Prot gear question.

[Deleted]

So I should tell my GM and MT whos topping logs that some randoms on this forum told me that I should make him aware of that his stat priorities are wrong? You need to do a better job if you want to convince me/him. ^^

I do not really care what you do. It does not matter to me, if you want a sub-par geared tank fine.
You have no reason to trust me or anyone else. You know, he could atleast try it.

As I said earlier.

Dodge enchant wrist
Int gem legs
Panda steps on boots even though PoJ specced
wrong boots from sha

Thats 4 quite simple mistakes in his gear that even a freshly dinged paladin tank could spot out. Which for me is enough for him to take reconsideration if his spec and gearing.



Your paladin tank is probably great at playing his class, his gearing is working fine, he is performing good etc, but he could perform even better. I see no point in not optimizing the gear because "I have cleared 6/6 MGV HC".

I could run tour de france on my old ass bike, but I would probably do better with a racing bike.

[Deleted]

Wow, drop the attitude. How hard is it to understand that you just can't tell people what's better/not without proving it? There's no meat in your argument, bro.

And I've played Pala main for years. Rerolled to Lock for MoP because we already had two good Palas in our raid and Rets are not really topping logs atm. I'm still raiding on my Pala more than you are with our alt raid.

You called me out on my progress. I called you out on your priorities.

As Firefly33 just said above me, he's done quite a few things wrong that even a freshly dinged Paladin could see.

Also, please don't compare me to your guild leader who is gemming intellect as a Protection Paladin. Fanks.

[Deleted]

And what you say about him topping logs I think is a bit of an overstatement. He only did 46k dps on Feng HC, a fight were I easily pull 60k dps, think I finished on 72k recount dps this week, which I guess would be around 70k WoL dps, sadly did not WoL. How I am doing that in not even remotely close to the same gear as your tank ( Not dropping any plate for us and coins hate me ). So he has a good 10 item levels average higher and pulls 25k less dps. It even looks like your paladin was tanking the boss alot more than the DK so he would be quite good on vengeance.

[Bonkura]

I do not really care what you do. It does not matter to me, if you want a sub-par geared tank fine.
You have no reason to trust me or anyone else. You know, he could atleast try it.

As I said earlier.

Dodge enchant wrist
Int gem legs
Panda steps on boots even though PoJ specced
wrong boots from sha

Thats 4 quite simple mistakes in his gear that even a freshly dinged paladin tank could spot out. Which for me is enough for him to take reconsideration if his spec and gearing.



Your paladin tank is probably great at playing his class, his gearing is working fine, he is performing good etc, but he could perform even better. I see no point in not optimizing the gear because "I have cleared 6/6 MGV".

I could run tour de france on my old ass bike, but I would probably do better with a racing bike.

I'll ask him about the odd enchanting (and int gem, lol), thanks.

Regarding drops I have no clue what's going on during our raids, he's been rolling on everything vs our DK and even told him to give him items he lost roll on. The DK is a pushover, but I don't feel like getting in between their gearing and personal issues they might have.

The stat issue I just can't bring up with him without any real theorycrafting/math backing it up. It seems like personal preference by judging your post here since you can't give me anything to back up your statements. I try get reactions from you in different ways but it doesn't seem to help. Too bad.

[Deleted]

I'll ask him about the odd enchanting (and int gem, lol), thanks.

Regarding drops I have no clue what's going on during our raids, he's been rolling on everything vs our DK and even told him to give him items he lost roll on. The DK is a pushover, but I don't feel like getting in between their gearing and personal issues they might have.

Well, that kinda sucks for you. Personally I am raiding with a prot warrior, and I am simply passing every tank gear to him since it is sub par and I am simply picking up dps gear because it is alot better for tanking for me. I would be mad if I was the dk if someone picked up the BiS tank pieces for dks on a paladin that do not even need them. It would be like giving tank loot to a melee dps.

Hey, I do not feel it is my job to make your paladin gear properly, or convince you/him about it. I am not an expert theorycrafter. However most theorycrafting supports the fact that haste and mastery is equal, and a bit fight dependant. With a little bit of smart thinking you soon realise haste has some other benefits over mastery ( especially in heroic mode raiding ) which causes haste to be a grear bit ahead of mastery for HC raiding.

I do not feel like lining up the reasons right now, I have mentioned some of them in alot of other threads here on the forum, however some of the most important ones I have kept to myself. ( Hey, lets not spoil everything here ).

If it is your paladins choice to go mastery, then so be it. However, if I were you, I would atleast hint him to try out haste. See what he thinks about it, and you should soon see that he realises how much superior it is.

His pandaren step could be so simple that he is only PoJ specced for Emps heroic, since PoJ is quite nice there.
But on most other fight LAotL really pulls ahead. LAotL requires a bit more awareness and skill though ( which I have no doubt your paladin have ), and ofc it scales nicely with haste.

[DrDreads]

If you want theorycrafting/math to back it up it can be found both here and here, all of which was posted quite awhile back by Theck.

[Bonkura]

Well, that kinda sucks for you. Personally I am raiding with a prot warrior, and I am simply passing every tank gear to him since it is sub par and I am simply picking up dps gear because it is alot better for tanking for me. I would be mad if I was the dk if someone picked up the BiS tank pieces for dks on a paladin that do not even need them. It would be like giving tank loot to a melee dps.

Hey, I do not feel it is my job to make your paladin gear properly, or convince you/him about it. I am not an expert theorycrafter. However most theorycrafting supports the fact that haste and mastery is equal, and a bit fight dependant. With a little bit of smart thinking you soon realise haste has some other benefits over mastery ( especially in heroic mode raiding ) which causes haste to be a grear bit ahead of mastery for HC raiding.

We have a DK dps in our raid too so it's not that simple when we need to gear up asap for new raids. The DK tank has been a bit uncertain over what items he should be aiming for as well.

I understand perfectly fine why haste and exp hard cap could be better than mastery. I just wanted to see something backing it up rather than opinions. Because opinions teach me nothing, especially not when they are coming from randoms.

What you've been trying to do is like let's say I'm a NHL player meeting you at a night club and it turns out you play hockey as well. You tell me I should get a new stick because it's much better than the one I'm using. However I have no idea what you've been able to achieve with said stick or what level you are playing on. Should I still change stick?

If you want theorycrafting/math to back it up it can be found both here and here, all of which was posted quite awhile back by Theck.

Now this is what I've been asking for. Thanks a lot.

[Deleted]

Again going back to your HC10 feng kill this week. ( since it was the log I am currently checking )

Your paladin did not even keep sacred shield up. Naturally it is farm for you, but he used Sacred Shield three times. Thats a 15-20% uptime on SS, that is extremely low for such a powerful spell.

My sacred shield alone outhealed your paladins entire healing for that fight. You should make sure that he is keeping SS up on progress fights atleast, since it is so strong right now. It is basically 8 absorbs ticks for 50-90 depending on vengeance. ( Lets say 70k average, even though it was on 80k average for me on Feng this week ). So that is a 420k absorb over time in one global cooldown. Your paladin did 1.1M damage absorbed with it, and he used it 3 times, though he is not haste geared so he is getting less out of the absorb.

It looks like he only used Lights hammer 2 or 3 times on that fight, which is weird for such a strong damage + healing cooldown.
He only threw 1 lights hammer on the adds during Shadow Phase, and that hammer missed alot, only did 16 ticks on the adds. Your holy paladin did a much much better job there.

Now of course, this is a farm fight, but it is those little things that I hope he does on progress. If that feng log was your first kill I would say that he was getting carried, but seeing as it is farm, I guess it is okay for people to slack.

---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 05:54 PM ----------

What you've been trying to do is like let's say I'm a NHL player meeting you at a night club and it turns out you play hockey as well. You tell me I should get a new stick because it's much better than the one I'm using. However I have no idea what you've been able to achieve with said stick or what level you are playing on. Should I still change stick?

Sure, but for your paladin it is more like I am telling him to use a hockey stick instead of a baseball bat for playing hockey, to which he replies
"But, I used a baseball bat last year while playing baseball"
Well you are playing a different sport now. You need different gear for that sport, your baseball bat maybe allows you to hit the puck but a hockeystick would be better. Doesn't matter if I play NHL or AHL or street hockey.

As DrDreads linked above Sacredduty blog is very good source of Thecks Theorycrafting. Which I presumed that your paladin tank was already familiar with. What I wonder is if your paladin actually have any theorycrafting to back up his gearing choice?

Thecks Theory Crafting covers mostly damage reduction though, there are several other benefits and situational uses with causes haste to pull ahead even more.

Just to mention some of the simple ones.

DPS improves alot, which is never wrong when pushing never HC modes
Sacred Shield improves greatly with haste. ( which is also great to use on other players than yourself / the other tank when your not tanking )
Healing improves alot
Alot better for off tanking
Scales insanely on any fight with haste buffs and during BL due to haste scaling multiplicative

and several other reasons, alot of which is fight specific.

[Deleted]

So do I get an apology yet or are you too self righteous to admit you were wrong?

[Malthanis]

Helai, don't push it. The thread is back on track, so let's keep it that way.

[Maynards]

Ok, as my main is a protadin too I am confused aswell by gearing up this tier.

Let's just look at some top pallies from top5 guilds.

Fraggoji (Dream Paragon) (EU) http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...raggoji/simple

Hit capped / exp soft capped / then stack mastery 8.5k mastery and over 580k hp unbuffed

Treckie (Method) (EU) http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eckie/advanced

Hit capped / Going for exp hard cap (12% atm) / Stacking stam (might be for specific encounter in hof)

Absalom (Blood Legion) (US) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...salom/advanced

5% hit / 4% exp / 6.8k mastery / 20% parry and 600k hp

Trdksvina (Envy) (EU) http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...svina/advanced

Hit capped / exp soft capped / 6k mastery / 20% parry / 580k hp

******

I know it's only a sample but none of them is going haste, I don't see the point in going haste either.

Can someone explain me why is 2500 expertise rating you need it from soft to hard cap better then 2500 mastery rating ?

I am currently playing hit / hard cap / mastery on my pally and I feel somewhat weak in term of damage taken, healers are not telling me that I am hard to heal since I average around 20k hps every fight but I feel like there's too many build atm for prot that it is really hard to find the good one.

I am currently thinking on going absalom's build what you guys think ?

[Elim Garak]

Most of the times, a crit pieces is better than a dodge+parry piece.

Nah. just because mastery/haste is better than dodge/parry - doesn't mean that dodge/parry are bad. Avoidance is good too. Especially at hit/expertise caps.
I doubt that 200 haste, 300 crit and 500 mastery is better than 200 haste, 300 dodge and 500 parry.
300 dodge >> 300 crit - way more than 500 mastery > 500 parry.
Or in other words: 500 parry + 300 dodge is better than 500 mastery + 300 crit. (haste is present on both via reforging)

[Deleted]

Nah. just because mastery/haste is better than dodge/parry - doesn't mean that dodge/parry are bad. Avoidance is good too. Especially at hit/expertise caps.
I doubt that 200 haste, 300 crit and 500 mastery is better than 200 haste, 300 dodge and 500 parry.
300 dodge >> 300 crit - way more than 500 mastery > 500 parry.
Or in other words: 500 parry + 300 dodge is better than 500 mastery + 300 crit. (haste is present on both via reforging)

Due to how parry and dodge directly counter acts mastery and haste with the new CTC system, I would say not.
Basically dodge and parry got its highest value when your freshly dinged. But every single gear point of hit, expertise, haste and mastery reduces the value of parry and dodge in comparison to the other stats. Which is why dodge and parry may have some weight in blue gear, but once you got epic gear, you should never go for dodge and parry.

Do not forget socket bonuses either that is usually better on dps gear.

I would say that in blue gear you may be correct, but once you get into raiding gear with increasing stat ratings, I would for sure say that haste+crit piece is better for haste stacking tanks and mastery+crit is better for mastery tanks, simply due to the fact that the more gear you get, the worse dodge and parry gets, the more mastery and haste you get, the more valuable it gets.

Also do not really understand your logic that avoidance is good at hit/exp caps.
Avoidance has higher value in comparison to haste and mastery before hit and exp cap.
Whilst hit and exp increase the value of haste and mastery, it directly decrease the value of dodge and parry. So when you got 0% hit and exp, avoidance is at its best in comparison to other stats, when you get hit and exp cap it is at its worst.

[Elim Garak]

Due to how parry and dodge directly counter acts mastery and haste with the new CTC system, I would say not.

What do you mean "counter acts"? They work perfectly fine together - just not like before with one-roll system.

Basically dodge and parry got its highest value when your freshly dinged. But every single gear point of hit, expertise, haste and mastery reduces the value of parry and dodge in comparison to the other stats. Which is why dodge and parry may have some weight in blue gear, but once you got epic gear, you should never go for dodge and parry.

We are not talking about "going for dodge/parry". I'm just saying that 500 parry and 300 dodge is better than 500 mastery (crit sucks - won't even mention it)
DPS gear overall is very good for prot paladin. Sometimes better than tank gear. I never argued against that. You were claiming that CRIT dps gear is better than tank gear. Which is not true.

I would say that in blue gear you may be correct, but once you get into raiding gear with increasing stat ratings, I would for sure say that haste+crit piece is better for haste stacking tanks and mastery+crit is better for mastery tanks, simply due to the fact that the more gear you get, the worse dodge and parry gets, the more mastery and haste you get, the more valuable it gets.

Ok let's look at these example...
DPS piece: 500 crit and 500 haste for haste driven tank == 200 mastery and 500 haste. (since it's haste driven tank - mastery is not that good compared to haste, right?)
Tank piece: 500 dodge and 500 parry == 200 haste, 300 dodge and 500 parry.
Comparing:
DPS gear has 300 haste and 200 mastery more. total 500
Tank gear has 300 dodge and 500 parry more. total 800

800/500 = 1.6 - 1.6x times. Even if avoidance is THAT bad - that just makes the pieces EQUAL.

Also do not really understand your logic that avoidance is good at hit/exp caps.

Because at hit/exp caps damage is SMOOTHER, that negates the only BAD thing about avoidance - spiky damage.

[Deleted]

At the risk of sounding like a hipster elitist, it's typical of my experiences with icy-veins. Similar to EJ in the sense that the first one to post a function guide/list gets given full authority over educating thousands of players.

That's not aimed at anyone in particular but it's happened a few times where rando's get the reins to a popular site's main guides/bis lists for classes.

Not enough blue goats in this thread. Quite agree.

Imo it's best if people understand their class, new stat priorities etc rather than relying on some random websites bis list, and make up their own gearing strategy using atlasloot or w/e. Time allowing ofc . If only people thought for themselves rather then relied on others to tell what to do....

[learntotank]

At the risk of sounding like a hipster elitist, it's typical of my experiences with icy-veins. Similar to EJ in the sense that the first one to post a function guide/list gets given full authority over educating thousands of players.

That's not aimed at anyone in particular but it's happened a few times where rando's get the reins to a popular site's main guides/bis lists for classes.

This.
10 characters.

Please refrain from making "this" posts. If you have nothing to add, please refrain from posting. - Malthanis

[Elathi]

What do you mean "counter acts"? They work perfectly fine together - just not like before with one-roll system.

I imagine the way it "counter acts" (though maybe that's a little bit strong of a term) is kind of two-fold, at least the relation between avoidance and mastery.

For a very simplified example, let's say you have 15% dodge, 15% parry, a given mob has a 5% chance to miss you, and you have a 30% block chance. In a two-table attack system, 65% of the mob's attacks will get to the second table, and you'll block 30% of those, making the actual probability of you blocking an attack 19.5%, so 45.5% of attacks against you will hit directly. (This doesn't matter quite as much to warriors since Shield Block guarantees blocks for its duration.)

However, on a one-table attack system, you'd block 30% of attacks. Here, your chance to block isn't diminished by avoidance, and only 35% of attacks would be direct hits.

The two-roll system isn't doing us any favors.

The other way it seems avoidance might conflict is because of the length of the SotR buff, compared to the lengths of the mitigation buffs of the other tanks. If they avoid an attack or even two while one of their buffs is up, it lasts long enough that there's still a good chance they'll get use out of it. Avoiding attacks during SotR's uptime can make it feel to the player like half or all of its use was wasted (Depending on timing of use, enemy swing frequency, and other factors.). As well, avoiding an attack during that time reduces the damage taken by, worst case, 62% (reduced further by mastery rating), rather than 100% like it would be when avoiding an attack at any other time, since if the attack had hit, SotR would have reduced it.

[Deleted]

hit and exp hardcap is imo mandatory right now since it has several advantages.
-you can always count your holy power generating abilitys to land and so your sotr uptime improves vastly.
-your dps/healing output will go up significantly
- in non dot fight it will reduce your deff cds + loh a lot more if talented into it

as a sub gearing strategie there is now mastery vs haste
mastery:
pros
-bigger dmg reduce (physical) value of sotr
- bigger healing output with bastion of glory but that one is not really a key factor since with the amount of vengeance you get in hc raids it will top you anyway with 5 stacks

cons
-it does nothing for your uptime of sotr

haste:
pros
-a lot more holy power thus meaning higher uptime of sotr
-higher dps
-more healing (if adds are in the game + high vengance + seal of light + battle healer you will pull hps which puts a lot of healer to shame)
-reducing your cooldowns alot more if talented into it (at garajal hc you can drive your bubble cd so low that it will be availabe at every tanking cycle)
-sacred shield
-with holy avenger haste is a beast an you will get even more uptime of sotr

cons.
-decreased dmg reduce value of sotr


basically haste makes you even less spikier than mastery and causes your dps and hps to increase significantly

[Elim Garak]

I imagine the way it "counter acts" (though maybe that's a little bit strong of a term) is kind of two-fold, at least the relation between avoidance and mastery.

For a very simplified example, let's say you have 15% dodge, 15% parry, a given mob has a 5% chance to miss you, and you have a 30% block chance. In a two-table attack system, 65% of the mob's attacks will get to the second table, and you'll block 30% of those, making the actual probability of you blocking an attack 19.5%, so 45.5% of attacks against you will hit directly. (This doesn't matter quite as much to warriors since Shield Block guarantees blocks for its duration.)

However, on a one-table attack system, you'd block 30% of attacks. Here, your chance to block isn't diminished by avoidance, and only 35% of attacks would be direct hits.

The two-roll system isn't doing us any favors.

Two-roll system only means that we can't reach full CTC coverage PASSIVELY. As we could before MoP.
It in no way means that avoidance "counter acts" mitigation
You still have "35%" chance of passively avoiding an attack and if you don't then you have "30%" chance of passively blocking it and if you don't then you have an opportunity to ACTIVELY reduce its damage.
It doesn't matter what is the total chance to block an attack - it's useless data.
You have to look at chances separately. Avoidance chance and block chance. The higher they are BOTH the better - even in two-roll system (especially in two roll system - previously you could just focus on either of them and be fine)

In new system you have to deal with more attacks that get around your passive defense (35% vs 45.5% in your example) - that's true - but that's what ACTIVE mitigation is for.

The other way it seems avoidance might conflict is because of the length of the SotR buff, compared to the lengths of the mitigation buffs of the other tanks. If they avoid an attack or even two while one of their buffs is up, it lasts long enough that there's still a good chance they'll get use out of it. Avoiding attacks during SotR's uptime can make it feel to the player like half or all of its use was wasted (Depending on timing of use, enemy swing frequency, and other factors.). As well, avoiding an attack during that time reduces the damage taken by, worst case, 62% (reduced further by mastery rating), rather than 100% like it would be when avoiding an attack at any other time, since if the attack had hit, SotR would have reduced it.

It doesn't matter how it may "feel". Avoiding an attack while SotR is up is WAY better than taking it.
That's why haste is king now - so you could get your SotR up in "no time". But if you play it right and time your SotR right - you can avoid the first attack and take the second attack with the same SotR still.
3 secs is a lot of time. Unless the boss is very slow hitting one. Well if it is slow hitting as in less than or equal to 1 attack per 3 secs - I don't see a problem with avoidance. I don't think there are one-shot bosses in MoP. So even if you take a full hit once in a while - you'll survive.

[Deleted]

Two-roll system only means that we can't reach full CTC coverage PASSIVELY. As we could before MoP.
It in no way means that avoidance "counter acts" mitigation
You still have "35%" chance of passively avoiding an attack and if you don't then you have "30%" chance of passively blocking it and if you don't then you have an opportunity to ACTIVELY reduce its damage.
It doesn't matter what is the total chance to block an attack - it's useless data.
You have to look at chances separately. Avoidance chance and block chance. The higher they are BOTH the better - even in two-roll system (especially in two roll system - previously you could just focus on either of them and be fine)

In new system you have to deal with more attacks that get around your passive defense (35% vs 45.5% in your example) - that's true - but that's what ACTIVE mitigation is for.

It doesn't matter how it may "feel". Avoiding an attack while SotR is up is WAY better than taking it.
That's why haste is king now - so you could get your SotR up in "no time". But if you play it right and time your SotR right - you can avoid the first attack and take the second attack with the same SotR still.
3 secs is a lot of time. Unless the boss is very slow hitting one. Well if it is slow hitting as in less than or equal to 1 attack per 3 secs - I don't see a problem with avoidance. I don't think there are one-shot bosses in MoP. So even if you take a full hit once in a while - you'll survive.

I may be going out of my freak-outing-mind, but aren't all bosses on a 1.5 sec melee swing timer now?