Do you include 10 man raids in the World First race?

[fulkin]

To be fair it should be two seperate races, just wowprogress not seperating them on their main page

[Mr Goodkat]

If 10man is such a complete joke as a lot of people say. Then why are 12 25man guilds at least 3/6, but in 10 man paragon are the only ones that killed the third boss?

Because the skill level, determination and time commitment in the best 25 man raids in the world are simply a different class compared to any "top" 10 man raid. sorry, there's no other way to say it. Honestly, i'm not surprised that paragon completely destroyed all other 10 man guilds. that's an a team playing in a b league.

and yes, 10 man are easier. there was a discussion going on lately and i want to post 2 quotes.the first by windrey and the second by me.

This argument is bullshit and a total perversion of the numbers, and it's the same argument 10M players have been spewing out of ignorance the entire time.

The reason it's bullshit is because the DPS requirements placed by Blizzard are grossly in favor of 10m.
I don't have the *exact* numbers in front of me but:

H-Baelroc prenerf:
The 10M set up of 2 tank, 2 healers, and 6 DPS. Assuming your 2 tanks could push 15-20k DPS at that time, it required the 6 DPS to push something like 24-26k DPS.
meanwhile
The 25M set up of 2 tanks, 5 healers, and 18 DPS. Assuming your 2 tanks could push 20k DPS at the time, it required your 18 DPS to push 31-32k DPS.

H-Ultraxion was the same with:
25M - 18DPS pushing 39-41k DPS
10M - 6 DPS pushing 32k DPS

When you look at these numbers, the thing I would say is that not only is each and every one of our 18DPS vital, but each and everyone of them has to be BETTER, has to play better than your 6 DPS.

This kind of gross favoritism in the DPS check is the reason why 25M are forced to do things like 3 heal Heroic Rag, 3heal or pet tank Heroic Ultraxion.
Who has more responsibility? The 2 healers who have to keep 10 people up while H-Rag hits for moderate damage? Or the 3 healers that have to keep 25 people up while H-Rag hits for heavy damage? How would you feel if you were one of those 3 healers and you saw all these 10m players qq'ing about healing H-Rag10, and claiming that their responsibility is too high?

One of our 18 DPS dies on H-Rag in p3? "It's a wipe, fuck it. Who cares if we have 3 rezzes still, everyone jump in lava."

- "Oh but what about the raid buffs? 10m don't always have them!"
Not only did Blizzard spread the buffs around to most classes, but most progression 10M raiding guilds will make sure they set up so they do have them, but fine, lets say you are missing 5% crit, or 2% damage (which doesn't exists anymore)... are you really going to believe that missing one buff is going to magically up your 26k DPS to 32K or up your 32k DPS to 41k?

Now, if your only experience with 25M raiding was pre-Cata or being carried by a 25M guild that already had a fight on farm, then yes, I can understand why you have that impression, but I'm telling you, it's a wrong impression.

I have done every heroic raid fight in Cata in both 25 and 10m. Sure, Magmaw, V&T were impossible on 10 for the 1st month because of the lack of scaling. Maloriak had the bloods bug with too much hp for like a week? After that, EVERY SINGLE FIGHT is vastly harder on 25M for tanks to healers to DPS.

Now how do you save 25 man?
- Give 10M easy access to all buffs 25m would have (more or less done). Probably give resto shaman, enhance shaman, and hell why not warlocks access to 10% spell haste.
- Then balance out the numbers and not make 25m harder, (and it's a pretty simple math problem).

EXAMPLE:
We expect 2 tanks to do 50k DPS each, and we want the DPS check to be around 95k for each DPS with a 5min enrage.
Then 10M should be looking at: (50k*2 + 95k*6)300seconds = 201M HP
While 25M should be looking at: (50k*2 + 95k*18)300 seconds = 543M HP
Now I don't know why Blizzard couldn't do this kind of 5th grade math while creating the HP on their bosses, but with current trend I'm sure the 25m will end up looking at a boss with something like 624M (which is 110k DPS per person).

some famous quotes by 10 man raiders

1. "25 man raids just carry 15 bad people and use their best 10 players to tackle 10 man content"

wow, simply brain-dead. do you really believe that shit? fyi, every raid, be it 10 or 25 man, has a normal distribution of player skill, the only difference is mean average skill and the deviation of said distribution; in top 10 guilds, the difference between best and worst is very small while in more casual guilds tends to be higher. this is pretty self-explanatory, player skill is an absolute must in the best guilds; yes, being a nice person helps nonetheless, but without the skill: here's the way out. the more casual it gets the more important other factors get (friendship, time to raid etc)
as archimodos has pointed out 25 man raid presentation is highest in the top segment and almost non-existent in the real casual segment. actually 10 man raids relatively carry a lot more people! yes. let that sink into your brain.
but let's get back to the original statement, since when does picking your 10 best raiders equal a functional, let alone an optimal 10 man setup? please enlighten me.

2. " i did both and 10 man is harder/ has the same difficulty"

so do you want to say that while you were doing 10 man raids with your main you also had an alt, doing 25 man raids? at the same time? or does your 25 man raiding experience encompass such heroic feats like firelands after the 25% nerf with ds gear? or ds with the 30% debuff?
most people spouting that nonsense are either lying (my personal guess) or fail to grasp the concept of a valid comparison.
However, a lot of 25 man raiders do 10 man content at the same time with alts. I did it too for some time with a char I had less experience and lower ilvl. The numbers are so off. With the exception of warmaster p 1 and some parts of madness (and no, hagara is simply not that hard as 10 man raiders make it out to be), the fights do not compare, ultraxion and yorsashj could be 2 different modes. Same with firelands, the last 3 bosses were simply a different league in 25 man mode. Before you say:”impale, madness!” just check the numbers: 840000 dmg in 10 man vs 1200000 in 25. This brings forth the next statement

3. “25 man raiders have more cds”

Thanks for stating the obvious; care to take a closer look? Raid dmg (per player) and tank dmg is significantly higher in 25 man. If you don’t believe me, check the dungeon journal. Or more bluntly: cds are a necessity in 25 man and a luxury in 10 man raids. Why? Same reasoning as with the buffs, if cds were a necessity in 10 man raiding line ups would be simply to strict, something that blizzard does not want, so they tune accordingly.

I think tier 11 was the only content that was balanced. Not on a boss basis. There were harder fights in 10 man mode and harder ones in 25 man mode. This is also reflected by the rankings on wowprogress; the best guilds on a server during wrath were usually the best in t11 too, irrespectively of raid size. but starting with firelands, there were suddenly many 10 man guilds (which up-to-then killed bosses way later or not at all) on par with “historically” way better guilds that still raid 25 man. Sure a few got probably better, but all of them? Yeah sure



as GC pointed out. Most players choose the easier path if the rewards are the same. but I guess a person whose name shall not be revealed will still argue that this basic behaviour does not exist in wow. As it is now, the huge majority of 25 man raiders do not take 10 man raids seriously. if t11 was the norm and tunings would be nearly the same (same dps and hps requirements, same incoming dmg, spatial distribution, and buffs spread out a little bit more) things would be different. Go ahead and call it whatever you want, but you won’t change that by simply saying: “10 man is harder because I do it”.

oh for that genius who claimed that kin raiders had only to compete against 3000 other guilds while the best 10 man raids had to compete against 45000 other guilds. sry, use your brain. do you really think these 45000 teams represent the same quality (skill, determination and time contribution) compared to the 3000 25 man teams?

Let me stress 2 important points again in case you do not bother reading it.

1. the average 25 man player has more skill, invests more time and is more determined than the average 10 man player. yeah, i hear the outrage. why?

25 man representation is the highest in the top 100 (alomst 50% of all guilds) and non-existant in the real casual segment. and 10 man raids carry relatively alot more people. read point 1 in my quote.

2. a 10 man raider comparing difficulties between raid sizes is ridiculous, because he or she never did the 10 and 25 man content at the same time, however 25 man raiders often raid 10 man with an alt at the same time. read point 2 in my quote

for all these "10 man are harder" people: let me ask you a question. do you really think blizzard would make 10 man raids, a casual player's choice, harder? really? all those people who qq about how hard cata dungeons and raid normal modes were.

25 man raids are intentionally tuned harder and the real reason has nothing to do with buffs or anything like that, that's a smokescreen. all the best guilds raid 25 man (up to paragon's decision to downsize). so tune it hard that these guys have something to do (just compare how these guys felt about ragnaros hm and deathwing hm). for some reasons blizzard thinks they need these poster guys. and tune 10 mans easier to keep the casual majority happy and give them the same loot and call it "equal" to not hurt their sense of accomplishment.

these 2 raid modes target 2 different populations. of coures the best 10 man raids are not made up of casuals and there might be even a few casual 25 man raids, but it is the general principle. that's why the huge majority of progress 25 man raiders do not take 10 man raids seriously. call it whatever you want and pat yourself on the back, but you will not change that.

[Gelirion]

It's a difficult one, but I have voted no: it's harder to find 25 exceptional players than only 10.

[lakhesis]

I'd acknowledge a 10 kill as a technical world first, but regard 25s as the "real" race.

There is invariably some content that's going to be harder in 10 simply because of the fewer & less diverse GCD uses a raid has in any given second, but generally speaking the combination of difficulty & traditional emphasis makes 25 man the more competitive size.

Regardless, the two sizes will never be equal at that level of competition & should not be compared to each other. Pick one or the other, or follow both separately imo. Hence I'd argue that there are two world firsts.

[Thetruth1400]

I think that poll needs a third option, which happens to be my option.

I consider 10 man and 25 man to be two different beasts. In that line of thinking, I do consider 10 man world first and viable, but only in terms of 10 man raids. The balance, although it tries to be, is never equal. One fight may be harder in 10 man, another in 25 man. That's why they're different to me.

So as far as I'm concerned, Dream / Paragon is the worlds first 10 man raid team. As of now, there hasn't been a 25 man world first.

[Moshots]

Im not sure if you're just mentally retarded, trolling, or are just saying that to make your raid team seem relevent. Whatever, the reason - of course there are more 10 mans compared to 25 you fucking spastic - BECAUSE 10M IS EASIER. You cant compare it in terms of % thats just a load of bollocks - 25m is always going to have better progression because they are the more hardcore players than 10m. Get your facts straight. I killed 4/6 10m normal on the second night of release. first night we were wiping on the dogs 25m for the whole night. Second week comes, first boss died, wiping on 2nd all night. 10m is SO FUCKING EASY compared to 25m.

that sounds more like retarded tanks not know what to do with 4 dogs. Since 25 man has been called easier than 10 for stone guards from multiple guilds. Hell on heroic if your dps is high enough you dont even need to blow up its so stupid.

[Tharkkun]

Let me stress 2 important points again in case you do not bother reading it.

1. the average 25 man player has more skill, invests more time and is more determined than the average 10 man player. yeah, i hear the outrage. why?

25 man representation is the highest in the top 100 (alomst 50% of all guilds) and non-existant in the real casual segment. and 10 man raids carry relatively alot more people. read point 1 in my quote.

2. a 10 man raider comparing difficulties between raid sizes is ridiculous, because he or she never did the 10 and 25 man content at the same time, however 25 man raiders often raid 10 man with an alt at the same time. read point 2 in my quote

for all these "10 man are harder" people: let me ask you a question. do you really think blizzard would make 10 man raids, a casual player's choice, harder? really? all those people who qq about how hard cata dungeons and raid normal modes were.

25 man raids are intentionally tuned harder and the real reason has nothing to do with buffs or anything like that, that's a smokescreen. all the best guilds raid 25 man (up to paragon's decision to downsize). so tune it hard that these guys have something to do (just compare how these guys felt about ragnaros hm and deathwing hm). for some reasons blizzard thinks they need these poster guys. and tune 10 mans easier to keep the casual majority happy and give them the same loot and call it "equal" to not hurt their sense of accomplishment.

these 2 raid modes target 2 different populations. of coures the best 10 man raids are not made up of casuals and there might be even a few casual 25 man raids, but it is the general principle. that's why the huge majority of progress 25 man raiders do not take 10 man raids seriously. call it whatever you want and pat yourself on the back, but you will not change that.

1. ROTFL. That's a great opinion. You have no idea how much skill, preparation and determination that a 10 or 25 man puts in aside from your own guild, if you even raid for world 1st. If you don't you're FOS. 25man raiding current represents less than 20% of all players raiding right now. I think it was 12% actually.

2. I raided both 25man and 10man in Cata and Wotlk. In Cataclysm it was very balanced. Of course though when we took our 10 best players from the 25man and learned 10 man bosses at the end of the week they were easier. Had we taken our fails it would've been just as hard.

Your other observation regarding alts doing 10 man should be obvious to even you. You can't do the same raid twice in one week so your only option is using an ALT. Duh. You really think Blizzard would purposely make 10man easier? Every guild would switch to the path of least resistance and farm every boss then return to 25man for the glory kills.

It was easier in WOTLK but it was also a whole set of ilevel lower for that very reason. Lesser challenge for weaker loot. Once it was normalized the challenge become equal.

The fact that you can't take a 10man seriously is a character flaw. Blizzard changed it, balanced it, normalized the achievements and said game on.

[Deleted]

I raided both in cata. 25 man was harder.

I raided cata on heroic in worlds top 25 guild, 1st tier of cata - 25 on most fights was a complete joke opossite to 10 man. 10man cataclysm 1st tier raiding was true and last good raiding since TBC. /truestory bro

[Mexa]

Well, no. 10 man world first is the first to kill a 10 man boss. 25 man has more prestige and i would not compare a 10 man world first with a 25 man world first.

[Tharkkun]

It's a difficult one, but I have voted no: it's harder to find 25 exceptional players than only 10.

So if you were handed 25 exceptional players and 10 exceptional players would you accept that they are the same? Blizzard doesn't breed players so that doesn't get factored into balance.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 04:30 PM ----------

Nefarian, Maloriak and Cho'gall all were tougher on 10man. We took our 10man and struggled, then beat Cho'gall in 3 tries on 25m. If it truly was harder 15 others wouldn't have learned it that fast...

[Rawke]

I find world firsts to be pointless achieves.

[Appletini]

I was in a top strict 10 guild in WOTLK when 10s had a lower ilvl and GuildOx tracked "strict 10" and the competition there was pretty fierce. I think because of that, I respect ten man just as much as twenty-five man.

It really comes down to whether the fights are tuned correctly in both difficulties. In some fights, ten man can be much harder, in some fights it can be easier, solely because of mechanics.

So, to me, I would take both ten and twenty-five man world firsts as important markers.

Somebody above said "ten mans were easier in WOTLK". They weren't. In fact, I'd argue that there were numerous hard mode achievements that were harder in strict ten man. The real problem in WOTLK was that dudes rolling into ten man hard modes in 25-man gear thought it was easier because they out-geared it.

If tens were so easy back then, you'd see a hell of a lot more people with "Herald of the Titans" title. Very few people could ever beat Algalon ten man with 226 or weaker armor/232 or weaker weapons.

[Deleted]

Personally i ignore 10 man kills even though i'am not raiding.

[Gelirion]

So if you were handed 25 exceptional players and 10 exceptional players would you accept that they are the same?

Individual players are the same, but praise go to the guild, not to individual players. And it's harder for a guild, as a community, to put togheter a strong team of 25 players. Or, put it other way: Method can try WF 10men but Paragon can't try WF 25. Individual players from Paragon might be better, but as a guild Method or Blood Legion are stronger in this moment.

[Draahl]

I really dont like that they havnt seperated the two different raids(10 and 25 man). From my own experience its alot easier getting 10 great people together then 25 great people together. Im not saying its proof or anything just saying that from my point of view 25 man is the real world first.

[Pandacally]

http://manaflask.com/en/article/2034...-and-killshots

Wow 25man is so hard... fucking mage is such a scrub it's crazy, just stands in his rune for 6 min, screws up his rotation on a regular basis, makes like 20k dps less than a good mage and still is top5 of dps... just says everything about overall quality of blood legion dps...
In 10m, nobody could carry such a fucktard mage sorry...

[Draahl]

http://manaflask.com/en/article/2034...-and-killshots

Wow 25man is so hard... fucking mage is such a scrub it's crazy, just stands in his rune for 6 min, screws up his rotation on a regular basis, makes like 20k dps less than a good mage and still is top5 of dps... just says everything about overall quality of blood legion dps...
In 10m, nobody could carry such a fucktard mage sorry...

I see where your coming from, tho Gara'jal is a joke in itself. Probably the easiest boss in the entire raid.

[Pandacally]

I see where your coming from, tho Gara'jal is a joke in itself. Probably the easiest boss in the entire raid.

obviously not for 10m, considering how many guilds are stuck there...

[Shunda]

Regardless of difficulty or raid size, killing it first means you're first hands down. Second place is the first loser, simple as that.

[Unknown User]

To be fair it should be two seperate races, just wowprogress not seperating them on their main page

I prefer guildox.com myself. They have 10, 25, and 10+25 rankings.
Although for some reason they have Method listed as a 10 man guild atm. Don't know if it's an update bug or if they truly switched to 10 man for their Elegon kill.