Surprised that so few people are raiding

[SamR]

I'm sorry that you're so locked into seeing what you want to see that you read right past the part where I said "other games are other games" and went straight into attacking the examples I threw up. Besides the things I listed, hardcore gamers could just as easily go to hardcore raiding in other MMOs or hardcore gaming in console FPSs or hardcore bicycling for that matter. The point is that they will move on to whatever activity offers them the challenge they crave.

God. How shitty must your position be that you feel compelled to argue this way? Some of you seriously do a better job making my case than I do - based solely on the idiocy of your arguments. One can't help but assume that, when you hone in on one point out of 50, you have no qualms with the other 49; making me mostly right and you mostly wrong. Since selective argumentation is how you roll, I suppose I should point out that I'm not saying that that burn out is not a factor - just that I don’t believe it to be the main contribution. And, if you believe it is, you should make that point yourself rather than doing… well, whatever it is you’re trying to do here.

Looks like I hit a nerve.

I saw the "other games are other games" line for what it was. A dodge on your part because you made a stupid argument that you couldn't back up when called on.

You tried to make a point that hardcore raiders left WoW because it was becoming too casual. The only games you offered up were D3, TL2, and BL2. Casual single player games. Oh, and watching TV. Not the most hardcore of activities. That shoots your whole argument out of the water. If hardcore raiders left WoW to go play something more casual, it sounds like they burned out on hardcore content and wanted more casual content. Which is the exact opposite of what you were trying to argue.

It might surprise you, but all the points on either side in this thread have been rehashed on this forum a million times already. I picked on this argument of yours because it was the lowest hanging fruit. An obvious error of logic that's hard for you to defend so you're throwing personal attacks my way.

[Glorious Leader]

Looks like I hit a nerve!

I saw the "other games are other games" line for what it was. A dodge on your part because you made a stupid argument that you couldn't back up when called on.

You tried to make a point that hardcore raiders left WoW because it was becoming too casual. The only games you offered up were D3, TL2, and BL2. Casual single player games. Oh, and watching TV. Not the most hardcore of activities. That shoots your whole argument out of the water. If hardcore raiders left WoW to go play something more casual, it sounds like they burned out on hardcore content and wanted more casual content. Which is the exact opposite of what you were trying to argue.

It might surprise you, but all the points on either side in this thread have be rehashed on this forum a million times. I picked on this argument of yours because it was the lowest hanging fruit. An obvious error of logic that's hard for you to defend so you're throwing personal attacks my way.

I've been playing Borderlands 2 far more "hardcore" than mists currently because it's a much better game overall. It is possible to play all those games hardcore.

[SamR]

I've been playing Borderlands 2 far more "hardcore" than mists currently because it's a much better game overall. It is possible to play all those games hardcore.

Hardcore content isn't about what content you "can" play hardcore. You can do pet battles in WoW hardcore, too. The whole discussion about hardcore/casual is about hardcore content that forces you to play hardcore with no option to take it casual.

MoP is much more like BL2 and other games where you can play hardcore if you want(heroic raids). Or casual(normal and LFR).

What many posters on this thread want is a game which forces you to play hardcore with no option to play it casually.

[Firecrest]

Looks like I hit a nerve.

A nerve? Like I'm totally upset because you didn't fall into my trap when I asked you a stupid question expecting the standard answer for which I already had a pre-planned counter. Oh wait, no. That’s you.

It's always funny when people pull out the "umad?" card. No, I'm not mad. It's a fucking video game. The only thing that ever really irritates me on these forums is the constant reminders of the general idiocy of my species. That regularly fluctuates between frustrating and disappointing.

Hmm... Perhaps you did "hit a nerve". Your "argument" actually is a particularly great idiocy...

Yeah. Sure. I'll give it to you. The things you're saying are stupid enough to be annoying. Congratulations?

I saw the "other games are other games" line for what it was. A dodge on your part because you made a stupid argument that you couldn't back up when called on.

What I did was not fall into the trap of giving you the answer you were hoping for. You wanted "GW2 is going to kill WoW!" because that is a stupid answer. And I didn't give it to you… because it is a stupid answer. That is a dodge, I suppose. But not the kind you're talking about.

You tried to make a point that hardcore raiders left WoW because it was becoming too casual. The only games you offered up were D3, TL2, and BL2. Casual single player games. Oh, and watching TV. Not the most hardcore of activities. That shoots your whole argument out of the water. If hardcore raiders left WoW to go play something more casual, it sounds like they burned out on hardcore content and wanted more casual content. Which is the exact opposite of what you were trying to argue.

Now we're back to your selective argumentation. And I can't help but laugh at the fact you selectively ignored me already pointing this out to you.

Anyways, I threw out three random games as examples. I could have just as easily said Monopoly, Chess and Hopscotch. Somehow, you took that and twisted it into something you could tear down, presumably because there was nothing else that you could refute. There's a term for that, you know. And you’re presenting a classic case for it.

I'd relist the further examples I gave in my last post, but you've already ignored them once. I don't know that pointing it out again would matter. Your blinders are on pretty damn tight.

It might surprise you, but all the points on either side in this thread have been rehashed on this forum a million times already. I picked on this argument of yours because it was the lowest hanging fruit. An obvious error of logic that's hard for you to defend so you're throwing personal attacks my way.

Not much to say here other than that this was just too choice to leave aside. You're absurdly predictable. "Oh noes! He said I'm WRONG. Maybe if I say my wittle ego hurts, some mod will make him stop talking since I'm incapable of pulling my foot out of my mouth on my own." The things you’re saying are stupid. If you think that fact is a reflection of your personal character, well that’s on you.

Oh! Next do that thing where you say that you're done with this discussion because it's beneath you. That one's a good trick too.

[SamR]

Let's move away from the personal attacks and get back to the point of discussion, shall we?

Hardcore raiders leaving WoW to play casual games and to do casual activities like watching TV does not really suggest that they would have stayed in WoW if there was less casual content and more hardcore content in WoW.

[Gabbynator]

heart of fear was release too soon.Not everyone raid 20 hours+ per weeks.right now we raid 12 hours per weeks and we are 4/6 heroics mogu

[Firecrest]

Let's move away from the personal attacks and get back to the point of discussion, shall we?

Hardcore raiders leaving WoW to play casual games and to do casual activities like watching TV does not really suggest that they would have stayed in WoW if there was less casual content and more hardcore content in WoW.

Point proven.

[Glorious Leader]

I can't prove this of course but my suspicion is that the slower pace of gearing outside of the raid has dulled peoples enthusiasm for getting gear inside the raid. That isn't the only factor and I honestly can't prove it but when it occurred to me how slow and grindy it was to gear up outside of the raid it certainly dulled my enthusiasm to join even pug raids because I knew at the end of the day their was a pretty good chance I wouldn't be getting anything out of it. Even if I could fit a regular raid schedule into my life I'm not sure I would want to because christ even doing lfr once a week netted me no results. I ask my friends still in guild in the game in guild and yea they get nothing out of lfr. One guy has gone 4 weeks straight. That doesn't really push their enthusiasm to raid more. One of them was so pissed he died on the trash before the troll boss, couldn't get resurrected in time didn't get a even a bag when they killed it and still got saved...

They wanted players to go slowly well they got what they were after.

[DieFichte]

I'm very interested to know where you got the numbers on raidprogress from january, 12th 2011, because I can't find them.
Or what the f are you comparing here?

[Necomis]

Some in my guild HATE the daily grind. I got my DK to 90 and jumped right to my prot war to get to 90(which has been sitting for 2 years). So I haven't even bothered with dailies yet. Course last time I touched a raid was Ice Crown as I stopped playing WoW about 2 months after Cata came out. So I will get back to raiding in my own sweet time when I feel like it.

[SamR]

I can't prove this of course but my suspicion is that the slower pace of gearing outside of the raid has dulled peoples enthusiasm for getting gear inside the raid. That isn't the only factor and I honestly can't prove it but when it occurred to me how slow and grindy it was to gear up outside of the raid it certainly dulled my enthusiasm to join even pug raids because I knew at the end of the day their was a pretty good chance I wouldn't be getting anything out of it.

The pace is only slower compared to 4.3, though. When Cata launched, even getting full 346's took a long ass time because some of the heroics took so long to clear and a lot of LFD groups couldn't even finish them. Valor was easier to spend because you didn't need rep, but it was much harder to earn as the main source for non-raiders was daily heroics. You had weekly BH, but no valor from dailies and no valor from LFR.

My Druid has no reps at exalted besides Tillers and 1 piece of valor gear(that required honored rep only) and he's already at 470. Not that 470 is that great or anything, but it's plenty high enough to start doing MV normals if I wanted to. If I had focused more on the Druid instead of leveling another alt to 90 and getting her LFR-ready, the Druid's ilvl could be even higher.

[Glorious Leader]

The pace is only slower compared to 4.3, though. When Cata launched, even getting full 346's took a long ass time because some of the heroics took so long to clear and a lot of LFD groups couldn't even finish them. Valor was easier to spend because you didn't need rep, but it was much harder to earn as the only source for non-raiders was daily heroics. You had weekly BH, but no valor from dailies and no valor from LFR.

My Druid has no reps at exalted besides Tillers and 1 piece of valor gear(that required honored rep only) and he's already at 470. Not that 470 is that great or anything, but it's plenty high enough to start doing MV normals if I wanted to. If I had focused more on the Druid instead of leveling another alt to 90 and getting her LFR-ready, the Druid's ilvl could be even higher.

Not really. It's slower than even in starting cata because even at starting cata I could get rep epics without valor. Now the rep epics are really valor epics and the ones you bought with gold are gone. Valor wasn't harder to earn for me at any rate largely because those dungeons were not very hard contrary to popular belief and the rep epics would tide me over until I had enough valor to buy a piece. Getting valor from dailies doesn't make up for the fact that spending it is so slow this expansion even slower than at the start of cata. All signs point to slow slow slow gear obtaining outside of the raid.

I didn't say it was the only reason but I think it's a contributing factor.

[angelflavor]

My guild is starting to try to get people to raid. It's nice MoP came out when it did, but the big disadvantage is there are no holidays yet, so people have been slow to lvl and gear out. I'm sure at the end of Nov the numbers will pick up as a whole.

[DieFichte]

Not really. It's slower than even in starting cata

It's not that much slower:

In 36 days of MoP 25379 guilds have killed Stoneguards.
In 36 days of Cataclysm 27002 guilds have killed Magmaw.

Yes Cataclysm had holidays within these 36 days, but I think MoP has one lockout less. (Like, Magmaw first kill was on the release date ^.^)
In the same amount of raid lockouts, about 22000 guilds have killed magmaw.

Only for the numbers people, Morchok died to ~38000 guilds in 36 days, but that's not really something to compare.

[Glorious Leader]

It's not that much slower:

In 36 days of MoP 25379 guilds have killed Stoneguards.
In 36 days of Cataclysm 27002 guilds have killed Magmaw.

Yes Cataclysm had holidays within these 36 days, but I think MoP has one lockout less. (Like, Magmaw first kill was on the release date ^.^)
In the same amount of raid lockouts, about 22000 guilds have killed magmaw.

Only for the numbers people, Morchok died to ~38000 guilds in 36 days, but that's not really something to compare.

I was speaking about gear acquisition outside of the raid which is alot slower by comparison. The result of this is that their is another factor that is pushing people away from raiding because they haven't had the appetizer gear to get them hungry for more. It isn't a terrible big difference but so what? Blizzard wanted people to go slow they got what they were after and that means less people will be raiding.

Again I can't actually prove any of this and it isn't the only factor but if their actually concerned they will look into all avenues. I don't think they are all that concerned. In part because alot of those people probably just shifted to LFR. Where they think they have a better chance at reward even if it is sub par and don't want the hassle of being in a raiding guild.

[SamR]

Not really. It's slower than even in starting cata because even at starting cata I could get rep epics without valor. Now the rep epics are really valor epics and the ones you bought with gold are gone. Valor wasn't harder to earn for me at any rate largely because those dungeons were not very hard contrary to popular belief and the rep epics would tide me over until I had enough valor to buy a piece. Getting valor from dailies doesn't make up for the fact that spending it is so slow this expansion even slower than at the start of cata. All signs point to slow slow slow gear obtaining outside of the raid.

I didn't say it was the only reason but I think it's a contributing factor.

I think your view of early Cata is a bit skewed because it sounds like you ran with people you knew in the dungeons. LFD at Cata launch was not pretty. 45 minute DPS queues and there were times I had to just abandon the group and end my night with nothing to show for it because the group of randoms just couldn't beat some encounter.

Valor came in very slowly. You got valor only for the first completion of the day and just justice after that. So even if you had a whole day Saturday to play, you would only get one daily heroic worth of valor anyway. And tabard rep isn't that great when you're in a group that can't beat Cora because half the group brainfarts on beams.

[Glorious Leader]

I think your view of early Cata is a bit skewed because it sounds like you ran with people you knew in the dungeons. LFD at Cata launch was not pretty. 45 minute DPS queues and there were times I had to just abandon the group and end my night with nothing to show for it because the group of randoms just couldn't beat some encounter.

Valor came in very slowly. You got valor only for the first completion of the day and just justice after that. So even if you had a whole day Saturday to play, you would only get one daily heroic worth of rep anyway. And tabard rep isn't that great when you're in a group that can't beat Cora because half the group brainfarts on beams.

I did actually alot and it was fantastic. It is possibly one of the things I miss most about previous expansion. Running dungeons with them isn't happening because well nobody needs it. We all got our 463 and then looked around and said welp.. now what? We don't pvp, we don't like dailies and aside from our lfr que/sha we had jack shit left to do. They enjoy the Poke battles though and some of the other non progression oriented stuff and that's fantastic, I'm happy they're enjoying themselves in the game. The dungeon ques in the past rewarded my little stargate sg1 team and I and it was so good. Perhaps to good and in need of some refinement, I think that's a case that can be reasonably made but not the butchery it's received.

Having said that Valor didn't come in slowly by any stretch of the imagination. I pugged on my alts early in cata as well and still got lots of valor from them and rep from them. In any event I ended my nights now in warcraft with nothing to show for it.. unless I did dailies. In fact even if I do lfr I often end my night with nothing to show for it except 90 valor which I could only spend through dailies. Gearing up outside a raiding guild this expansion is so much less rewarding than it's ever been in this game save for vanilla when what you could do was even more limited. That's at least in part why people aren't raiding I think. They haven't had that appetizer.

I should be clear I think lots of other factors play into this and none of them really exists in a vacuum. WoWs population is aging and probably many of the former long time raiders have wives and kids and houses. Many left during the lull in cataclysm. Many went to try other games and other things. Ultimately though the broader point is that Blizzard wanted people to take things slowly and built up systems that encouraged this. In my case I have outside responsibilities and raiding isn't really conducive to my schedule. I could try and fit it in and make the effort if I thought the reward was good enough or if I felt hungry enough for it. The truth is without that extra bit outside the raid theirs really no motivation or enthusiasm on my part to do more. In the end Blizzard got what they were after. They slowed people down. Some of us have just stopped entirely.

[Wildtree]

Your kidding right? transmog gear sir you can always keep your epics for looks why do people keep forgeting that it's not a total waste of time then.

I am not kidding, and I couldn't care less about transmog gear.. And many many people are just like me...
For my part, It's starting with that I dislike most gear anyway, since it lacks real feel.
There's nicer stuff to get from quest greens. The gear / weapon looks went down the drain years ago when they buffed the size of the weapons..
Besides the point that I couldn't even save anything, because I don't have space for it. I really don't want to. it gets disenchanted and that's it.

---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 07:31 PM ----------

I guess that depends on your definition of a "time sink".

From my perspective, a time sink = something you do which is not fun, but just takes up a lot of time. aka - a time killer with little/no benefit.

If it is fun, I don't really consider it a time sink. /shrug.

That's how time sink is defined.. Time sink... sink hole.... quicksand.... negative terms.
It takes a couple hours or three for practice football/soccer on the field, or some other sports. That's not a time sink.

Playing WoW isn't a time sink either. Forcing yourself to do something you don't like in the game, that's a time sink. And we see serious committed raiding as such.

[Drakesong]

the rest is too busy botting in BGs

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Not surprised. In the first month of Cata was #4 geared Holy paladin for Alliance on Shandris.

Players buy the game but many don't raid until the nerfs come. It's like with Firelands, as soon as the nerfs came, then folks came out of the woodwork to raid. -_-