If even half of the people in this thread genuinely held the opinions they've chosen to share, that's a very worrying indictment of where we're societally headed.
There is absolutely no legitimate reason for excluding girls. Not one. "They cause drama" highlights a problem with management, not a problem with recruiting girls. Equally, there is no legitimate reason for excluding people of different colour, ethnicity, age or sexual proclivity.
I literally stunned that there are some people that think this is somehow okay.
We had a girl in our core, she was very good at healing.
Good points:
*General. Female speaking is kinda relaxing when you wipe, some toned up jokes, etc.
*Our raider. Very good at healing.
Bad points:
*General. Some people get distracted when a girl talks.
*Our rider. Fluctuating humor. Sometimes she was sleepy, sad or angry and whine about everything, turning "good points" to trash.
*Our rider. She went out frecuently and didnt get in time for riding. It is ok, I like the going-out aspect, but as raider, failing at that isnt good.
*Our rider. She went out of the country a full month (holydays). Too much for a raider.
How we "broke"?. When she returned from his holydays, we accidentally gave Maw to one of our healers (core), whe whined about, quit TS and /gquit. We said it was a confusion, but she was in a bad mood. Things are good now, but its main is on another guild.
That (bolded part) is a very legitimate reason to exclude females from a raiding guild. No, of course that doesn't happen all the time, or in every guild. But when you put 24 males, a good chunk of them not having any other real interaction with the opposite gender, with 1 female in the raid, it's a ticking time bomb. I'm literally stunned that you can't see how that could go wrong for the guild.
I think you need to change the bias of this sentence a bit. It is not the presence of women that causes problems. It is the interaction between men and women - an interaction that is different between just men, or just women, that causes problems. That dynamic can easily cause potential problems, and it could be the fault of any party, male, female, or even both.
While it is understandable that a serious progression group would like to eliminate the possibility of these kinds of issues cropping up in their group, the mere fact that it is a problem for them indicates that the problem most likely stems from a general inability of the boys in that group to deal with interacting with women.
During WotLK I played in a really awesome 25 man (erm, make the person )raid community. There were quite a few women in that group - normally 4-5 per raid. They performed just as well on aggregate as the guys in the group, and we never had any issues with bad male/female interactions.
In our current 10 person setup we have 4 ladies who fill spots in the raid lineup. They make up our core tanking team and probably our top dps. I personally hope that they feel comfortable raiding with the rest of us guys, and if there were any issues of inappropriate behaviour leading to tension in the raid group, I would make sure to address it properly with whomever is the root cause - and not just kick the women out to solve the problem.
That being said, I have landed up in pugs before with complete strangers and heard over vent how some guys go completely bonkers as soon as they hear a female voice on the other end. I have also seen how some women like to use the power they hold over some guys. But ultimately in any kind of adult environment, assuming someone is the stereotype is not only unfair, but pretty daft in the long run.
---------- Post added 2012-08-16 at 03:38 PM ----------
I am not sure I would label that as a "legitimate reason" so much as an easy cop-out.
Honestly, if some of those 24 males in the group can't handle themselves properly in the presence of a female, I don't see how that justifies punishing the female. A much more fair response is to address the few males who are the problem. And let's face it, if there is one female and 24 males in a group, odds are about 96% that the problem will originate from a male.
I'm not gonna say this about everyone but...There are two female raiders in my guild, both DPS. And they are consistently on the bottom of DPS charts. Warrior and Unholy DK both BiS (or very close too) as well.
And to be honest I've co-tanked some LFRs (on some DK alt) and I've had a female tank once that was just horrible. She never taunted when I needed it and would randomly taunt when she shouldn't have, so she ended up picking up more stacks of a boss debuff than she should have, and at the end of each fight she'd always be so cheerful and be like "yeah we did it" when I was popping some advils for the headache she was giving me.
I personally don't think a lot of women try to be as competitive as a lot of the male players, and then to go further only some male players are really competetive compared to others. Of course that isn't to say every woman, but I'd definitely say on average it's true.
At the beginning of cata I was in a 10 man raiding guild where the guild master was a 16yr old Canadian girl, while the rest of the raiding team were males ages 18-21. She still to this day is an extremely good player, but the guild fell apart because of all the shit most of the raid gave her all the time (sexual harassment mainly). I've found a more mature guild since.
oke they ask for immatur people yet the gm is immature as hell.
no apply if you don't have a cellphone? i mean come on. unless your going for world first. my gm will never have my phone number. skype/email is fine. but phone no.
but if you are a world first boss raider/guild you are going to raid more then 12 hours a week. 12 hours a week is like cesual guild. the guild i'm in now raids like 10 hours a week. 2x 5 hours. and no authenticator. i mean what does my gm care if i get hacket. as long as i have no acces to the gb its fine for him.
and ofc no female. that is most immature rule.
---------- Post added 2012-08-16 at 02:05 PM ----------
yep me. my gm will never get my cellphone. i know when to show up. and if i'm not there you can call me all they long but i won't pick up.
The two lowest DPS in my guild's raids are blokes. They cannot grasp the concept of efficient movement and maintaining decent DPS. Don't even get me started on target switching.
And I have tanked on my alt with some terrible guys who couldn't find their taunt or cooldown buttons with a map and a step-by-step guide. Male healers usually perform worse than me.
Based on the logic I see in this here thread, that must mean male players on average are crap, right?
Maybe I should make a thread about it >.>
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Almost my entire raid group is female. Only one of them gets me distracted sometimes though (I've taken a few dirt-naps). And really, that's my fault for getting distracted, not hers for being there. We're not HC, just relaxed and currently learning the heroic fights at our own leisurely pace.
As for your 'why,' I doubt there is a reasonable answer. Not against blatant discrimination. If it were my HC guild I would take both men and women and weed the group of any problems that crop up on a case-by-case basis. By eliminating people on the grounds of stereotypes you're only diminishing your raid group's potential.
TLDR; Their loss.
Stabby stab stab.
Avatar courtesy of Kelly Aarons of woweh.com
I have never met any good guild declining a player because its a female. I guess you talk about 2/8 hc acting pro with 30% ds nerf
I knew what you meant, but fixed it for the sake of the quotation block just the same. I can't sall "all HC guilds" (or even just guilds in general) avoid or do not allow female players. Some may openly invite them, some may not. However, the overwhelming reason cited for not inviting them is the potential for "favoritism/hormone-rage" that many guys will inevitably end up showing to female players - the whole twisted fantasy of "here's your gear, now can I get your phone number?" deal.
I have no issues with allowing females into a guild, provided it doesn't turn into madness similar to the above. If that happens, everyone involved gets the boot on the skin.
#FlightIsImportant
The best guild I have EVER been in was GM'd by a woman.
She was the best GM, eeeeeeeeevvvvvvererrererr.
So shut ya face! =)
If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.
It's not legitimate. At all. Ever. Your problem is 24 immature, undeveloped children that can't accept that girls are real people, too. Blaming someone for being female (or black, or Islamic, or gay) is the worst kind of attribution you can find.
It's blatant bigotry in its ugliest form.