Windwalker Improvement Thread

[Teriz]

Cleave is to hit more than more target dealing more spread out damage than you can if you single target.

Actually it's just a type of AoE. Again, Monks have plenty of AoE abilities. I'm just not seeing why have a cleave is necessary when you have something like SCK that hits multiple targets and even generates a resource.

[Zik3l]

Technically no, it is not AoE.

AoE = Area of effect. A cleave is a single target attack that spreads off to something else, and therefore isn't an attack on an area - it is a single target attack that happens to hit something else.

Easiest way to tell a true aoe? Does it require a target? if no, then it's AoE. E.G. SCK, FoK, Blizzard, DND, ETC.

Yes, this means that Multi-shot is technically a cleave.

[Asmalya]

As i said in another thread since ww is the only one of the three speccs without a statue, why not give them one.
One you place on the ground and then it does x% amount of damage to every target a certain amount of yards around your maintarget.
Maybe limit it to x targets..

Something like.

"Does 70% of your damage to 2 target around 10y of your Maintarget. Does not hit the Maintarget hitself"

as a cleave statue

or

"Does 50% of your damage to 5 target around 10y of your Maintarget. Does not hit the Maintarget hitself"

as a more aoe version.

Numbers as usual needs to be tuned but with 30sec cd on statue you can easily switch locations in case of different add spawn points.
It would fit the monk style too.

[Deleted]

I am too very concerned by the dev's forgetting the WW.
The problems have clearly been exposed by the OP : lack of cleave, lack of aoe, lack raid utility; for a monotarget dps not too bad but not too good at all

I think there's a lack of a big cd too, because xuen is a talent and should not be counted as one, imo, and on a massive aoe fight, we won't have xuen, so we won't have any cd !!

Clearly, there's no reason to take a WW in raid.

Here's what i propose ( which is close from other propositions) :

1) Add " Tiger rage brew: 1 chi , 20sec cooldown, instant : Drink a brew makin your 3 next Rising sun kick, tiger palm or Blackout kick to hit 2 more targets around your main target "

Glyph of tiger rage brew : "your tiger rage brew now allows only 1 charge, but the next RSK, TP or BOK will hit all the targets around your main target "

---> this would allow a cleave tool, or an aoe tool depending the glyph's presence ( or not), and depending on what we need on this fight.

2) add: glyph of fist of fury: "your Fof doesn't stun anymore but doesnt share anymore the damages beetween the targets "( but it's still affected by the aoe cap, like every aoe)

3) add " Effigy of the white tiger : 3 min cd, no cost : Put on your feet a white tiger's effigy, which increases all the raid's mastery by XXX for 12sec. Furthermore, the effigy increases all damages you do by 25% during this 12sec "

---> adding a real cd for the monk, AND a raid cooldown

OR : we could have the zen meditation upped for WW, as a heal or protection raid cd. We can have a dps raid cd, or a defensive one, one or the other could fit i think.
( furthermore, a defensive one coudl probably help in pvp where i have doubts about the ww's survivability , compared to other super-melee classes... )

4) Change the t14 bonus for fist of fury : instead of reducing his cooldown, it should allow to move at a 50% reduced speed ( but the animation wouldnt fit i agree) , or allow to use auto attack during the channeling, or make the channeling on 2sec instaed of 4, with closer iterations.

For me a good 4t14 bonus could be " your Bok DOT have 5% chance on each iteration to reset the CD of your RSK and make it chi-free "

Fist of fury is fun, wonderful, we all agree, but needs a little work. Using it requiers too much. And making it one of our 2 bonus is clearly shity.

---------- Post added 2012-08-22 at 08:54 AM ----------

I just forgot to say that, perhaps you were not on the very very early beta in march, but i was, and, at this time, the monks have that cleave abitlity i described

It was the former version of tiger's eye brew, which was exactly what i proposed ( but i renamed it tiger rage, because tieger's eye already esxists^^).
Unless the glyph i added, it was exactly what i wrote.

So i don't see why Blizzard deleted this skill.

At the beginning of the beta, Fof was a cleave ( no sharing damage), and we have the tiger's eye brew as a cleave ability, but in april, they suprresed one and nerfed the other in one patch, screwing all cleave options.

What i mean is that spell already exist in blizzard's data

[Deleted]

Windwalkers are in a bad place but atleast this is being repeated over and over in the WW Monk Beta feedback on the US forums. The problem is that Blizzard just isn't responding to any of the feedback in any way. If the classes are now complete then a lot of potential was wasted because Windwalkers could have been a good class.

Biggest issues as of today (there are others but these are the ones that really need to be fixed before launch or WW simply are completely unattractive and unwanted to competitive guilds and players)

1) No raid utility. Easiest fix? Bring Chi-ji back and make it give 20% mastery for 10 seconds. It's then approximately equivalent to Stormlash and Skull Banner.
2) No cleave. Easiest fix? Allow Blackout kick to hit an additional 2 targets. This is a big deal. On many bosses where cleaving and multidotting is needed for maximum DPS the difference from Monks to Rogues and Warriors and casters isn't 5% or 10% weaker. Rogues do nearly twice as much damage on those boss fights. You don't need to think twice if you're a GM and you're doing it heroic mode in the progress competition if you want to bring your guild's one or two Windwalkers or if you'll just take classes infinitely more useful.
3) Weak aoe. Easiest fix? Buff Spinning Crane Kick damage considerably for Windwalkers.
4) 90% of the community absolutely hates having a 4 second Fist of Fury in a 20 second rotation and the other 10% are just trying to cope with it somehow. The class with mobility as its supposed strength is self-rooted 20% of the time. Fists of Fury needs to be redesigned completely. Easiest fix? The damage shouldn't be split between multiple opponents at all, and a glyph needs to exist that removes the stun and allows it to be channeled while walking.

[Deleted]

They could always give us back Tigereye Brandy from the early beta patches:

Tigereye Brandy (LVL 64)
1 Chi, Instant, 90 second cooldown
Requires Tiger Stance
Causes your Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick to also hit 3 additional nearby enemies within 5 yards when they deal damage for 20 seconds.

Cost, duration and cooldown could be adjusted to what's needed of course.

[Deleted]

I'm starting to think that the abilities which were needed to make WW viable were removed so that they can be added in the next expansion.

Distantly related I'm finding it more and more funny that the most active class community on the US beta forums have managed to not only get Blizzard to balance all their 3 DPS specs within a 0.3% spread, but also made sure that they are the #1, #2 and #3 specs in the entire game for damage. If you didn't know I'm talking about Mages.

Mod edit: Please stay on topic

[Deleted]

Really loving the discussion and suggestions, lots of potential things that can and will be added to the OP.

Chi-ji looks to be a very nice option the only problem I can see is that mastery effects different people in different ways, you could use it as a tank CD as afaik most tanks would gain a decent benefit from mastery, or as a healing CD as again, mastery is useful for most healers too, but as a dps CD it's basically unfair, it's strong for some and junk for others and would make balancing dps with such a buff very hard to implement, if I had to guess I would say that may be the reason it was removed. If they could make Chi-ji with a mechanic like some of the trinkets, gives x haste/crit/mastery (chooses highest stat) for 10-15 secs then it would be very nice and fair, but I am not sure whether they could make something like that.

That alone would not be enough to bring us back into the pack, but it would give us some bargaining chips with raid leaders should we be looking to be picked as WW only monk.

As for the AoE/cleave issue, i'm pretty sure we wont get both a cleave and an AoE boost, it's pretty clear that they don't see monks as that type of a class and I can understand that there has to be some flavour differences between us and others. For heavy AoE fights we can change talents to increase our output and whilst we will still most likely fall near to the bottom of the pile in those fights, someone has to, I really want to focus on the issues that are stopping us from being viable as oppose to those that are not putting us at the top of the meters (generally those get hotfixed once things are fully live) as I feel we have a much better chance of getting Blizzard to take notice if what we ask for is reasonable.

---------- Post added 2012-08-22 at 11:39 AM ----------

They could always give us back Tigereye Brandy from the early beta patches:

Tigereye Brandy (LVL 64)
1 Chi, Instant, 90 second cooldown
Requires Tiger Stance
Causes your Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick to also hit 3 additional nearby enemies within 5 yards when they deal damage for 20 seconds.

Cost, duration and cooldown could be adjusted to what's needed of course.

This looks like an incredibly reasonable option.

*added section to OP about viable interrupts

[cray1986]

You are forgetting quite a few things to be honest... and if you dont consider these utility, then there is something wrong.

Disable - Snare / Root
Paralysis - In Combat CC - Glyphed to make it a ranged CC, IE. Blind.
Diffuse Magic - Essentially a Soaking tool, this + Zen Med can really allow the WW to soak different mechanics.
Grapple - Ranged Disarm
Both FoF and Leg Sweep are AoE Stuns.
Provoke / Fort Brew - Oh Shit Taunt and Offtank moment.
Detox - Cleanse
Spear Hand - Although pricey, still an interrupt.

Honestly I don't see a lack of utility at all.

[Deleted]

Paralysis - In Combat CC - Glyphed to make it a ranged CC, IE. Blind.

Doesn't work in raid PvE.

Diffuse Magic

Self-defences are not utility. Many classes have them and we don't list them.

Grapple

Doesn't work in raid PvE.

Both FoF and Leg Sweep are AoE Stuns.

Doesn't work in raid PvE.

Provoke / Fort Brew - Oh Shit Taunt and Offtank moment.

One of them is a mild self-defence and the other one is a standard taunt. Neither one is utility.

Detox

Not utility. Many classes with DPS specs have dispels both friendly and offensive but that is not utility in raid PvE.

Spear Hand

The worst interrupt in the game. Not raid PvE utility. In fact the interrupt is so bad that Monks will never have to interrupt anything because it gimps their already weak DPS.

Honestly I don't see a lack of utility at all.

You started by saying if we don't see these as raid utility something is wrong but I really wonder if you play this game at all.

[JRule]

Doesn't work in raid PvE.

Self-defences are not utility. Many classes have them and we don't list them.

Doesn't work in raid PvE.

Doesn't work in raid PvE.

One of them is a mild self-defence and the other one is a standard taunt. Neither one is utility.

Not utility. Many classes with DPS specs have dispels both friendly and offensive but that is not utility in raid PvE.

The worst interrupt in the game. Not raid PvE utility. In fact the interrupt is so bad that Monks will never have to interrupt anything because it gimps their already weak DPS.


You started by saying if we don't see these as raid utility something is wrong but I really wonder if you play this game at all.

While things like these weren't listed as utility for other classes, they do have situational uses in PvE.

Paralysis - "Doesn't work in raid PvE" - Would have been useful on Phase 1 Nef as a CC.
Grapple - "Doesn't work in raid PvE" - Works on some humanoid bosses and most humanoid adds.
Both FoF and Leg Sweep are AoE Stuns - "Doesn't work in raid PvE" - Nefarian, Ragnaros, Rhyolith, and probably more.

Like I said, though, Disarm, CC, and AoE Stuns/Ice Nova weren't listed in other classes, but these abilities DO have PvE applications.

[Deleted]

Alot of classes have very similar abilities to what you have just listed, in fact most of them are pretty standard things across the board, i'm not gonna go through each ability you listed because it has been done above. The OP is specifically designed to be as short and concise as it can be whilst still supporting the point that Windwalkers could really do with a little bit of love (I am not bashing Windwalkers or saying they are useless).

I appreciate that some people will disagree with this point and those people are entitled to that oppinion but if you are going to dispute the point then your need to show using clear comparisons and relevant raid examples of how we have utility, listing something like a ranged disarm that will have little to no use in a raid other than trash as utility, and a bunch of stuns (raid bosses cannot be stunned) and snares (which other classes provide most of which in an AoE and ranged format) is not contributing significantly to the thread.

For example, on fight A I was able to use Grapple on an add that is untankable to save our healers from getting insta gibbed, it's not something other classes in my raid were able to offer and it really helped us progress.

Doesn't work in raid PvE.

You started by saying if we don't see these as raid utility something is wrong but I really wonder if you play this game at all.

This thread was designed with the intention for open and constructive discussion I agree with most of the points you made but please try to leave the inflammatory comments off the end, even if the person you are replying to makes antagonistic statement in their post, otherwise this just turns into playground tit for tat

[Deleted]

This thread was designed with the intention for open and constructive discussion I agree with most of the points you made but please try to leave the inflammatory comments off the end, even if the person you are replying to makes antagonistic statement in their post, otherwise this just turns into playground tit for tat

You need to grow a thicker skin if what I just said offended you enough to write all that. The person said there's something wrong if we don't consider "Gouge" and "Dismantle" and "Kick" etc 25man raid utility and I questioned his credibility after disarming his entire argument line by line. Other than that it's fantastic that you started this thread. Windwalkers aren't getting enough attention on the US beta forums so if you are an US player or know one you should post these same concerns there.

[Deleted]

While things like these weren't listed as utility for other classes, they do have situational uses in PvE.

Paralysis - "Doesn't work in raid PvE" - Would have been useful on Phase 1 Nef as a CC.
Grapple - "Doesn't work in raid PvE" - Works on some humanoid bosses and most humanoid adds.
Both FoF and Leg Sweep are AoE Stuns - "Doesn't work in raid PvE" - Nefarian, Ragnaros, Rhyolith, and probably more.

Like I said, though, Disarm, CC, and AoE Stuns/Ice Nova weren't listed in other classes, but these abilities DO have PvE applications.

You are right, they do have some applications in a raid environment but often there is a viable or more suitable alternative provided by other classes, classes that provide more consistent over all damage (through cleaves or AoE) so why would you pick a monk. Also these situation your refer to are more the exception than the rule, you have mention 3 bosses out of 3 tiers of raids, that would not be enough of a reason to have a Windwalker in the roster over another class.

I will add a section in OP defining what exactly is meant by "utility" so that we don't get lost arguing the point of semantics, because if I include every slow/snare/root etc in the OP it will become an unreadable monster of a post that will not encourage constructive discussion.

[Charge me Doctor]

If you look at leather melee DD classes (rogue, cat, monk). Only rogue have a cleave attack in 1 spec. Swipe, FoK is burst AoE damage skill, and, i can be wrong, but WW monk have 2 skills to deal burst AoE damage.
Stuns often required to take down adds (rogue/cat 1 finisher, 1 stealth opener as stuns). You can't just compare a spec to all classes.
And as i remember, only warrior has AoE stun (talent) out of melee classes. So, having one baseline is great thing. Not on patchwerk fight, but overall this is good thing to have.

[JRule]

You are right, they do have some applications in a raid environment but often there is a viable or more suitable alternative provided by other classes, classes that provide more consistent over all damage (through cleaves or AoE) so why would you pick a monk. Also these situation your refer to are more the exception than the rule, you have mention 3 bosses out of 3 tiers of raids, that would not be enough of a reason to have a Windwalker in the roster over another class.

I will add a section in OP defining what exactly is meant by "utility" so that we don't get lost arguing the point of semantics, because if I include every slow/snare/root etc in the OP it will become an unreadable monster of a post that will not encourage constructive discussion.

I wasn't saying that those should be added as utility. I was responding to kensai666's comment that they "Don't work in raid PvE." I pointed out that other classes had abilities that are very similar, but weren't listed. While they don't meet this thread's guidelines as utility, they do have applications outside of PvP.

[Deleted]

I wasn't saying that those should be added as utiltiy. I was responding to kensai666's comment that they "Don't work in raid PvE." I pointed out that other classes had abilities that are very similar, but weren't listed. While they don't meet this thread's guidelines as utility, they do have applications outside of PvP.

Understood, just trying to provide some balance as some people tend to pitch their tent at the very extreme end of the spectrum which can provoke an equally extreme counter argument which tends to descend into something unproductive

As for the posting this on US forums, I currently have no method of doing this, nor do I know a US player who can assist. Hopefully as this post gathers pace and we start to form a more cogent argument someone will pick it up and run with it in the right place, if not then at least we have raised awareness of Windwalker weaknesses and Strengths so people can make an educated decision about playing them, after all, the one thing that will get Blizzards attention is if their new class is under represented.

[Deleted]

I wasn't saying that those should be added as utiltiy. I was responding to kensai666's comment that they "Don't work in raid PvE." I pointed out that other classes had abilities that are very similar, but weren't listed. While they don't meet this thread's guidelines as utility, they do have applications outside of PvP.

Nefarian adds weren't single target disoriented. I can't see why you keep bringing that up. Additionally, basically every single class had abilities to control or slow the adds on Ragnaros. Like Valient has pointed out this utility discussion isn't about baseline abilities like kidney shot or hammer of justice or fists of fury, but raid utility, like combat resses, damage mitigators or damage buffs, to name a few.

[Teriz]

Glyphed Healing Spheres should also be considered raid utility.

It would appear that just about everyone agrees that Invoke Chi-Ji should be put back in the game. Is there anyone on the Beta forums pushing for this? I think since WW lack a statue, and it appears that people want WWs to have more raid utility, this could fill that role quite well without effecting balance too much.

[Deleted]

Glyphed Healing Spheres should also be considered raid utility.

Healing Sphere heals for 20k in full PvP gear self buffed if you assume that goes up to 30k fully raid buffed that is 3 x 30k heals, 90k healing which is about a third of a non tanks HP for the cost of 3x60 energy, 180 energy almost 2 full bars. The only time you could realistically cast this without really hurting your dps would be before the pull, if you could guarantee that these would not be used by accident or over heal in any way, then you get 90k healing per fight. I really can't see how this could be compared to the utility that I have mentioned in the OP and I also can't see it being worth a glyph slot.