Mafia game discussion thread.

[Firebert]

I love playing as a VT.

Check my win ratios. :3

[Lysah]

I love playing as a VT.

Check my win ratios. :3

Obvious scum.

[Firebert]

Obvious fail scum.

Fixed.

I probably better suit VT, low risk.

[Greeney]

Deciding you can't win and choosing who wins instead ruins the fun for everyone, in my opinion. Like I said, If Dyra/Anakso didn't decide it was over and role claim they might have won. If Dyra didn't tell Silkku exactly what to do to make sure he couldn't lose he might've lost. Is it a slim chance? Yes, but it's still a chance. In my time playing mafia other places I have NEVER seen behavior like what exists on MMOC. No one has ever given up and just tried to pick the winner so they still feel good about themselves for losing, they try to win until they're dead.

Hell, I had a game that came down to me as the cop + 2 townies and a traitor and that was it. The traitor had no way of winning, the town could just not lynch until I investigated the right one and got the traitor tell, but he still didn't give up because giving up goes against the spirit of the game.

You claim that giving up as going against the spirit of the game, but I see no lynches to be against the spirit of the game.
Way back when I started playing nobody voted to "no lynch," because the living was supposed to vote one person out each day and the mafia/sk killed one person a night. How I feel about spirit of the game probably won't matter to you, how you feel about it likely won't matter to the individual you're complaining about.

Using the "spirit of the game" argument is counterintuitive IMO. People generally play mafia to have fun, anything should be allowed as long as they follow any rules specifically outlined by the moderator.

I hope I didn't come across offensive, but just wanted to add some insight from my PoV.

[Rollo]

If you want to role claim for yourself as a TPR or scum, more power to you. I do think it should not be allowed to give up your whole team though. At the same time, that's a strategy in itself. Whomever claimed hey were mafia there first could have said deca was on their team just as easy as they said the other alive mafia was on their team. I think thy happene in a previous game. I can't remember if it was Ana or Dyra who gave up first and spilled the team makeup. If it was Ana, HE could have said that he was the loan remaining mafia, and we were lynching him. Listo deca and Treann (I think Treann was mafia, don't remember) were on his team so the remaining people were townies against the SK. Obviously this would be a lie and the SK would know it. We go into the night thinking its a single night kill, either Dyra holds off on a kill, or targets the SK if she's completely sure Silkku was the SK, and we go into the day at 1v1v2 like we did, but thinking its 1v3. All the claiming the last 2 days kind of ruined spectating the game.

I know one of the nail biters I was involved with was game 8 or 9 and Foxxi tricked me towards the end. I had bedtime figured out, except her and who I thought the SK was. I think that final day or days involved me Foxxi army Lysah and possibly Arlee, maybe Eniah or Krayzy too. That last day in I got home from work was nuts. 2 hours or so of me and the scum going back and forth. I knew who they were from deductive reasoning, but still played into foxxi's hand in the end. That's how a game should end.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 07:42 PM ----------

So to fix what I started saying and didn't quite get out, while I feel giving up your whole team shouldn't be allowed (even with their prrmission), giving away a fake team is an amazing tool to use when you get caught as scum in the end, and therefore should be allowed.

[Deleted]

If you want to role claim for yourself as a TPR or scum, more power to you. I do think it should not be allowed to give up your whole team though. At the same time, that's a strategy in itself. Whomever claimed hey were mafia there first could have said deca was on their team just as easy as they said the other alive mafia was on their team. I think thy happene in a previous game. I can't remember if it was Ana or Dyra who gave up first and spilled the team makeup. If it was Ana, HE could have said that he was the loan remaining mafia, and we were lynching him. Listo deca and Treann (I think Treann was mafia, don't remember) were on his team so the remaining people were townies against the SK. Obviously this would be a lie and the SK would know it. We go into the night thinking its a single night kill, either Dyra holds off on a kill, or targets the SK if she's completely sure Silkku was the SK, and we go into the day at 1v1v2 like we did, but thinking its 1v3. All the claiming the last 2 days kind of ruined spectating the game.

I know one of the nail biters I was involved with was game 8 or 9 and Foxxi tricked me towards the end. I had bedtime figured out, except her and who I thought the SK was. I think that final day or days involved me Foxxi army Lysah and possibly Arlee, maybe Eniah or Krayzy too. That last day in I got home from work was nuts. 2 hours or so of me and the scum going back and forth. I knew who they were from deductive reasoning, but still played into foxxi's hand in the end. That's how a game should end.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 07:42 PM ----------

So to fix what I started saying and didn't quite get out, while I feel giving up your whole team shouldn't be allowed (even with their prrmission), giving away a fake team is an amazing tool to use when you get caught as scum in the end, and therefore should be allowed.

I have a vague memory of this game, was I scum or town?

[Rollo]

I think you were town. This may have been the game web I was the seeker or watcher or whatever. I've been meaning to look it up.

[keleb]

This all seems like some sort of projecting trying to come up with a reason others aren't as active in these games, but if you actually look at forum activity for many of these people you'll see their posting is down across the board. It's what happens when people get busier in real life or move on to other things.

This hold validity. It is nothing we really can fix directly though. We can't really go tell people to stop working overtime or ditch family dinner to play Maifa. There'll always be those who are more active than others because people have different amount of time to spare. Doing things that somehow promote participation and contribution might make those with more filled schedules to perhaps pick up their phone and log on during the bus ride home from work or on their lunch break, whatever fits. We can't ignore promoting activity and contributions just because we know some people can't log on more.

I still propose we go back to a more normal game. Hell, this games setup would be fine if we hadn't had the BT VT's or a cannibal with a vest.

The idea for this game was that it would be rather normal or simplistic. Setup for next game looks to be similar but with one less BT.

It could have been a fun last day and a half if it wasn't for the vest.

I don't feel it was the vest that "spoiled" the last day(s). I'll get back to the vest below.

I disagree on self voting to a point. There are times where it is advantageous to your team. Those times are when you want to limit the daytime discussion so that other members of your team can't be linked to you before night. It then makes it so you can night kill a person that you would think would put 2 and 2 together and thus make it so they never get a chance to tell everyone else.

Yes, there are definitely uses of it. The same thing with suicide, when there are more players in your team could be advantageous in other setups. The version I've played IRL had no revelation of roles when you died. You made connection based on how people had voted and what they said. Killing one of your own could potentially clear you of suspicion. There are uses for it, but is it enough to justify the behaviour for which it is more commonly (at least to my eyes) used for?

I'm gonna draw a parallel similar to what the defence used in the trial against the founders of The Pirate Bay. Just because an infrastructure you provide may be used for criminal activity doesn't make you a criminal by providing it. Compare to roads, those are used daily for transporting illegal weapons, people are driving over the speed limit on them etc. The reason for the conviction later was that even though that it was the "intent" or actual use of the service. That the service could be used for good activity, sharing the pictures of your family holiday, that wasn't what the service was used for mainly.

There are a few borderline cases and a grey area. Not allowing outright suicides (single one left on your team) but leaving the rest allowed might be the way to go.

I agree that the SK being NK immune is too much power to also be a cannibal. Especially if you're going to rule a 1v1 during the day a scum win. Winning as SK should be really difficult, but with a vest and priority NKing he just has to keep a mafia alive and get the game down to ~5 players and he can't possibly lose unless people just get mad at him and lynch him because they prefer a mafia win. Silkku played well but I wonder if this set up was perhaps too easy for him, not to take away any credit.

Assuming people realize who the sk is, which isn't always the case. And it is really hard to win as an SK as it is. You have to go against everyone. Also, he was only "immune" to being night killed at the end because there was only one night phase left in the game and until that point no one had targeted him because he did a great job of playing and not rousing the mafia's suspicions.

On the topic of the cannibal with the vest: Foxxi and I discovered if we gave only one type of sk(strongman) a vest, no one would ever choose anything else. We then removed the vest and all sk's had no vests just perks. Everyone started choosing ninja then b/c we had a jail immunity on it. We removed that and that's when other types started getting used. In other words, you either have to give all types a vest or no types a vest and make sure there aren't any op immunities as well.

I do think that the SK should be about misleading the town, or perhaps rather misleading the mafia to not become a target. I think Silkku did an excellent job as SK this game (perhaps I'm biased of being able to enjoy his diary during the game). But you can't always know what will make you become a target in the eyes of the mafia (or Vigi if there is one). The vest isn't imo a great tool because it usually just signals that you found a good target to kill, it just prolongs your life by one day. In a game of roughly this setup there's about a 40% chance that the SK will still be alive at the dawn of day 5 if it was all random without a vest. There's about 40% chance the SK will have been hit by a NK or lynched at the dawn of Day 4. If that was a NK attempt, he won't live to the next day. The more NKs there are each night, the better the vest is because there's a higher risk of being NKed. In a game with just one scum faction, perhaps the vest isn't needed.

On a similar topic, I've been considering giving bombs an "arm time". If a NK is aimed at a bomb on say night 2 the bomb will arm, both the bomb and the assassin will walk away alive, but the next time someone attempts to NK the bomb, it will explode like usual. This will give slightly less value to the bomb but higher value to the doc and also to the vest. Having such a functionality in the last game would definitely have made the vest OP though. The thought behind it would be to get away from the blind "just hit it again". It is likely there'll be a single Bomb or PGO in the next game. While I'm not a big fan of the Bomb/PGO, there was a few times where I think having the mafia know that the player could be a Bomb would have been nice.

If I'm playing, it's kinda obvious you can't discuss all the intricacies of the next game with me, but I do have a wealth of knowledge from modding a lot of games that I can share with you mods if needed :P

* makes a reference to a PM on what setup might be used and explodes someone's head

*
Hmm... seems I can't use your knowledge anymore... On a more serious note. I will make contact with you and others if I feel I need it. I bounced the setup for last game with Arlee (but that was before I added BT).

Yes, we had theoretical chance of winning, however any SK with half a brain would kill a townie in that position, not the lone mafia (considering the vest, and even though Silkku didn't know if his vest was intact or not, he knew we knew he was the SK, and would therefore lynch him out if he decided to go for dyra)
But I sort of counted on Silkku going to kill either me or Kisuro, so either way the town wouldn't have won ( at least not if the SK knew what he was doing) which is why I voted for Silkku originally rather than a no-lynch.

How did you know Silkku was the SK before he claimed (or really before the end of the game)? Personally I felt like Kisuro was still undecided about the SK. Had it been Silkku-Kisuro-Eniah left at the end, I think Silkku would have pushed for Eniah being SK and playing really well but still voted for him. I'm unsure of who Kisuro would have voted for.

Hell, I had a game that came down to me as the cop + 2 townies and a traitor and that was it. The traitor had no way of winning, the town could just not lynch until I investigated the right one and got the traitor tell, but he still didn't give up because giving up goes against the spirit of the game.

Yea, I think this is what I think should be a good thing to aim for. There was a way for the traitor to win though I guess (in theory) which was to make sure every other town aligned player was lynched. This would have required some really stupid play by town, but then, a skilled player might convince them. I'm not saying it was possible in this case and in many others, but in some cases where it might look like this, it isn't impossible.

People generally play mafia to have fun, anything should be allowed as long as they follow any rules specifically outlined by the moderator.

I hope I didn't come across offensive, but just wanted to add some insight from my PoV.

Which is what we are trying to make sure happens in the next game, that people have fun, or at least enjoy it. If a mafia thinks it is fun to role claim on day one and give up his allies, I doubt it will be fun for anyone else in the game. We all have different perception of what we enjoy and think is fun. I think what we are trying to do is to reduce the amount of "boring" and "disappointment" now.

Constructive input (which I think your definitely was) is always welcome even if we (or at least I) don't agree with it at the time. The next time we might very well agree with it. (Inb4 someone tells me I quoted a CM without reference )

I can't remember if it was Ana or Dyra who gave up first and spilled the team makeup. If it was Ana, HE could have said that he was the loan remaining mafia, and we were lynching him. Listo deca and Treann (I think Treann was mafia, don't remember) were on his team so the remaining people were townies against the SK. Obviously this would be a lie and the SK would know it. We go into the night thinking its a single night kill, either Dyra holds off on a kill, or targets the SK if she's completely sure Silkku was the SK, and we go into the day at 1v1v2 like we did, but thinking its 1v3. All the claiming the last 2 days kind of ruined spectating the game.
So to fix what I started saying and didn't quite get out, while I feel giving up your whole team shouldn't be allowed (even with their prrmission), giving away a fake team is an amazing tool to use when you get caught as scum in the end, and therefore should be allowed.

Yes, this is very reasonable. I guess no one thought (and voiced those thoughts) on this, maybe because people were already suspicious of Dyra. Claiming to be the last mafia would probably have been the most likely other claim, but claiming that there was still one (or two!?) mafia still out there, and saying something along the lines "I think we will win anyway" might have made the town think a bit more. When you're outside the game and you know the claim is real, but when still playing you can't be sure. The problem is I think that there are few that thinks along these lines. Similar to why we have rather few mafia daring claim a TPR (Hello Firebert ) at least in comparison to what I was used to before joining these games here.



Another thing I would like comments on is what you would think of a game with a floating half-known setup. Where you know there let's say 3-5 mafia. You won't know for sure that mafia is cleansed until you've killed 5 of them, but maybe you've killed them all at three. Setup for the last game might have looked like this:
3-6 Mafia from 1-2 teams
0-2 SK
0-1 Bomb/PGO
1 Cop
1 Doc/Nurse
0-1 MEs
6-12 VT
You would know what roles there would be and roughly in what numbers but you can't be sure.


Still another thing on a similar topic. What would you like to have it so that the role of the dead (lynched included) is NOT revealed by mod in but instead revealed by the ME (I guess there would have to be at least two though) later? This would drastically reduce the power of the cannibal though.


*Worgen and I had a PM conversation about a possible other game to which I basically return a WIFOM answer to whether I would use it or not

[Rollo]

I'd love to play in a semi closed setup, but I would hope we only have 2 night kills. Having 3 nks makes the game too short to really catch what's happening. After 2 days with 3 nks and a lynch were down almost half the game.

As for death reveals, I think it would be an interesting game if we knew what did the kill, but not what was killed. Only the cannibal would ever know who they killed. Missing body = cannibal. Clean strikes and shurikens = ninja. Crushed body = strong man. Claw marks = wolf. Riddled with bullets = mafia. Poison dart/sniper kill = assassin/vigilante. Also, I think it would be interesting if the bomb didn't die but set up a claymore or trapped house to kill any intruder (including doctor?). The bomb would go off killing the intruder, but we would know who the bomb was. Same goes for PGO, shotgun blast to the chest of the intruder, and the town would know that the body came from
X persons house, so we would know them as the PGO.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 05:38 AM ----------

Oh. Lastly instead of masons, I thought about 2 cops working separately unless one investigates the other. They'd get "cop" in return. At that point they know they can trust that person, but could the other trust them? They could share investigations and begins working together and more concisely.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 06:01 AM ----------

I have a vague memory of this game, was I scum or town?

Found it! I was the observer and it was game 6. That's when I called Arlee a baddie mcevilperson. Woo!

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 06:34 AM ----------

You were the PGO that game Eniah. We were the 2 last townies against 6 baddies (3 teams).

[Loaf]

We tried a semi closed game once. We listed all the roles would and would not be in the game, but not their numbers but if they weren't listed, it was guaranteed they weren't going to be used. It's kinda hard to do with a small group though b/c you still have to keep some sort of balance which means you'll probably still have similar numbers.

[Dyra]

You were the PGO that game Eniah. We were the 2 last townies against 6 baddies (3 teams).

Oh I remember that one.

I was a SK. One of the Mafia got my vest on the penultimate night (bastard) and then we killed each other the following night (almost revenge!). That was a good game.

[Rollo]

Plans for a 21? Sign me up if you start one and I don't poke my head in. Just hit me with a confirmation pm an all will be good.

[keleb]

Plans for a 21? Sign me up if you start one and I don't poke my head in. Just hit me with a confirmation pm an all will be good.

I'll start a signup thread this weekend.

[Anakso]

Soo how about that Jester role in the next game aye?

[Lysah]

I demand to be the town drunk so I can heckle Anakso every single night.

[Anakso]

If I get heckled every single night I'll know it's you!

[Greeney]

Oh. Lastly instead of masons, I thought about 2 cops working separately unless one investigates the other. They'd get "cop" in return. At that point they know they can trust that person, but could the other trust them? They could share investigations and begins working together and more concisely.

Interesting enough, but you would need to take into account that's a more powerful role and I strongly suggest compensating the scum in return (i.e. a framer role).

Which is what we are trying to make sure happens in the next game, that people have fun, or at least enjoy it. If a mafia thinks it is fun to role claim on day one and give up his allies, I doubt it will be fun for anyone else in the game. We all have different perception of what we enjoy and think is fun. I think what we are trying to do is to reduce the amount of "boring" and "disappointment" now.

Constructive input (which I think your definitely was) is always welcome even if we (or at least I) don't agree with it at the time. The next time we might very well agree with it. (Inb4 someone tells me I quoted a CM without reference )

What I thought the argument had been was someone outed themselves as scum and told the townie how to ensure a victory in the game. I don't see anything wrong with that if someone feels that certain they'll lose, and I wouldn't compare it to throwing the game out the window on day 1.

As for death reveals, I think it would be an interesting game if we knew what did the kill, but not what was killed. Only the cannibal would ever know who they killed. Missing body = cannibal.

There's actually a role (generally refered to as janitor) who makes someones death just appear as ???. Though the janitor does not happen to get the role of the target who was killed either from what I remember.


Still can't get over this semi closed setup. I know each site mafia happens at has their own style, but I always felt that the main advantage the mafia had was having more information than town. Pretty much the main thing that makes me hesitant to play, outside of December being a busy month for me, I feel like it would be too easy for me if I'm town and too hard for me if I'm mafia (I like to be able to lie about my ability when scum, and when town knows there's 2 doctors, I can't exactly live very long if 1 doctors happen to die and another comes out as a living doctor).

[Lysah]

If I get heckled every single night I'll know it's you!

Or is it someone trying to set me up like Worgenite was obviously doing when you mysteriously died on night one two games ago :O

@Greeney
People will cite numerous town victories, but the town on MMOC has a history of being extremely bad. The scum dying are almost always a result of other scum killing them. Typically, a one scum faction game ends in a complete slaughter of the town.

[Loaf]

Or is it someone trying to set me up like Worgenite was obviously doing when you mysteriously died on night one two games ago :O

But, you set yourself up for that, I'm just the only one smart enough to have caught it :3

Also, for the 2nd part, I was the bestest townie ever one game! I was the vigi and took out mafia like 4/5 nights or so winning us the game. (sorry Kitteh)

[Lysah]

But, you set yourself up for that, I'm just the only one smart enough to have caught it :3

Also, for the 2nd part, I was the bestest townie ever one game! I was the vigi and took out mafia like 4/5 nights or so winning us the game. (sorry Kitteh)

Vigilante still isn't the town winning because it's any good at lynching...