I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Aphrel]

100% agree with op.

raid nowdays arent as enjoyable simply because one is doing rehashed content (we are FORCED to do it easymode(normal mode) before we are allowed into heroic raiding.. hence our heroic raids are nothing but the same content againb ut with higher numbers and a fiew more mechanics.)

i want tbc back.. sunwell was the best instance ever made (except the annoyin gating...)

[ShadowCrafter]

I still don't get how people can logically argue that changing an inclusive system into a much more exclusive system would provide any incentive for people to stay subscribed longer. You are advocating a system that from it's outset told a large portion of the playerbase people that it did not matter how skilled they were, or how much desire to do so they had, they were never going to be able to see all the content available in the game while it is relevant. Blizzard (and other MMOs) got away with it through the Vanilla/TBC era because that is how it had always been. That paradigm changed in Wrath, and the beginning of Cata demonstrated that the playerbase at large is unwilling to go back.

Burning crusade says hi.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/wo...1-million-mark

It's all about the journey m8, not just crossing the finish line.

[vesseblah]

From start to finish raids in cata were so objectively random that you never really felt like you were raiding. It became as such that it felt like you were doing something for example dailys. You don't raid to see your numbers and you don't raid to see your loot, you raid to test yourself in the struggles and difficulties of raiding. Yet in cataclysm the model they follow promotes no epic quality to the game as compared to tbc did, You can tie a story to your raid and make the illusion that it is epic but when it goes down to it you really didn't work hard enough to feel like you did.

There's no point or thought in that paragraph besides subjective ranting of epic feeling. It's english, but hard to even understand it when your thoughts wander all over the place.

For the record archimonde if you went for more than 1 second in the fire you can and will most likely die due to other mechanics that coincide with the fire trails he spawns, curses and etc.

Fire dot was totally healable because bad rng could make it totally unavoidable with fear, and there was a decurser in every group for a reason. Easier healable than getting hit by a lava wave on Ragaros for example, even if you by some miracle stay on the platform.

The model that world of warcraft is following now is causing many people who enjoyed raiding to start losing interest because they are lacking qualities of the game they actually liked due to unnecessary change.

The only things that were removed from raiding since TBC are exclusivity and awful random tuning. I really can't see anything negative with that.

Ragewinterchill - Regardless of how easy he was you still couldn't be an dumb ass and stand in Death and decay or you died within 2 seconds if you didn't have a pvp trinket you were dead from ice tombs

Hardest part of Rage Winterchill was seeing the damn death & decay on the floor because of low contrast spell effect. Don't try to glorify it as it was pure "move out of fire" fight.

AOE was a very hard to do thing at the time for tanks if you don't think so then clearly you do not and have not raided tbc not as simple as you claim

Paladin tanks were totally imba, almost broken OP in Hyjal. With consecration you could tank anything through any AOE, it was no rocket surgery, just spam one button. And without paladin tanks (had to do it few times) simply have all warriors and druids spec tanking for the trash and use 5-6 tanks there. Walk in the park really.

Archimonde - <snip> the overall progress of getting through a raid at the time was just more complex and required more team work than the raids do now.

Progressing through Archimonde took less than a week and under 100 tries in a shitty guild that was months behind world firsts. Compared to more than month and 200+ tries on Ragnaros. So... I have to disagree with your nostalgia trip.

As far as your argument about attunements go you do realize to unlock the specific raids required to you to clear raids that have to be done before them right? People couldn't down easier content to begin with so how does that statistic at all even work? The fact that attunements being removed is a testament to the system of progressive difficulty not in the likes of which is in favor to your argument.

TBC was very poorly tuned and back then when it was actually new content people universally hated and ridiculed it's concept of free loot reward bosses after completing the attunement chains. MH/BT were very poorly tuned being in general much easier than T5. Leotheras and Al'ar were harder to execute than 4/5 of Hyjal and 7/9 of Black Temple (all but RoS and Illidan).

[Deleted]

Thank you! Drop of 3 Million Subs since LFR came out? WoW Blizz what a great plan!

It would have been a 10 million drop if they hadn't changed.

[vesseblah]

You forgot T11, particularly if you did it in 25 man, you could get a PuG and clear a few fights with half your raid dead at the end of each fight.

Not forgetting anything, and there are pugs and "pugs". If you get first 24 randoms who answer you in /tard channel I can guarantee your numbers are different. Having run dozens of pugged raids in WLK I can say from experience that about 2/3 of people who participated were either alts of raiders, or mainspec raiders who had missed their guild's raid that week and needed their badges. Or 10man heroic raiders pugging 25 for extra loot.

And T11 also went from faceroll to very hard, just not in the order you'd expect. Free loot faceroll bosses were first two in BoT and first boss in ToFW, after that first four in BWD, after that AC and Chimaeron, with the three endbosses being about equal difficulty. There's four distinctive steps in 25man version of T11 of the difficulty going steadily up.

[Akka]

Why is this a problem

Read the thread.

Actually it is working very well.

Just because the numbers are not at their highest doesnt mean the game is not extremely successful. Look at any relative comparison to see this.

Okay, let's compare it to, well... Let's say, a game that was much more exclusive, had progression and content.
WoW Classic and early TBC for example !
Ah yeah, I can see a huge increase of sub in the latter, a huge decrease in the former.

'sorry, you were saying ?

However, get it out of your head that this game is about your feelings or your apparent like-minded 'raiders'.

Self-proclaimed "casuals" (and I say "self-proclaimed", because people who have so much time and energy to spend on game forums and still whine that they have not the time nor the involvement to raid are somewhat laughable) don't seem to have this problem of considering that the game is about them and should have everything tailored to them.
Why is a much more moderate position inacceptable when it comes from the other side ?

The two largest drops came at the beginning of Cata (when heroics and raids, by Blizzard's own admission, were closer to the TBC style of difficulty) and the quarter ending almost 6 months after LFR was released, once Dragon Soul had been out for half a year and people were pretty much in the "wait for expansion" mode.

Actually, twice wrong.
The first drop was the third smallest(600 000 or so), and it was recorded in april, after the huge nerf that happened to all content in the game in february.
The second drop was the biggest (1 million or so), and it happened right in the middle of the expansion.

I still don't get how people can logically argue that changing an inclusive system into a much more exclusive system would provide any incentive for people to stay subscribed longer.

Because fun != getting things handed on a plater.
More fun to progress through two tiers than to get a freepass to three while doing nothing.
More fun to have a world to discover and lots of things to do with it than just click a button to get rewards.
And, it's mind-boggling that I have to explain this : it's more fun to HAVE TO PLAY than to just be able to one-button-spam mindlessly.

[MasterHamster]

Well too bad, because it's not going to happen.
Blizzard knows better than to alienate their majority of customers like BC did. Only then we didn't know better, and the game was still new enough to attract a lot more NEW players daily. Or perhaps you want to pretend like a majority of players liked playing Karazhan for an entire expansion because the jump from 10 to 25 man killed guilds.

Theoretically, reset the game to BC again and the game would die. Literally.

[Darthcullen]

OP youre part of the 1%

[Oatz]

I like the system they are doing for MoP. And challenge modes are going to be there for the most hardcore (regional rankings anyway).

[DreamCast]

It would have been a 10 million drop if they hadn't changed.

Are you saying that the entire playerbase are a bunch of retards?

[Woozle]

Woozle .

Is that less people and less people are raiding.

No more big guilds.

10-man has aswell the same problems with a 25-man.

What do you think that atm we have 1/5 raiders from wotlk?

Does this game had evolution or simply deny?

This game has simply take a solo aspect. A solo aspect in an mmorpg ????? This is simply /kill

About raiding doesn't have anything with the design or anything .Is about motivation. Motivation back then was to do the 25-man (the know hard) and 10-man (the know easy) so likely now that 10=25 more and more people loosed they're motivation.

No more guild not more raiders. And small guilds can't hold the population of server.

That is sad. I hate to see an end of an era like that. According to the reddit thing, Blizzard sees there is a problem of keeping people in 25 mans and wants to fix it. At the same time, they also agree that a lot of the social aspect of the the game has been pushed aside. They hope to fix that in MoP with scenarios, challenge modes, and allowing battle tag grouping. I can't say that LFR is a cause, but I think it is more of a symptom. If raiders were a dying breed before LFR, maybe LFR is their way of getting average joe's interested and turning them into unlikely raiders. It is just a thought. I guess time will tell.

[DreamCast]

I like the system they are doing for MoP. And challenge modes are going to be there for the most hardcore (regional rankings anyway).

For players trying to compete in challenge modes they better make sure they level the most OP class of the month.

[Osmeric]

Thank you! Drop of 3 Million Subs since LFR came out? WoW Blizz what a great plan!

I do hope you're being sarcastic, since that didn't happen.

[araine]

I'm not comparing the accomplishments - it's the mindset that anyone wanting to do something that you personally haven't done is a special snowflake, surely you can figure that out.

Edit: Continue editing your post into an even bigger strawman argument, truly genius.

You obviously fail to grasp that nothing is taken away from you so far only a handful of full clears have ever been done with ZERO handicap in both ICC and DS. You have the raid you are looking for it is out there just dont come to me and cry about it being to hard for you and that someone else gets to see those same pixels on an easy mode version. Be happy you have your zero handicap raid out there now if you want us to sit in orgrimmar and go OMG look on him he is only the 3rd person worldwide to have downed this boss on normal.

Guess what it isnt gonna happen. despite your massive desire to be locked upon as a special pretty snowflake in Orgrimmar. Do your stuff and let the rest do whatever they want the fact that you still can turn the noob mode of and go for ZERO help in DS when you down your weekly clear of 8/8 HM. That is giving you everything you could ever dream of from the game. heck if you want a bigger challenge do it with removing 1 item every week until it becomes impossible for you.

I mean we dont want to remove your chance to the world first naked 8/8 zero handicap full HM clear of DS would we?? challenge still out there get working on it less than 2 weeks to get it done now.

[Monkeybrains]

OP youre part of the 1%

<snip>

Don't post meme's.

[Woozle]

To Araine: Methinks the hardcore that complain are really not as hardcore as they claim to be.

[Deleted]

I agree. Dumbing down and "more difficulties" hurts the overall experience of the game. At least for people who actually have what it takes to succeed in A VIDEO GAME (the majority sucks at it, as they do in succeeding in life).

[Woozle]

I agree. Dumbing down and "more difficulties" hurts the overall experience of the game. At least for people who actually have what it takes to succeed in A VIDEO GAME (the majority sucks at it, as they do in succeeding in life).

It only hurts the overall experience if you let it. You stick to your difficulties and I'll stick to mine. You can pretend mine doesn't even exist if it doesn't apply to you. For example: I HATE PvP. I really, truly do. I tried to like it, I wanted to like it, but in the end, I still loath it. But, instead of going on some sort of rant about how I hate it so it should go away and that blizzard is taking away precious resources away from my favorite content in favor of PvP, I just stay away from it. I don't queue for it, I play on a carebear server and my eyes gloss over whenever I come to a mmo-champ post about it. No problem. They play the game their way, I play it my way.

Lol, I gotta wonder how old you are. You are seriously saying that since someone doesn't succeed in a video game, they may also indeed fail at succeeding in life? I can't honestly remember when my video game skills came up as an indicator at how successful I am a being a wife, mother, coach, teacher, cook etc... That is pretty hilarious.

[Deleted]

Because fun != getting things handed on a plater.
More fun to progress through two tiers than to get a freepass to three while doing nothing.
More fun to have a world to discover and lots of things to do with it than just click a button to get rewards.
And, it's mind-boggling that I have to explain this : it's more fun to HAVE TO PLAY than to just be able to one-button-spam mindlessly.

So if I get this right the people complaining in here about lack of progression and being handed epics and whatever for doing nothing were unable to finish cata raids either before the next tier arrived or, in the case of DS, before the rolling nerfs? That is the only way I can see the current system even remotely affecting your personal game play and progression.

[tuesdaes_mad]

I'm all for this with the following caveat...Tiered Subscription Base

- I get to pay less in subscription fees every month...so I can stop hearing these elitists bitch and moan about how they aren't special snowflakes anymore.

- Blizzard makes the elitist "raiders" pay an increased subscription fee for raiding content. I'm tired of paying the same as you only to fund your content.

And yes I used to be a "raider" but hey I'm grown up now, married with a kid on the way. So yeah I don't want to commit 15-20 hours a week to my toons and raiding. RL can be pretty awesome too.

I've cleared heroic content on a 9 hour commitment, 3 hours at a time. Most of us have little children and can still do it. There is no need to spend more then 12 hours of your time to complete Cata and soon to be Mists raiding content. 9 hours for raiding with the rest being 3 hours in doing your dailies and profession activities. Most of the dailies you'd be able to do when kids go to bed or before they wake up.