Request for those who eat Organic Fruit... looking for specific scientific data....

[mvaliz]

OK - so I've been on a massive shift in healthy living these past few years, and I love absorbing all the information, documentaries, ect out there.

I've seen enough pro-organic documentaries telling me about how commercial plants are genetically modified to make them resistant to pesticides and are grown in chemical fertilizers... and apparently they suggest that the chemical fertilizers and pesticides get absorbed by the plant at its roots and it goes into the fruit.

Now, I REALLY want to believe this... but there's a tiny baby problem I'm having in it.

I have yet to see a single scientific experiment where they take one organic fruit, and one non-organic fruit... slice them open, grind them up, and actually COMPARE the chemical compositions of the two.

I haven't seen a SINGLE actual scientific piece of data that says "this non-organic apple has been ground up and tested positive to these pesticides being within the fruit contents". NOBODY has done that yet... and it's really disparaging.

I've seen PLENTY of documentaries and people talking about how the plants grow in chemical soil laced with pesticides, and that those pesticides go into the fruit... but that's it - THEY DON'T KNOW it goes into the fruit! NOBODY'S done a damn test to compare the toxicity of an non-organic apple. It's just an arrogant assumption it goes into the fruit... those plants have been GMed to resist those chemicals. Plants THEMSELVES have ways to filter out toxic chemicals (just as us animals have livers to filter out certain trace poisons).

I'm getting concerned here. Too many are saying this, and already too many have told me that Organic fruit simply tastes better than Commercial fruit - and I've since learned that to be a whole lot of hokum. Canned fruit, obviously, isn't better... but not straight Organic Apple compared to non-organic apple. They taste exactly the same (actually, I venture to say the non-organic tastes better IMO)

I want to believe... I REALLY do... but I have a scientific mind, and I don't just jump on theories like this without some actual evidence.

So... my question to all you Organiphiles out there (is that a word? :P). Can you send me/post a link that actually does compare a non-organic apple to an organic apple to show the chemical makeup? Not one that compares the CONDITIONS the two plants are raised.... not one that compares the PLANTS themselves... but the actual produce. The Apple... the fruit. One that says definitively "This fruit has been tested positive with these chemicals in the flesh of the fruit itself!". I've done countless google searches and watched enough documentaries to wear a hole into my eyes... and I can't find ONE simple basic comparison on that level! >_<

[Spectral]

I don't know why you want to believe this so badly. Genetically modified organisms appear entirely safe for human consumption, with no nutritional drawbacks.

[Deleted]

you're missing the point of organic food (at least partially). the main reason for organic food is the exploiting(towards nature and possible future generations) way in wich we plant, grow and harvest our food. we damage our water and soils with fertilizers and monocultures etc. we breed multiresistant viruses and bacteria as we feed antibiotics to our livestock. and so on and so on.
ofc in the most cases it will be beneficial towards your health if you dont consume those antibiotics or the pesticides used to "protect" the apples. but thats only part the reason.
and the problem with gen-food is: noone really knows whats harming us and what isn't (albeit i dont believe it will seriously affect our live to the negative) we actually still dont know alot about many process in our body and/or the environment.

[Deadvolcanoes]

I did a really quick search and got: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-01/h...s?_s=PM:HEALTH

Most alarming are the fruits and vegetables dubbed the "Dirty Dozen," which contain 47 to 67 pesticides per serving. These foods are believed to be most susceptible because they have soft skin that tends to absorb more pesticides.

I try to eat organic whenever possible because these pesticides are not used, and more often then not it is locally grown.

But I mean, without even looking at a single study, are you rejecting the hypothesis that if we spray chemicals on food, it somehow doesn't get absorbed into the actual fruit?

[Deadvolcanoes]

The recently conducted Stanford study also showed a large amount of reduced chemicals on organic food than non-organic. You can google that if you want.

If you really have tried so hard to find this information, I dont get how you have not found it. It's all over the place.

[Aalyy]

Is the OP really asking whether or not studies have been done showing amounts of pesticide residues in food?? There are tons of them! I don't eat 100% organic but I go by the "dirty dozen" list, the most contaminated fruits and veggies I do buy organic only. Apples in particular tend to retain a lot of the applied pesticides. I'll try to rustle up some actual studies but, yeah, this is an extensively studied topic.

With meat I buy 50/50 conventional vs organic/pastured/grass fed. It's really expensive. I think grass fed or pastured meat is healthier but not to to the degree of the cost difference. I mean $5 for a chicken vs $15 or higher is a little crazy. Still I like to speak with my wallet so I buy what I can.

Eggs are one product that everyone can really afford to get the good stuff. I mean organic cage free eggs, preferably not vegetarian fed since chickens aren't natural vegetarians, are like $5 a dozen vs $3 for the crappy conventional eggs. The "expensive" eggs aren't really that much more but they are tastier and more nutritious.

About GMO foods, some of them may be perfectly safe for human consumption others may not be. There really haven't been many long term studies done so the jury is still out. This is why it's so important that we know if the food we are eating has been genetically engineered. We need to be able to make informed choices. Much of what is GMO in the USA is soy and grains which, IMO, aren't even healthy for humans in the first place.

[mvaliz]

I did a really quick search and got: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-01/h...s?_s=PM:HEALTH




I try to eat organic whenever possible because these pesticides are not used, and more often then not it is locally grown.

But I mean, without even looking at a single study, are you rejecting the hypothesis that if we spray chemicals on food, it somehow doesn't get absorbed into the actual fruit?

Oh no no! I'm not rejecting the hypothisis at all! Actually that's why I bothered posting! ^_^

I actually believe the hypothesis is very sound, but I just haven't seen anybody actually say "here's a test - BLAM - here are the conclusions".

Even that link you posted has this line in it:

what fruits and vegetables we eat have the highest, and lowest, amounts of chemical residue.

Residue... not inside the fruit. Residue, on the surface - something that can be washed off (a basic step in food-preparation).

Yeah, I tried writing this thread as politely as possible as I don't want to give the impression that I don't believe the base hypothesis could be true... I think it's a VERY sound one... but I also believe the other hypothesis the GM fruit - by their DESIGN - are meant to resist absorbing those said chemicals, is also a very sound theory too.

I'm just more concerned that all the content I've seen has people assuming this is already true, and I haven't seen a proper flesh/fruit test comparison yet.

[Deleted]

The recently conducted Stanford study also showed a large amount of reduced chemicals on organic food than non-organic. You can google that if you want.

If you really have tried so hard to find this information, I dont get how you have not found it. It's all over the place.

This one?

http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2012/september/organic.html

[mvaliz]

Is the OP really asking whether or not studies have been done showing amounts of pesticide residues in food?? There are tons of them!

Residue = surface of the fruit. Not in the flesh of the fruit itself.

As I said... nobody has GROUND up an apple and compared the actual chemical composition.

Residue you can clean off with basic washing.

[teddytous]

Your mixing apples and oranges lol....

Genetically modified foods vs Natural physiology
Commercial farming methods vs Organic farming methods

Two very different things. The ideal genetically modified food would be organically farmed, as it would be successful without the need for chemicals or pesticides.

In any case, you might find this interesting http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/cg087

Basically set limits, again, surface composition, but I don't think they test fruits internal composition.

I think the argument is probably quite simple: This isn't a profoundly difficult to comprehend question you have come up with, but the answer is not common. So it is either not a simple as you think, or so blatantly simple that it doesn't need to be said.

I suspect that the pesticide PPM internally on fruit is so low that measuring them because borderline impossible or so useless that it is not done. For this see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detection_limit

[Deleted]

Is the OP really asking whether or not studies have been done showing amounts of pesticide residues in food?? There are tons of them! I don't eat 100% organic but I go by the "dirty dozen" list, the most contaminated fruits and veggies I do buy organic only. Apples in particular tend to retain a lot of the applied pesticides. I'll try to rustle up some actual studies but, yeah, this is an extensively studied topic.

With meat I buy 50/50 conventional vs organic/pastured/grass fed. It's really expensive. I think grass fed or pastured meat is healthier but not to to the degree of the cost difference. I mean $5 for a chicken vs $15 or higher is a little crazy. Still I like to speak with my wallet so I buy what I can.

Eggs are one product that everyone can really afford to get the good stuff. I mean organic cage free eggs, preferably not vegetarian fed since chickens aren't natural vegetarians, are like $5 a dozen vs $3 for the crappy conventional eggs. The "expensive" eggs aren't really that much more but they are tastier and more nutritious.

About GMO foods, some of them may be perfectly safe for human consumption others may not be. There really haven't been many long term studies done so the jury is still out. This is why it's so important that we know if the food we are eating has been genetically engineered. We need to be able to make informed choices. Much of what is GMO in the USA is soy and grains which, IMO, aren't even healthy for humans in the first place.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3135239/

Also you do realise organic doesn't mean no pesticides. It means no synthetic pesticides.

[mvaliz]

This one?

http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2012/september/organic.html

Thank you for that link! That's more of what I'm talking about! ^_^

...that was a very useful read. Though it does go against what Deadvolcanoes is saying... that article says there is little-to-no pesticides and virtually no difference between Organic and non-organic. Indeed, the only thing they sighted that was of any significant difference was the phosphorous difference (which is obtained via many other means).

[Deleted]

Thank you for that link! That's more of what I'm talking about! ^_^

...that was a very useful read. Though it does go against what Deadvolcanoes is saying... that article says there is little-to-no pesticides and virtually no difference between Organic and non-organic. Indeed, the only thing they sighted that was of any significant difference was the phosphorous difference (which is obtained via many other means).

Yeah sorry. I should have mentioned I think a vast majority of Organic Food information is a bit...off/misleading. :P

So most of the articles you'll find me linking will be aimed to debunk the myths.

[Sharde]

i'm not a fan of organic food so i put this one up here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ET7...yer_detailpage

not really scientific proof on organic bullshitting but a nice counterweight to all the hype. i don't get it why we should restrict ourselves with organic food production. i don't care how many genetical modifications my vegetables have. the complete agricultural sector in the EU and especially germany is heavily regulated and safeguarded. so the issue of health risks are ignorable imo.

organic is pretty much a scam to milk more money out of guilable people. vegetables are vegetables. buy what tastes better or is more affordable to you.

[Thelxi]

I always get the organic fruit and veggies instead of the regular ones, simply because they taste better and are only slightly more expensive. Fruit and veggies are already cheap food if you think about it. Seriously if you are on a tight budget buying regular fruit instead of organic stuff is not gonna save you any significant money.

[Deleted]

I always get the organic fruit and veggies instead of the regular ones, simply because they taste better and are only slightly more expensive. Fruit and veggies are already cheap food if you think about it. Seriously if you are on a tight budget buying regular fruit instead of organic stuff is not gonna save you any significant money.

The only food that I can tell the difference is, is with eggs. That's only between store bought and back garden eggs. My mum has a couple of chickens and they're the only thing I can tell a difference with (I think anyway, never put it to the test...yet!)

[Deadvolcanoes]

...that was a very useful read. Though it does go against what Deadvolcanoes is saying... that article says there is little-to-no pesticides and virtually no difference between Organic and non-organic.

Did we read the same article????

While researchers found that organic produce had a 30 percent lower risk of pesticide contamination than conventional fruits and vegetables, organic foods are not necessarily 100 percent free of pesticides.

Two studies of children consuming organic and conventional diets did find lower levels of pesticide residues in the urine of children on organic diets, though the significance of these findings on child health is unclear.

Additionally, organic chicken and pork appeared to reduce exposure to antibiotic-resistant bacteria, but the clinical significance of this is also unclear.

Also, the finding of the study say this:

and found little evidence that organic foods are more nutritious.

That't not why people eat organic! No one thinks an organic apple has more vitamin C than a non-organic apple. I eat organic to avoid pesticides, and because it's locally grown, which by itself is worth the extra money.

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 08:08 PM ----------

Yeah sorry. I should have mentioned I think a vast majority of Organic Food information is a bit...off/misleading. :P

So most of the articles you'll find me linking will be aimed to debunk the myths.

Please, feel free to keep linking articles that don't debunk organic food information.

[Deleted]

OK - so I've been on a massive shift in healthy living these past few years, and I love absorbing all the information, documentaries, ect out there.

I've seen enough pro-organic documentaries telling me about how commercial plants are genetically modified to make them resistant to pesticides and are grown in chemical fertilizers... and apparently they suggest that the chemical fertilizers and pesticides get absorbed by the plant at its roots and it goes into the fruit.

Now, I REALLY want to believe this... but there's a tiny baby problem I'm having in it.

I have yet to see a single scientific experiment where they take one organic fruit, and one non-organic fruit... slice them open, grind them up, and actually COMPARE the chemical compositions of the two.

I haven't seen a SINGLE actual scientific piece of data that says "this non-organic apple has been ground up and tested positive to these pesticides being within the fruit contents". NOBODY has done that yet... and it's really disparaging.

I've seen PLENTY of documentaries and people talking about how the plants grow in chemical soil laced with pesticides, and that those pesticides go into the fruit... but that's it - THEY DON'T KNOW it goes into the fruit! NOBODY'S done a damn test to compare the toxicity of an non-organic apple. It's just an arrogant assumption it goes into the fruit... those plants have been GMed to resist those chemicals. Plants THEMSELVES have ways to filter out toxic chemicals (just as us animals have livers to filter out certain trace poisons).

I'm getting concerned here. Too many are saying this, and already too many have told me that Organic fruit simply tastes better than Commercial fruit - and I've since learned that to be a whole lot of hokum. Canned fruit, obviously, isn't better... but not straight Organic Apple compared to non-organic apple. They taste exactly the same (actually, I venture to say the non-organic tastes better IMO)

I want to believe... I REALLY do... but I have a scientific mind, and I don't just jump on theories like this without some actual evidence.

So... my question to all you Organiphiles out there (is that a word? :P). Can you send me/post a link that actually does compare a non-organic apple to an organic apple to show the chemical makeup? Not one that compares the CONDITIONS the two plants are raised.... not one that compares the PLANTS themselves... but the actual produce. The Apple... the fruit. One that says definitively "This fruit has been tested positive with these chemicals in the flesh of the fruit itself!". I've done countless google searches and watched enough documentaries to wear a hole into my eyes... and I can't find ONE simple basic comparison on that level! >_<

I eat organic food because it has less of an impact on the environment, not because it's healthier. Pesticides have a severe impact on the environment. It pollutes the water making it aciding, and in turn that kills off lakes and streams as microbes start dying and the whole foodchain eventually dies. And it kills all insects, even the good ones. I could argue that pesticide is also killing off our bee's and wasps. They are a huge part in polinating flowers and plantlife, and their reduction or even removal from areas could be catastrophic.


Organic often tastes better as well. It's grown properly. And animals bred in an organic way definetly taste better, there is no question about it. A free, happy and well-fed pig tastes the best.

[Thelxi]

The only food that I can tell the difference is, is with eggs. That's only between store bought and back garden eggs. My mum has a couple of chickens and they're the only thing I can tell a difference with (I think anyway, never put it to the test...yet!)

Tomatoes and oranges got a very different taste, kiwis too peaches and apples. I can easily taste the difference.

[Deleted]

i'm not a fan of organic food so i put this one up here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ET7...yer_detailpage

not really scientific proof on organic bullshitting but a nice counterweight to all the hype. i don't get it why we should restrict ourselves with organic food production. i don't care how many genetical modifications my vegetables have. the complete agricultural sector in the EU and especially germany is heavily regulated and safeguarded. so the issue of health risks are ignorable imo.

organic is pretty much a scam to milk more money out of guilable people. vegetables are vegetables. buy what tastes better or is more affordable to you.

If not for ourselves, then for the environment. To say that the heavy use of pesticide has no effect on the environment would be nothing short of ignorant.