[PvP] Elemental vs Flame Shock dispelling

[MiiiMiii]

In battlegrounds it is actually a legit problem again for Elemental Shaman when they start dispelling Flame Shock.

We no longer get a ridiculous amount of haste when they dispel it. Why they removed that is beyond me. Why they added a 5 sec CD to it is even more of a mystery.

When people start finding out about this in arena, good dispelers will dispel Flame Shock all the time. 8 sec cd if there is like 2 8sec CD dispel classes in 3v3? Say goodbye to all your burst/damage.

I guess they are doing it to let people "counter" us, but how are we supposed to be competitive if we struggle with both damage AND survivability?

Not to mention, Ascendance will suffer A LOT from this. People will prioritize dispelling Flame Shock as much as dispelling Wings from Paladins in Cataclysm.

[Tharkash]

In battlegrounds it is actually a legit problem again for Elemental Shaman when they start dispelling Flame Shock.

We no longer get a ridiculous amount of haste when they dispel it. Why they removed that is beyond me. Why they added a 5 sec CD to it is even more of a mystery.

When people start finding out about this in arena, good dispelers will dispel Flame Shock all the time. 8 sec cd if there is like 2 8sec CD dispel classes in 3v3? Say goodbye to all your burst/damage.

I guess they are doing it to let people "counter" us, but how are we supposed to be competitive if we struggle with both damage AND survivability?

Not to mention, Ascendance will suffer A LOT from this. People will prioritize dispelling Flame Shock as much as dispelling Wings from Paladins in Cataclysm.

I was going to point out several flaws in this post, but I'll stick to this one:
You mention 2 8sec dispels in 3v3, that means you're going against double healer, which in MoP doesn't have a prayer against 2 DPS and a healer. And god help a double healer team if they run up against something like RMP.

[Kralljin]

Play with a Mage or Lock.

If there's a mage, they need to dispel mates and themself all the time, if there's a lock, they think twice before they dispel.

[Endus]

In battlegrounds it is actually a legit problem again for Elemental Shaman when they start dispelling Flame Shock.

We no longer get a ridiculous amount of haste when they dispel it. Why they removed that is beyond me. Why they added a 5 sec CD to it is even more of a mystery.

When people start finding out about this in arena, good dispelers will dispel Flame Shock all the time. 8 sec cd if there is like 2 8sec CD dispel classes in 3v3? Say goodbye to all your burst/damage.

I guess they are doing it to let people "counter" us, but how are we supposed to be competitive if we struggle with both damage AND survivability?

Not to mention, Ascendance will suffer A LOT from this. People will prioritize dispelling Flame Shock as much as dispelling Wings from Paladins in Cataclysm.

You're underestimating the effect the 8s dispel limit will have, IMO. Plus, there's ways to capitalize; if the enemy healer is a Resto Shaman or Druid, for instance, if they dispel Flame Shock, hit one of their allies with Hex; their dispel is on CD and they can't clear it. Or anyone else's magic CC, like Polymorph or the like. Plus, magic dispels are healer-only, so you'd only see two dispels in a 3v3 if they're running two healers. That kind of dispel potential is going to hurt a LOT of classes, particularly DoT-focused specs.

Ascendance is perhaps too easy to counter, but I honestly don't see healers burning a dispel for Ascendance. If you're worried they will, FS your target, wait 4s, and then pop Ascendance. If they dispelled in that 4s, don't pop Ascendance. If they didn't, and they Dispel after you start going kablooie, just refresh and enjoy the remaining Ascendance duration dispel-free.

There's a lot of effects more dangerous to Arena than Flame Shock. We needed the dispel protection when healers were dispelling everything, but between tighter mana and the 8s limit, it shouldn't be necessary any more.

[Northy]

I think dispel protection is a legitimate concern. I've already seen the flaws of Elemental by playing bgs and wargames.

[MiiiMiii]

What are you talking about? Elemental Shaman has dispels too... Many other specs than healers has dispel.

[Deleted]

What are you talking about? Elemental Shaman has dispels too... Many other specs than healers has dispel.

Not a friendly magic dispel though.

[squid]

I wont be using my cooldown on dispelling just flame shock. There are way more important debuffs to use it on.

[Deleted]

What are you talking about? Elemental Shaman has dispels too... Many other specs than healers has dispel.

Well actually they don't... The have "purge" which removes things from enemy targets, and they have "cleanse spirit" that removes curse effects. None of those will remove a flame shock dot. Only when you spec resto will the "cleanse spirit" gain the additional ability to remove a magical effect as well, and the same goes for other classes.

[MiiiMiii]

Shadow Priests still can do it though

[woopytywoop]

It's going to matter a lot in the comps you're going to run.

best is to run with another class also providing magic debuffs and magic cc so the healers will keep his dispell for more important things.
You really don't want to play a comp in which FS is the only and most important thing to dispell.

[Blitond]

You're underestimating the effect the 8s dispel limit will have, IMO. Plus, there's ways to capitalize; if the enemy healer is a Resto Shaman or Druid, for instance, if they dispel Flame Shock, hit one of their allies with Hex; their dispel is on CD and they can't clear it. Or anyone else's magic CC, like Polymorph or the like. Plus, magic dispels are healer-only, so you'd only see two dispels in a 3v3 if they're running two healers. That kind of dispel potential is going to hurt a LOT of classes, particularly DoT-focused specs.

Yet again you show your lack of experience in PvP. You don't just throw out cc (especially a cc with a CD like Hex) because you can. Tossing out Hex w/o burst potential is useless, unless you're using it defensively (which is not the case you are describing).

Also DoT-focused classes have dispel protection opening them up to options when their DoT's are dispelled (silence or fear that doesn't share DR with other fears). Another thing is Shadow Priests have burst w/o their DoTs as well (unsure about lock since I've never played one).

Ascendance is perhaps too easy to counter, but I honestly don't see healers burning a dispel for Ascendance. If you're worried they will, FS your target, wait 4s, and then pop Ascendance. If they dispelled in that 4s, don't pop Ascendance. If they didn't, and they Dispel after you start going kablooie, just refresh and enjoy the remaining Ascendance duration dispel-free.

Yes, you can minimize the effects of dispels during ascendance, but you can't nullify it like you're suggesting. The only way you can successfully do this is by holding off your shocks (waiting to reapply Flame Shock) which takes away from our kiting and fulmination.

There's a lot of effects more dangerous to Arena than Flame Shock. We needed the dispel protection when healers were dispelling everything, but between tighter mana and the 8s limit, it shouldn't be necessary any more.

By dispelling Flame Shock they take away much of our burst. Mitigating damage > healing through it in most cases. Healers likely won't dispel on cooldown (unless you're running a comp where they have no other need for dispel). That's not the same as saying a competent will not dispel when they or their teammate is getting burst down, because they will.

[Kralljin]

Also DoT-focused classes have dispel protection opening them up to options when their DoT's are dispelled (silence or fear that doesn't share DR with other fears). Another thing is Shadow Priests have burst w/o their DoTs as well (unsure about lock since I've never played one).

Could you please link for this Ability?
As far as i know, Sp lost Sin & Punishment with MoP and it's dispel protection hasn't been backed into other talents.

Also, Balance Druid rely on Dot as well, they don't have a dispel protection.

Only dispel protection that remains from my knowledge is Unstable Affliction.

Yes, you can minimize the effects of dispels during ascendance, but you can't nullify it like you're suggesting. The only way you can successfully do this is by holding off your shocks (waiting to reapply Flame Shock) which takes away from our kiting and fulmination.

Personally, i would want to play with an Affli Lock, that solves the dispel issue and you can freely multidot FS, which is great for many Instant Lvb's as possible.

Shaman+Wl have great synergy anyway.

Alternatively, try playing with a Mage, they can't use every dispel on FS, if they just used dispel (for anything else than FS), use Ascendance and u got 8 Seconds freetime, if they dispel FS after these 8 seconds, re apply and you'll got the entire time covered.

Ascendance can't be used as No Brainer CD in PvP, that's for sure, but it's not impossible to use it effectively in 3v3 Arena.

By dispelling Flame Shock they take away much of our burst. Mitigating damage > healing through it in most cases. Healers likely won't dispel on cooldown (unless you're running a comp where they have no other need for dispel). That's not the same as saying a competent will not dispel when they or their teammate is getting burst down, because they will.

Rule of thumb, FS should be ready if you use Ascendance.

If that is the case, they will be unable to keep FS off a target while Ascendance is running.

[Blitond]

Could you please link for this Ability?
As far as i know, Sp lost Sin & Punishment with MoP and it's dispel protection hasn't been backed into other talents.

Looks like they did remove this for MoP, my apologies.

Also, Balance Druid rely on Dot as well, they don't have a dispel protection.

Only dispel protection that remains from my knowledge is Unstable Affliction.

Balance, Shadow Priests and Locks have no cooldown on their Dots, hence they can instantly reapply them (as opposed to our shock lockouts).

Personally, i would want to play with an Affli Lock, that solves the dispel issue and you can freely multidot FS, which is great for many Instant Lvb's as possible.

Shaman+Wl have great synergy anyway.

Shaman have traditionally had good synergy with locks. Our CC complements each other every well.

Alternatively, try playing with a Mage, they can't use every dispel on FS, if they just used dispel (for anything else than FS), use Ascendance and u got 8 Seconds freetime, if they dispel FS after these 8 seconds, re apply and you'll got the entire time covered.

Worst thing about playing with a mage is much of our CC doesn't compliment each other since they share the same DR (Hex and Poly, Frozen Power/Earthgrab and mage roots, Capacitor and Deep Freeze). It's not impossible playing with a mage, but all else equal you try and get CC that have different DR's.

Ascendance can't be used as No Brainer CD in PvP, that's for sure, but it's not impossible to use it effectively in 3v3 Arena.

Rule of thumb, FS should be ready if you use Ascendance.

If that is the case, they will be unable to keep FS off a target while Ascendance is running.

Yes, by not using your other shocks you can have FS ready to reapply. This means that you can't LvB + fulminate during Ascendance or use Frost Shock for kiting.

Like I've said before, the best solution is resetting FS's cooldown when it's dispelled.

This doesn't hurt the PvE kids AT ALL. There would be no reason for them to cry about it.

For PvP: It would make us like other casters who can reapply their DoT's. The only thing you would lose by a dispel would be a GCD.

[Kralljin]

Balance, Shadow Priests and Locks have no cooldown on their Dots, hence they can instantly reapply them (as opposed to our shock lockouts).

You can hardly compare that, Sp's have one casttime with a dot, another is a disease and therefore not dispelable by any team with a healer.
Locks have 3 Dot's, including one with Casttime

Their damage suffers badly as well, constantly re appling your dots and wasting a few gcd's that you could have used for anything else.

Worst thing about playing with a mage is much of our CC doesn't compliment each other since they share the same DR (Hex and Poly, Frozen Power/Earthgrab and mage roots, Capacitor and Deep Freeze). It's not impossible playing with a mage, but all else equal you try and get CC that have different DR's.

Warlock is obviously the better choice, but you need a mate that has some magic debuffs as well, if you're playing with a warrior they will ofc only dispel your fs.

Yes, by not using your other shocks you can have FS ready to reapply. This means that you can't LvB + fulminate during Ascendance or use Frost Shock for kiting.

Like I've said before, the best solution is resetting FS's cooldown when it's dispelled.

This doesn't hurt the PvE kids AT ALL. There would be no reason for them to cry about it.

For PvP: It would make us like other casters who can reapply their DoT's. The only thing you would lose by a dispel would be a GCD.

You can use earthbind / earthgrab if you want a slow during ascendance, a single GCD because a potential totemic projection is off GCD.

And i don't see why you want to use Fulmination during Ascendance, if an enemy is that low that Fulmination could finish him off, just use it.


Also, having dispel Protection in the game just defeats the purpose of the CD on Magic dispel, the only spec that has one is Affli lock, because their entire damage comes from magic effects.

[Socialhealer]

SOMETHING needs to be done...there's tons of suggestions flying around, but definitely the 5 second CD on shock hurts us massively and i think will make ele non glad viable, its just too much to choose bewteen lava burst, slowing or a 7 stack ES, if you really need to slow and spam it...when can u ever burst? while other casters can throw a fear, or spam sunfire/moonfire.ice lance....

ele NEEDS something spammable to compete with other casters.....notice RBGS? boomkin/affli/spriest/fmage/spriest all desired because of dots and always something instant so only blanket silence could stop them, as opposed to ele which would cry the second lightning bolt got interrupted

but i know its a new season dispels changed dots supposedly nerfed....but we'll see i still think ele will be "good" but not great like other casters

[Kralljin]

SOMETHING needs to be done...there's tons of suggestions flying around, but definitely the 5 second CD on shock hurts us massively and i think will make ele non glad viable, its just too much to choose bewteen lava burst, slowing or a 7 stack ES, if you really need to slow and spam it...when can u ever burst? while other casters can throw a fear, or spam sunfire/moonfire.ice lance....

A longer Interrupt Lockout helps greatly, doing some hardcasts won't be the end, also successfully fake casting means 15 Sec free of Interrupts.

Also, keeping a target slowed is easier with an earthbind that ticks every 2sec and totemic projection.

ele NEEDS something spammable to compete with other casters.....notice RBGS? boomkin/affli/spriest/fmage/spriest all desired because of dots and always something instant so only blanket silence could stop them, as opposed to ele which would cry the second lightning bolt got interrupted

Mass Dispel dispels every single magic debuff on friendly targets, if for example a Fire mage spreads Combustion -> Mass dispel and the fun is over.
Altough Mass dispel has a 15sec CD, it is still a powerful tool vs multi dotter in RBG, because it literally removes any dots on the target it hits, especially if you got multiple priests (doesn't matter if Sp, Disc or Holy).

[Tharkash]

Mass Dispel dispels every single magic debuff on friendly targets, if for example a Fire mage spreads Combustion -> Mass dispel and the fun is over.
Altough Mass dispel has a 15sec CD, it is still a powerful tool vs multi dotter in RBG, because it literally removes any dots on the target it hits, especially if you got multiple priests (doesn't matter if Sp, Disc or Holy).

That is a little off.. Mass Dispel only removes 1 debuff or 1 buff from a friendly or hostile target, up to 10 targets per cast and prioritizes Immunity effects.

[Kralljin]

That is a little off.. Mass Dispel only removes 1 debuff or 1 buff from a friendly or hostile target, up to 10 targets per cast and prioritizes Immunity effects.

"Dispels magic in a 15 yard radius, removing all harmful spells from each friendly target and 1 beneficial spells from each enemy target. "

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=32375

It is true that it only hits 10 friendly and 10 enemy targets, but i don't think there's hardly ever a rated situation when got more than 10 friendly people within 15yards.

[Deleted]

Yup. Everything that dispels friendly targets of magic effects dispels all of them now, including Mass Dispel. Thats why its mana cost is massive, 13% of your mana is massive. Thats actually approaching double the amount of mana HR takes to cast for Elemental and Resto Shaman (HR is 43.1% of base mana, but Resto and Ele have 400% increase mana pools, meaning in fact HR is only 8.62% of our mana). Very high reward for very high cost.