD. So while DKs also experience ability lockouts, they have a deeper system that allows them to better handle those lockouts than Enhance does. So an extremely skilled Death Knight can weave himself out of getting locked out of his abilities far better than a Shaman can.

That's not even getting into the resource side of things where Runic Power allows DKs to burn through lockout phases.

[nazrakin]

Actually they are. Let me give you some examples.

The Rune system is very similar to the Enhancement system in that all of its abilities are CD based. Where it differs is that you get two runes per "element". So if an ability costs 1 frost rune, you can cast it twice before experiencing lockout. For example, a DK can cast Icy touch twice and then he's locked out of Icy touch until his Runes refresh themselves. I'm pretty sure the Rune CD is 10 seconds, which is again very similar to our CDs with Stormstrike, Unleash Weapon, and Lava Lash.

Here's where the DK system is more flexible; There are abilities, talents, and passives that can refresh the depleted runes, or increase their regeneration rate. Furthermore, there are other abilities that allow you to bypass the Rune cost. Just to clarify, it would be like auto attacks giving Enhance Shaman the chance to cast Stormstrike or Lava Lash twice in a row before the CD takes effect, or Maelstrom Procs reducing or Stormastrike CD. So while DKs also experience ability lockouts, they have a deeper system that allows them to better handle those lockouts than Enhance does. So an extremely skilled Death Knight can weave himself out of getting locked out of his abilities far better than a Shaman can.

That's not even getting into the resource side of things where Runic Power allows DKs to burn through lockout phases.

Again, you can point to some similarity, but the systems are vastly different in practice. DKs use a variable system where pretty much every ability they have is tied into another. Some abilities cost 2 runes, some just 1, some rune costs are more prevalent than others, ect. If you use Icy touch twice, you cant use any of the 5 or 6 spells that require the ice rune -- unless you get a proc or burn a CD. It would be like dropping Searing Totem and having LL, Earthshock, Stormstrike also put on CD. Its a system that requires a lot more micro management, but that doesn't make it better or more fun.

Enh is a more predictable but reliable system where you use more skills in a given sequence. I'd love a change to make haste lower our ability CDs, but I'm not at all interested in having MW converted into a rune/holy power type system.

[Nitwit]

Didn't they also additionally buff FT? I dont get it...

Flametongue was nerfed by 20%+

[Sforza]

PvP wise, how do we deal with snares and roots in mop?

[Teriz]

Again, you can point to some similarity, but the systems are vastly different in practice. DKs use a variable system where pretty much every ability they have is tied into another. Some abilities cost 2 runes, some just 1, some rune costs are more prevalent than others, ect.

Of course they're vastly different in practice. My point was that the DK system has more flexibility because it allows the user to better control the speed at which an ability comes off of cooldown, and because of the Runic power resource.

If you use Icy touch twice, you cant use any of the 5 or 6 spells that require the ice rune -- unless you get a proc or burn a CD. It would be like dropping Searing Totem and having LL, Earthshock, Stormstrike also put on CD.

That's exactly what our Shock system does.

Enh is a more predictable but reliable system where you use more skills in a given sequence. I'd love a change to make haste lower our ability CDs, but I'm not at all interested in having MW converted into a rune/holy power type system.

No one is advocating that. I'm simply pointing out how the DK system is more flexible and more advanced than the Enhancement system.

---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 05:30 AM ----------

PvP wise, how do we deal with snares and roots in mop?

Spirit Walk, Windwalk Totem, Glyphed Ghost Wolf.

[Manu9]

We're back to the resources thing I see - I think the main reason most people prefer (admire) the other systems, is because it is not so rigid - I think if we would have gotten a SoB type of passive we'd be quite so close to ret, their HoPo is basically our SF.

It would also be much more fun, since it will change how we play depending on how much haste we have, end of expansion won't be the same as the beginning. And on top of that we would ( in a perfect world ) have to ways to choose from; Hard hitting -> Mastery, Fast(er) paced -> Haste, it won't happen since MoP is right around the corner, but one can dream.

[Teriz]

We're back to the resources thing I see - I think the main reason most people prefer (admire) the other systems, is because it is not so rigid - I think if we would have gotten a SoB type of passive we'd be quite so close to ret, their HoPo is basically our SF.

It would also be much more fun, since it will change how we play depending on how much haste we have, end of expansion won't be the same as the beginning. And on top of that we would ( in a perfect world ) have to ways to choose from; Hard hitting -> Mastery, Fast(er) paced -> Haste, it won't happen since MoP is right around the corner, but one can dream.

Well its not just the resources, its the procs as well.

Enhancement procs have to ramp up for max benefit, whereas the Ret and DK system grants instant procs and leave the ramp up abilities to their resource system.

Examples; Ret Paladin: Art of War and Divine Purpose (talent)
DK Frost: Rime and Killing Machine