Jaina and Dalaran in 5.1 [Heavy lore spoilers]

[Chaochamp]

Pretty sure I just experienced a loregasm after listening to the Jaina video.

So excited.

[Trassk]

Thelan was personally sent by Aethas. He may have been acting on Garrosh's orders and not Aethas', but he was a sunreaver agent.

That doesn't hold anything against Aethas, he didn't know one of his own would two time him.

[Landin55]

Well, in the part with the Sunreavers, the Thelen guy wasn't even a Sunreaver proper; so in a way they were made to look bad not once, but twice. Which I kinda feel bad for. They seemed more a victim of being at the wrong place at the wrong time twice, in a sense. And true, she didn't want to drown them or anything like that.

I actually wonder what some of the guys like Khadgar going to say about someone just up and saying ''Welp! We're part of a faction now! Just because!'

I play both Horde and Alliance(my guild is Horde, I honestly would play whatever side they moved to, I really don't care), but I'd honestly have LESS problems with, say, the Alliance taking over the Barrens that I do someone just saying a neutral faction now belongs to one of the sides. I can't say why, but something rubs me wrong about it. Hell, I'd personally rather the Alliance take over the Barrens, Feralas AND take back Dustwallow instead of them moving a neutral faction over. I guess since I can't stand the war anyway, my neutral factions are the ones where I sorta find 'solace', so when they start taking sides it irritates me far more than entire zones being lost or won, which I don't really care about. (I'll rail just as hard if another neutral faction decides to become Horde, since that'll give me *even less* sane people to hang out with. :P)

Well the Kirirn Tor is part of that special Neutral factions group...the ones that are neutral because they have both factions as members. So when the Horde side fucks up twice, yes it is Aethas' fault for not keeping a closer eye on his men especially after Theramoore, what is the Kirin Tor suppose to do? Sit by and let it keep happening? And like you said...she is only killing the violent ones, those that surrender actually get mercy... The whole situation could have been much, much more worse.

[Florena]

Actually she is killing sunreavers that stand against her treatment of them, so really, its not different then what the alliance did with the orcs years before.

She's killing those that take up arms. I'm not saying she's neccisarily doing the right thing, but the point people are making is this isn't her saying 'all blood elves must DIE!' Keep in mind this is the second time in a short period of time sunreavers have betrayed her even if Aethas isn't involved.

[Falrinn]

Well, in the part with the Sunreavers, the Thelen guy wasn't even a Sunreaver proper; so in a way they were made to look bad not once, but twice. Which I kinda feel bad for. They seemed more a victim of being at the wrong place at the wrong time twice, in a sense. And true, she didn't want to drown them or anything like that.

I actually wonder what some of the guys like Khadgar going to say about someone just up and saying ''Welp! We're part of a faction now! Just because!'

I play both Horde and Alliance(my guild is Horde, I honestly would play whatever side they moved to, I really don't care), but I'd honestly have LESS problems with, say, the Alliance taking over the Barrens that I do someone just saying a neutral faction now belongs to one of the sides. I can't say why, but something rubs me wrong about it. Hell, I'd personally rather the Alliance take over the Barrens, Feralas AND take back Dustwallow instead of them moving a neutral faction over. I guess since I can't stand the war anyway, my neutral factions are the ones where I sorta find 'solace', so when they start taking sides it irritates me far more than entire zones being lost or won, which I don't really care about. (I'll rail just as hard if another neutral faction decides to become Horde, since that'll give me *even less* sane people to hang out with. :P)

The neutral faction we are talking about is Dalaran. Dalaran was one of the original members of the Alliance and even in WoW has always been heavily Alliance leaning. Aside from the Violet Eye, it wasn't until WotLK they became neutral at all and even then it was supposed to be in reaction to Nexus war, which is now long over.

I agree that the war storyline can be kind of goofy at time, but in the absence of a world-ending threat, it makes sense for some neutral groups to at least temporarily pick a side.

[Landin55]

That doesn't hold anything against Aethas, he didn't know one of his own would two time him.

Thats right, and Jaina kinda let that go, then they used the portals to attack Darn apparently, and now Jaina is kinda taking it as the fool me once...kind of deal.

[Florena]

That doesn't hold anything against Aethas, he didn't know one of his own would two time him.

What I'm arguing against here is the idea that Thelon 'doesn't count' as a sunreaver. Aethas isn't responsible for what Thelan did, but Aethas does repeat the same mistake when his own men once again betray Jaina to aid the Horde with this Bell business.

[Azaael]

Exactly. The Sunreavers were still the victims here, made to look guilty. I guess as the scenario plays out we'll see how the Horde manage to get into Darnassus(I'd like to know how they got past that debuff that I couldn't even fly over, and why the Sunreavers couldn't give me special protection. ) And I still feel Jaina went a little too far, especially given again how she managed to overcome what is technically WORSE. I just don't want to see Jaina go from what was looking like a good character with a nice strong will and triumph over adversary to another damn cardboard warmonger who gets bent out of shape and assumes the whole lot of them are behind it(like Wrynn used to do, like blaming the entirety of the Horde for something *one small group of traitors in one of the factions did.*) It's too early to say, of course, I just don't want them to go this route.

I'm guessing that Garrosh lies and deceives, or forces-or all three, hell-his way to get the Sunreavers to get him into Darnassus.

Ahh well, at the end of this all and Garrosh's head is on a pike, I just want my cross-faction groups so we can start recruiting for 25s easier. :P

EDIT: You know, freakin' Alliance now has a gargantuan blue dragon on their side whose boinking the KT leader. Just sic his ass on Garrosh, have him make a snack out of the upjumped ogre or just stomp on him and call it a day already.

[Landin55]

Actually she is killing sunreavers that stand against her treatment of them, so really, its not different then what the alliance did with the orcs years before.

No, the ones that take arms up to stop her from arresting them for letting two crimes go within their faction. Twisting words is fun isn't it?

[Florena]

Exactly. The Sunreavers were still the victims here, made to look guilty. I guess as the scenario plays out we'll see how the Horde manage to get into Darnassus(I'd like to know how they got past that debuff that I couldn't even fly over, and why the Sunreavers couldn't give me special protection. ) And I still feel Jaina went a little too far, especially given again how she managed to overcome what is technically WORSE. I also wonder how Kalecgos things-he's part of the Kirin Tor as well and I wonder if he just goes along with Jaina, if he cares that he's suddenly Alliance now or what. I just don't want to see Jaina go from what was looking like a good character with a nice strong will and triumph over adversary to another damn cardboard warmonger who gets bent out of shape and assumes the whole lot of them are behind it(like Wrynn used to do, like blaming the entirety of the Horde for something *one small group of traitors in one of the factions did.*) It's too early to say, of course, I just don't want them to go this route.

I'm guessing that Garrosh lies and deceives, or forces-or all three, hell-his way to get the Sunreavers to get him into Darnassus.

Ahh well, at the end of this all and Garrosh's head is on a pike, I just want my cross-faction groups so we can start recruiting for 25s easier. :P

As another poster pointed out, it's probably not Darnassus but the Temple of the Red Crane where these events take place.

[Landin55]

Exactly. The Sunreavers were still the victims here, made to look guilty. I guess as the scenario plays out we'll see how the Horde manage to get into Darnassus(I'd like to know how they got past that debuff that I couldn't even fly over, and why the Sunreavers couldn't give me special protection. ) And I still feel Jaina went a little too far, especially given again how she managed to overcome what is technically WORSE. I just don't want to see Jaina go from what was looking like a good character with a nice strong will and triumph over adversary to another damn cardboard warmonger who gets bent out of shape and assumes the whole lot of them are behind it(like Wrynn used to do, like blaming the entirety of the Horde for something *one small group of traitors in one of the factions did.*) It's too early to say, of course, I just don't want them to go this route.

I'm guessing that Garrosh lies and deceives, or forces-or all three, hell-his way to get the Sunreavers to get him into Darnassus.

Ahh well, at the end of this all and Garrosh's head is on a pike, I just want my cross-faction groups so we can start recruiting for 25s easier. :P

EDIT: You know, freakin' Alliance now has a gargantuan blue dragon on their side whose boinking the KT leader. Just sic his ass on Garrosh, have him make a snack out of the upjumped ogre and call it a day already.

It wasn't protection, they apparently let the Horde use the Darn portal because that was the only way in.

[Zharikov]

I should point out to everyone saying that Dalaran was originally part of the Alliance that it was part of the /old/, now defunct, Alliance. Silvermoon and Undercity have more to do with that alliance than Stormwind does. Dalaran is half-elven architechture, and the name itself is elven. It was a city founded by elves and humans, and I should also point out high elves only make up 10% of the remaining elven population.

[delus]

At the end of the Theron speech he says he may consider old alliances if the interest of the Horde conflicts with those of his people. He literally means the Alliance and he is stating that he is willing to do whatever it takes to secure a future for his people, even throwing the Horde to the wolves.

[Florena]

The 'old' alliance just sort of evolved into the new one. There was no meeting that I know of where a completely new Alliance was formed together. Back in Vanilla they were Alliance friendly, and Nethergarde, controlled by Dalaran, is an Alliance fort. There were quests as Forsaken to kill the Dalaran agents in Silverpine. It wasn't until BC with the violet eye that they started neutral tendencies, then in Wrath they went full on neutral.

[Immitis]

I should point out to everyone saying that Dalaran was originally part of the Alliance that it was part of the /old/, now defunct, Alliance. Silvermoon and Undercity have more to do with that alliance than Stormwind does. Dalaran is half-elven architechture, and the name itself is elven. It was a city founded by elves and humans, and I should also point out high elves only make up 10% of the remaining elven population.

stormwind was part of the old alliance as well, sure it got destroyed but varian father was still king so its not like the leadership changed up and its a whole new race of humans

[Verdugo]

No, the ones that take arms up to stop her from arresting them for letting two crimes go within their faction. Twisting words is fun isn't it?

Crimes according to who. Humans? Night Elves? Gnomes? Their laws mean nothing to those outside the alliance.

[Suikoden]

If he ends up being the one...

1) Leading the Horde Forces against Garrosh

2) Killing Garrosh

3) Blowing up Orgrimmar and turning his back to the explosion then switching Silvermoon's place with Orgrimmar...

I will lawl. So. Fucking. Hard.

Oh god the lolercoasters if 3 happened.

[Azaael]

Hmm. About the High Elves/Dalaran and the like-I do wonder if this is what Lor'themar means.

I mean okay, to take the other side for a moment-it wasn't the entire Alliance that betrayed them. It was *one racist bastard* and his regiment(who are long dead) who did it. If they can get past this(and the High Elves can get past their dislike of the Blood Elves due to their stuff) then yeah, something can happen there.

Though I suppose it mirrors real life close enough. When a country or whatnot has a group that does something wrong, people blame the whole lot that lives there.

[Landin55]

Crimes according to who. Humans? Night Elves? Gnomes? Their laws mean nothing to those outside the alliance.

Kirin Tor laws....Made by Jaina...beat that!

[Verdugo]

Kirin Tor laws....Made by Jaina...beat that!

Made by human. Again, worthless.