Kuni's Frost Mage PVE Guide

[nickseng]

My best guess is that if you can get 14 or more additional BF's over the course of a fight from BF, then NT is better than LB. This number is easier to achieve on multi-target multi-dot fights, ...

I'm not sure why multi-target fights would give you more BF?

[Akraen]

I'm not sure why multi-target fights would give you more BF?

Because at high levels of haste the cleave of a NT on a lot of targets pulls ahead of LB and NT results in more BF procs.

[normallyinsane]

How can one go about inputting this newly found info into something like askmrrobot? What are the stat weights to use? I was told about this recently, and would love to try it out.

herp derp,, figured out what to do..:P

[nickseng]

Because at high levels of haste the cleave of a NT on a lot of targets pulls ahead of LB and NT results in more BF procs.

Huh. I did not know the cleave of NT procced FB. I thought only the dot-tick did.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Huh. I did not know the cleave of NT procced FB.

It doesn't. He's worded it oddly.

[Saegno]

I'm not sure why multi-target fights would give you more BF?

It doesn't. Still only counts the last applied bomb when figuring BF procs.

[Deleted]

I'm more and more convinced of continued haste stacking for each type of NT plateau before switching back to intellect.

However, even though I'm seeing this surprisingly controversial result (people really are coming at me hard in other threads), I still am perfectly open minded to be proven wrong.

This math seems incredibly complex and I wouldn't even know how to take a stab at it, but when WoL says one thing and conventional knowledge says another, I start trying things. And what I've been finding so far is as Malfecto says, a smoother, quicker gameplay without Glyph of Icy Veins and maximizing NT ticks. This isn't to maximize the damage of the Nether Tempest, it's to fish for procs of both RPPM and BF.

My best guess is that if you can get 14 or more additional BF's over the course of a fight from BF, then NT is better than LB. This number is easier to achieve on multi-target multi-dot fights, so those fights justify NT and tick maximizing. And if you get to a certain amount of NT ticks you not only do that, but you also switch targets better to reapply frostbolt debuffs and benefit in a variety of other ways.

It's very much up for debate now I think, and I'm looking to find a better way to look at it intuitively and logically-- maybe Kuni or Nathyiel can help, but I think it requires further investigation rather than regurgitating conventional knowledge. I'm prepared to be wrong, I just want to see how crazy next tier can be if I'm right and we do become very Nether Tempest-centric of a spec.

I'm thinking a lot on "why Haste is better before breack point and Intel after but DoT scale linearly" and I have found a few point.
1-- The relative value of a stat and DPS/DPET are different thinks.
SimC is simply calculating that near a new tick, it's optimal to reach it. This result in an increased Haste value.
Contrary, after a new tick, the next tick is really far, so it's better to increase it's raw damage. Conclusion, Intellect value increase.

2-- Brain freeze proc isn't to be neglect
Like in #1, the value of a new tick increase because each one add a chance to proc Brain Freeze.
Interestingly, after each new tick Intel, Crit* and Mastery value increase to make a better use of the new proc rate.

3-- Finger of Frost proc say Hi! too
With increase proc rate, especially with the 4-piece bonus, each Frostbolt and Frostfirebolt have a chance to proc it.
In Frostbolt case, it result in increasing Haste value continuously.
In Frostfirebolt, it increase the importance of each new tick (see #2).

4-- but we are already capped, isn't it ?
Crit is capped (28%) with intel proc (trinket, ...), the spec is built around this.
Haste is past GCD cap, passively. But the main part of our damage come from Bomb and it's result (see #1 & #2).

5-- will we also cap Frostbolt (at 100%) ?
It's already the case with proc/BL. Even Waterbolt can be capped with a Sinister proc while under BL effect.
But if thinks don't change, we will be near 80% or 90% haste passively in full T16 heroic.

6- a conclusion
For a Frost mage, Haste main use isn't to decrease cast time but to increase the number of proc. It's an interesting design.
It's easy to make convergence with how Fire work with Crit.

7- remerciements
Dragon/Polar -- for the Fire design comparison
Akraen -- for the haste before tick and Intel after tick

[huth]

Huh. I did not know the cleave of NT procced FB. I thought only the dot-tick did.

NT itself has a higher chance to proc BF than LB does.

[Keiyra]

NT itself has a higher chance to proc BF than LB does.

Aye, but not by a huge amount - and it also suffers from a higher likelihood to overwrite procs. NT will yield more procs total and most likely more procs missed, such that LB should not be "far" from it proc wise on average. I suppose those really interested would have to Sim and see if the extra procs from NT make up for the higher LB damage. And then follow it up with experience in raids. Ideally, if blizz did their job, it should be close match up for single target.

[Frostbites]

This was probably asked before, but which slot is our off tier for frost?

[Akraen]

Generally whichever heroic/thunderforged item you can get with haste on it.

Personally I'm wearing heroic crystal-claw gloves but if I can get a heroic thunderforged Robe of Midnight Down that'll be my off piece.

[Mastamage]

I used to rely on SimC a lot before I was capping stats but since then I've come to terms that the only way we can push this spec further is in the work that's being done on our own, and as of late in the mage community. I really hate knowing that I can play fire badly and still compete, whereas I screw up taking advantage of my procs as Frost and do downright awful. Honestly, I think Frost numbers really do show when you play effectively vs playing piss poor as fire and doing decent.

Let's keep working on the spec and hopefully we come up with some good discussions to help push Frost.

[Polarthief]

I'm guessing it's buried somewhere in here, but does anyone have the BiS list of gear for Frost? (I'd use AMR, but I don't trust it)

Also, is there a specific Haste cap I should stay under? (Due to GCD issues)

[Jaylol]

I'm guessing it's buried somewhere in here, but does anyone have the BiS list of gear for Frost? (I'd use AMR, but I don't trust it)

Also, is there a specific Haste cap I should stay under? (Due to GCD issues)

Don't think there's really a definite BiS list, especially this tier with all the TF stuff so no, there hasn't been. General consensus though seems to be either use the Ji-Kun chest or Durumu gloves for off piece. The rest is pretty straightforward I think.

As for haste capping, I think around 53%-54% haste raid-buffed, mastery starts to edge ahead of haste. Currently, I don't think that's obtainable unless you're in nearly full BiS gear and upgrades.

[Polarthief]

Don't think there's really a definite BiS list, especially this tier with all the TF stuff so no, there hasn't been. General consensus though seems to be either use the Ji-Kun chest or Durumu gloves for off piece. The rest is pretty straightforward I think.

As for haste capping, I think around 53%-54% haste raid-buffed, mastery starts to edge ahead of haste. Currently, I don't think that's obtainable unless you're in nearly full BiS gear and upgrades.

And where does crit lie? Is it still H > 22% C > M > C? I keep getting mixed results. (I know 28% is the "crit cap", but due to procs, 22ish seems more ideal so it doesn't get half wasted)

[Jaylol]

And where does crit lie? Is it still H > 22% C > M > C? I keep getting mixed results. (I know 28% is the "crit cap", but due to procs, 22ish seems more ideal so it doesn't get half wasted)

It's 22%-23%ish, yea. It's pretty easy to get to that point so you mostly just go for haste and mastery anyways.

[Polarthief]

It's 22%-23%ish, yea. It's pretty easy to get to that point so you mostly just go for haste and mastery anyways.

Alright, and for trinkets, I'm guessing Breath and Wush?

[jtmzac]

Alright, and for trinkets, I'm guessing Breath and Wush?

Yep.

Keep in mind a lot of us here are going for haste>mastery and just ignoring crit.

15697 haste is 1 second frostbolts with the meta proc but its such a huge amount of haste I doubt it will be a concern.

[Polarthief]

Yep.

Keep in mind a lot of us here are going for haste>mastery and just ignoring crit.

15697 haste is 1 second frostbolts with the meta proc but its such a huge amount of haste I doubt it will be a concern.

Yeah I'm doing H>M as well now but I was completely Fire until last week. I've noticed I have a significant DPS increase as Frost, so I decided to swap to it (because fuck RNG >_> plus it'll be nerfed in 5.4 so I might as well learn Frost better)

I'm at 15,179 Haste ATM and 6794 Crit (Told ReforgeLite to go to 6500 but I simply have too much due to my current gear)

Also, Wush gives too much Hit

[Jaylol]

Yep.

Keep in mind a lot of us here are going for haste>mastery and just ignoring crit.

15697 haste is 1 second frostbolts with the meta proc but its such a huge amount of haste I doubt it will be a concern.

I'm only ~1.1k off it and still have a lot of normal gear so it's easily reachable this tier, just not till very late.

Ignoring crit or going full mastery won't make a significant difference either way. I think it's +/- 500 or so dps. Some people think that going full mastery is the only way to go and if you don't go pure mastery you're seriously gimping yourself, but this is just flat out false lol.