[Holy] Fix my Heals!

[Xs]

Just wondering is there a hard cap on how much mastery you can have?
At the moment I'm sitting at 50% raid buffed. Is it worth going for the 2nd BP? At the cost of 8% mastery or just stick with the 1st?

Up to you really, if you can figure out a way to change reforges for it you could grab it mid raid to try out and easily swap back. There isn't a Mastery cap though, other than the soft cap as Tungzten mentions, which is 33% of the casting Paladin's Max health at the time the last bubble was applied. Personally I run the Int 2nd BP 10 man style atm and I enjoy the speed compared to the 1st BP, but I do plan to downgrade after xmas when my guild comes off its holiday downscales, depending on gear upgrades I may stick with the 2nd BP or go down, either way though I will be swapping out Int > Mastery.

[JoeMackenroe]

Armory Link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...afona/advanced

Asking for a friend, long story short, recently got back into WoW, healer spot opened up for our 10m so we decided to try and gear him up over a couple weeks. Decided to give it a test and 2 heal with him and our shaman on immerseus and protectors, and there's worry that he's under performing severely. The thing is- the entire raid is almost fully geared with SoO non-hc drops and legendaries, averaging about 560 ilvl. As a disclaimer, I understand nothing about how healing works or how should it be even measured/compared properly, I'm also aware he's missing a couple of enchants (waiting for better drops just so it isn't a waste of money).

I forgot to capture logs, best I can do is the skada report for now. For the two trials we did, hps on immerseus was 37k, as opposed to shaman's 47k, and 79.5k as opposed to shaman's 164.5k. I guess this is quite a specific and limited scenario to be able to tell, especially without logs. I'm willing to provide more information as much as I can, though the best I could do log-wise for now would be running some LFR with him or something, would that even be of any help?

I'm mostly just trying to figure out if he is greatly under performing for now, or if the current situation is just not favoring him.

[Xs]

Armory Link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...afona/advanced

Asking for a friend, long story short, recently got back into WoW, healer spot opened up for our 10m so we decided to try and gear him up over a couple weeks. Decided to give it a test and 2 heal with him and our shaman on immerseus and protectors, and there's worry that he's under performing severely. The thing is- the entire raid is almost fully geared with SoO non-hc drops and legendaries, averaging about 560 ilvl. As a disclaimer, I understand nothing about how healing works or how should it be even measured/compared properly, I'm also aware he's missing a couple of enchants (waiting for better drops just so it isn't a waste of money).

His armory is fine but without proper logs its impossible to analyse his performance.

[MaugrimEU]

Good afternoon,

Holy Paladin: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Belar/advanced

10 man log example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5472&e=5893

25 man log example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9221&e=9644

I know nothing about Paladins in general, never played one. As you'll see from the logs his healing is quite low compared to the rest, what can he do to fix this?

Any input will be appreciated

[PosPosPos]

Good afternoon, firstly thank you to those who replied on my old thread, it was locked for obvious reasons

Holy Paladin: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Belar/advanced

10 man log example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5472&e=5893

25 man log example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9221&e=9644

I know nothing about Paladins in general, never played one. As you'll see from the logs his healing is quite low, what can he do o fix his problem?

Any input will be appreciated

Light of Dawn usage way off the charts when EF is slotted.

[Deleted]

Light of Dawn usage way off the charts when EF is slotted.

He is also not using HS on CD. Looking at the 25m log he used it 30 times in 7 min fight and it should be closer to 60-70 times. Hence he has not much HP to use on EF.

[MaugrimEU]

He is also not using HS on CD. Looking at the 25m log he used it 30 times in 7 min fight and it should be closer to 60-70 times. Hence he has not much HP to use on EF.

Hi Tungzten

Ah that makes perfect sense as Holy shock is the main holy power generator? So the more holy power he has the more eternal flames he could cast.

I don't know why he is reforging into crit when mastery is king! For his red gem slots would he be better to gem + 80 int + 160 mastery and pure mastery in yellow slots?

[Diggy]

Looking at your 10m log..

Thok can technically be done with both EF and SH, but you need to stick with what you chose. This means that if you picked EF, you gotta cover as many rad members with EF as possible and pretty much forget about LOD. If he wants to do that, I would suggest to track the bloodied debuff on his frames and concentrate on people who don't have the debuff yet. One problem here is that he is going to need to squeeze the holy radiance and time it just right. Higher haste helps here
Personally, I prefer SH on this fight. If he goes that route, he needs to stick to HS->Judgment->Holy Radiance->Light of Dawn rotation. I'm not a fan of this style, but it works really well here.

Also tell him to set up a weak aura(or tellmewhen) with a timer that would light up a holy shock icon on your screen 2 seconds before it is ready to use. This will help him to keep hs on cooldown.

[Deleted]

Hi Tungzten

Ah that makes perfect sense as Holy shock is the main holy power generator? So the more holy power he has the more eternal flames he could cast.

I don't know why he is reforging into crit when mastery is king! For his red gem slots would he be better to gem + 80 int + 160 mastery and pure mastery in yellow slots?

Yes Holy Shock and Holy Radiance are the main HolyPower generators. In an ideal situation you want to spend every GCD either building HP or using it with EF or LoD (depending what you specced).

Reforging for crit is a waste. You want to maximise Mastery and with EF play style get a haste cap. Which haste cap really doesn't matter much. 3506, 7170 are the most common. Gemming depends a bit. Some prefer a INT heavy gemming method, others go for more mastery.
About trinkets, if he has any other trinkets, he shouldn't use the Nazgrim trinket. Its near useless for a paladin. Anything else would be better honestly.

[JoeMackenroe]

His armory is fine but without proper logs its impossible to analyse his performance.

Managed to get tonight's raiding logged:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-y1241awi5yfhq901/
Was an odd night, we also had the disc priest on trials, the paladin there is the one I linked there, recently got a name change.

[Diggy]

I went straight to Malkorok fight since this is where holy paladin should shine. I was surprised to see him 5th on the healing meter
Couple of things jumped out immidiately:
1) Holy shock usage. He used it 24 times on a fight that took 4:14 min. Should be pretty much double that. I see that he died there at the end, but the boss was dead 15 seconds later.
2) Cooldowns usage. None of them has been used. You can see you druid shooting up at the beginning cause he popped probably everything to cover people in shields. The holy paladin hasnt used anything. For example, Holy Avenger is absolutely amazing here. You pop it at the beginning and have eternal flames ticking on absolutely everyone.

[Deja Thoris]

Yeah his basic roation should be holy shock on CD, holy radiance x2. After that he can EF someone. Prio on the tanks and himself for bonus heals.

Now for the holy pala 101
- Hes not using the beacon on the active tank. It converts 50% of most heals to a heal on the tank. He didn't use it. That's mega basic stuff
- ZERO cooldown usage. Nothing. Palas rely heavily on healing CD's for throughput. He has holy avenger that's amazing but more on that in a sec. He also has avenging wrath, divine favour and GoAK. He needs to plan for them and use them.

On malkorok pop HA on the pull. Each holy power generator gives you 3 holy power which allows you to eternal flame a person to top their shields. With this he can holy shock then EF, HR>EF twice and then repeat. Blam, hes placed a strong HoT on 6 people or so and topped their shields from the outset.

So prio:
1) Beacon someone!
2) Rotation with smart EF usage
3) Healing CD's.

Do this and his malk healing will double (if not more)

[Weightlifter]

Would it be ok to use 561 Thok's Tail Tip as my second healing trinket, if the alternative would be a 502 spirit or 496 int trinket?

[Snaige]

How do we optimize our legendary meta procs best? I know as disc priest you can use shield and then get free mana from rapture, as shaman you can put some totems and then recall them for free mana, are there similar tricks for paladins? Not as much for mana issues, just in general.

[PosPosPos]

How do we optimize our legendary meta procs best? I know as disc priest you can use shield and then get free mana from rapture, as shaman you can put some totems and then recall them for free mana, are there similar tricks for paladins? Not as much for mana issues, just in general.

IoL procced HR/DL or FoL casts during LMG procs work best.

[Xs]

How do we optimize our legendary meta procs best? I know as disc priest you can use shield and then get free mana from rapture, as shaman you can put some totems and then recall them for free mana, are there similar tricks for paladins? Not as much for mana issues, just in general.

Theres no real 'trick' as such, you just use it to gain the most Holy Power and save the most Mana you can. Either you continue the HR>HR>HS rotation or Flash the beacon target.

[Kyaza]

Good afternoon,

I know nothing about Paladins in general, never played one. As you'll see from the logs his healing is quite low compared to the rest, what can he do to fix this?

Any input will be appreciated

I had to get rid of the links, due to a low post count (as I prefer to lurk), but anyway, here's my input:

Armory

Looking at his armory, I see a couple issues. He's sitting at 7794 haste rating and has a few haste gems. Honestly, he's not gaining anything by going over the 7170 rating, so it would be better if he just dropped the extra haste to pick up mastery.

He is also gemming for way too much spirit. There is absolutely no reason he should be running 17k spirit + 2 on use spirit trinkets for normal SoO. He also needs to enchant his gloves.

He should be using either Int or Int/Mastery gems in his red sockets, rather than Int/Spirit. And he should be gemming either pure Mastery gems in yellow sockets or Mastery/Spirit gems. He needs to get rid of his pure Spirit gems and replace them with Mastery/Spirit or Int/spirit gems.

He needs to focus much more on Int/Mastery than he is. And he needs to completely get rid of all the hybrid haste gems that he's using, because the 7170 breakpoint is easily reached with gear alone. Also, he needs to fix his reforges. He's running 624 more haste rating than he needs, and it's wasted.

He's using the Glyph of Divine Plea, which is pointless, since Divine Plea no longer reduces the healing you do. Using 5 seconds to cast it now is really just wasting 5 gcds where you could be healing. He'd be better off with the Beacon Glyph or the Protector of the Innocent glyph.


10 Man Thok Log

Light of Dawn did 14.3% of his healing, while Eternal Flame did only 9.3%. If he's using EF for this fight, LoD realistically shouldn't ever be above, at max, 3% of his healing done--preferably lower than that.

Looking at the spell breakdown for LoD and EF, it looks like he cast LoD 138 times in the fight, and EF only 82 times. That is an absurd amount of LoD being cast while EF is specced into. And his uptime on EF is 69.9%, when it should have, at minimum, a 98% uptime. Also, he has a very low uptime on Illuminated Healing, at 77.2%. Like EF, that should be around 98% or higher.

82 EFs through a 7 minute fight is stupidly low. But part of that is related to his HS usage, which I'll get to in a minute.

His Holy Shock usage is abysmal. Looking at his breakdown, he cast it a total of 35 times. In a 7 minute fight, he should be able to cast holy shock ~70 times. By not casting HS on cd, he is greatly reducing the amount of HoPo he can generate.

Looking at HR, he cast it 104 times. Assuming a proper rotation of HS>HR>EF>HR>HS>EF>HR>HR>EF, and a full 2.5 sec cast for HR (ignoring Infusion procs and cooldown usage), that means that he should be able to cast 4 HR in the space of 10 seconds. That means he should be able to average 24 HRs per minute, and in a 7 minute fight, that means he should be able to cast around 168 HR. And that's without taking into account the Infusion of Light procs that will significantly reduce HRs cast time.

Using that same rotation and not taking into account Infusion Procs or CD usage that will allow a much higher EF yield, he should be able to cast 3 EFs in 10 seconds, or 18 EFs per minute. In a 7 minute fight, that means he has the ability to cast, at the very LEAST, a total of 126 Eternal Flames. He barely manages half of that. With proper CD usage and Infusion Procs, he should easily be able to cast more than 126 EFs during a 7 minute fight.

Because he isn't casting HR and HS as much as he should be able to, even without Infusion procs and proper cd usage, he's severely limiting his ability to generate HoPo. Because he's not casting HS on cd, he's not utilizing the Infusion of Light procs well at all. Looking at his buffs cast, he only gained the Infusion buff 19 times throughout the fight. Because he cast HS half as often as he should, he also halved his chances to proc Infusion, which in turn limited the number of his HR casts.

Also, he has 2-set T16, which adds 25% healing to an HR cast when Infusion of Light procs. Since he's not casting HS on cd, he's really missing out on those infused HRs with that extra 25% healing.

He also has two on-use trinkets that he isn't using. Both of them are spirit trinkets. If he doesn't need to use his spirit trinkets on cd, then the 17k spirit he's running is WAY too high.

He did pop Holy Avenger 3 times during the fight, so that's good. He at least is using ONE cd. But he needs to be using ALL of his cds.

He never touched Divine Favor, Avenging Wrath, or Guardian of Ancient Kings. He also never used Lay on Hands. While LoH may not be strictly necessary as a tank cooldown in a fight, if you're using the Divinity glyph, it can be turned into a Mana Regen cooldown instead of a tank cooldown. Granted, you have to be careful using it that way, but it is an option.

Divine Favor is an addition 20% crit and 20% haste on a 3 min cd w/o T16 4set. He should have used it 2x during the fight.

Avenging Wrath is an additional 20% healing throughput on a 2 min cd. He should have used it 3x during the fight.

Guardian of Ancient Kings doubles your healing for 15 seconds and gives you an extra 10% haste on a 3 min cd. He should have used it 2x during the fight.

Assuming either heavy tank damage or just a need for extra mana, he should have used LoH once during the fight. But because he's running 17k spirit, which is too high when you consider that he has 2 on use spirit trinkets he didn't use a single time during the fight, it's not surprising he didn't use it.

With those trinkets, he should have been able to pop Contemplation 4x and Soothing Talisman 2x during the fight.

Also, he is specced into Clemency, allowing 2 BoPs, 2 salvs, and 2 sacs to be used before resetting the cooldown. During the Thok fight he only used BoP once and only used Sac once. If he's not going to use BoP and Sac more often than that, he'd be better off running Unbreakable Spirit.

On Thok, Clemency is honestly preferable to Unbreakable Spirit, but only if it's used. During later deafening screeches, he should have used Divine Shield on himself and bopped the other two healers to prevent their spells from being interrupted.

And he never used Divine Shield. On most fights, that's w/e, no damage. But on Thok, with those interrupts, using Divine Shield for one of the later screeches is invaluable, as it allows you to ignore 1-2 deafening screeches (depending on when you use it of course) and stay in the stacked phase longer.

The last comment I have is that he only used Devotion Aura once during the fight. With a 3 minute cd, he should easily have been able to use it twice. Even then, his Devo seems to have been used at the beginning of a stack phase, which isn't the most optimal place for it, as the first few deafening screeches don't do enough damage to force a phase change.


TO Veng101

It takes a long time to break down a chart like this for a single healer, for a single fight, to really see what they are doing. As I only heal 10 mans, I'm not going to look at the 25man logs you linked. But I hope that this breakdown helps you see what areas your holy paladin needs to work on.

TO Everyone else

If my breakdown of this chart seems inconsistent or incorrect in some areas, I'd like to know. While I'm used to reading my own logs, I don't usually sit down and try to break them down for someone else. If I made a mistake, I'm 100% okay with being corrected.

[Xs]

TO Everyone else
If my breakdown of this chart seems inconsistent or incorrect in some areas, I'd like to know. While I'm used to reading my own logs, I don't usually sit down and try to break them down for someone else. If I made a mistake, I'm 100% okay with being corrected.

Mostly relating to Armory and the start of your break down:
1. It can be perfectly viable in 10 man content to use Intellect gems, its a playstyle choice more than a raw throughput choice, it all depends on who you're healing with. Not really applicable to the healer in question, as hes 25/10 mixed but still worth mentioning.
2. I'd say the level of Spirit he has is acceptable, the two trinkets he has are quite shit on the regen front compared to the ideal set that we all compare against, probably enough to equate for at least 1000 Spirit extra, and some people find 16k to be their comfort zone.
3. You mention DP glyph, without knowing what it actually does. The Armory link for it is broken, because Blizzard really suck at updating those, its just a flat 50% reduction now across the board, which while still shit, is considerably less shit than the armory link.
4. You're calculating a HR>HR>HS rotation without accounting for anything else in the rotation, the correct way to calculate is, Time(s) divided by 6(base rotation turn over) and there should 2 Holy power generated via HR/HS/ToR for every 6 second window (allowing for EF/Dispells/90Tal/BoP/Bubble)
5. You're just looking at LoD as numbers, WoL records total heals done which is Uses*6 (safe to assume it probably wont overheal, much at least)

Hope this helps you to work with future logs, if you're interested in helping others analyse them, also you should be able to post links now that you have 10 posts.

[Kyaza]

Mostly relating to Armory and the start of your break down:
1. It can be perfectly viable in 10 man content to use Intellect gems, its a playstyle choice more than a raw throughput choice, it all depends on who you're healing with. Not really applicable to the healer in question, as hes 25/10 mixed but still worth mentioning.
2. I'd say the level of Spirit he has is acceptable, the two trinkets he has are quite shit on the regen front compared to the ideal set that we all compare against, probably enough to equate for at least 1000 Spirit extra, and some people find 16k to be their comfort zone.
3. You mention DP glyph, without knowing what it actually does. The Armory link for it is broken, because Blizzard really suck at updating those, its just a flat 50% reduction now across the board, which while still shit, is considerably less shit than the armory link.
4. You're calculating a HR>HR>HS rotation without accounting for anything else in the rotation, the correct way to calculate is, Time(s) divided by 6(base rotation turn over) and there should 2 Holy power generated via HR/HS/ToR for every 6 second window (allowing for EF/Dispells/90Tal/BoP/Bubble)
5. You're just looking at LoD as numbers, WoL records total heals done which is Uses*6 (safe to assume it probably wont overheal, much at least)

Hope this helps you to work with future logs, if you're interested in helping others analyse them, also you should be able to post links now that you have 10 posts.

Here's the link to the 10man log I was referring to, just to make things easier:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5472&e=5893

1. I know it's perfectly viable in 10 mans to use Int gems. That's why I said either Int OR Int/Mastery OR Mastery. And I agree that it depends on who you're healing with. But I was referring more to his pure Spirit gems and the weird haste/spirit gem in his gear. I'm currently gemming Int for 10man healing, though I'm getting ready to switch to mastery since I'm two-healing with a resto druid.

If I somehow implied Int gemming wasn't viable in 10mans, that wasn't my intention at all.

2. The reason I say his spirit is too high is because he's NOT using his spirit trinkets anyway. If he doesn't need to use those trinkets, there's no reason he should have that much spirit. I don't have a problem with someone running 17k spirit if they are actually doing the kind of healing that warrants it. And the truth is, he's not doing enough healing to warrant that much spirit. If he were, then w/e. Spirit is a comfort thing. But if he's not going to use the amount of spirit he's stacking, it's pointless to stack it that high. That was the only point I was trying to make.

3. As to the DP glyph, I don't use it and I wasn't in-game when I wrote my previous post. And I should have double-checked the tooltip before talking about it. I'll readily admit that. But a 50% CD reduction with 50% reduced mana cost is gross. Ok, so you can use it every minute instead of every 2 minutes, but the cost of 50% of your healing isn't worth it.

4. I'm not amazing with math, which is why I wasn't taking other things into consideration. I stated that upfront, though. And um... yes, I am this bad with math. Would you mind rewriting that equation as an actual equation? Like an x/y = z or whatever type of thing with each coefficient described? I've never been good with combining words with math terms. To me, English and Math are two different languages and when an equation is written the way you wrote it out...I just get lost.

5. Okay. Thanks for the clarification on LoD. So that would mean that while WoL records total heals as Uses*6, then I would divide Total Heals by 6, Yes? And according to his logs that would be 138/6 = 23, for a total of 23 casts of LoD? Is that correct? Also, does WoL record the Total Heals from HR in a similar way or does it record HR just by the # of times it's cast?

@Xs:

And yeah, I'm glad I got to the post count where I can post links and images now, because using TO instead of @ to address people was starting to annoy me :P

But yeah, I've spent about 10 minutes staring at your equation and even though I know it makes sense, I can't *make* it make sense to me. I don't know why, but I've never been able to handle equations when they are explained with words instead of just written out in formulaic expression. It's the one area I struggle with the most, lol. I used to hand in math tests at school and leave word problems blank because I couldn't do them. I'd get everything else right, because it was all formulaic, but words + math = incomprehensible.

If you'd be willing to rewrite that in a formulaic expression for me, I'd be grateful. I keep rereading it hoping it will make sense, because I know it *does,* but just not to me. >.>

I get that you're saying that I need to take more into account than the basic HR>HR>HS rotation and even telling me what things to take into account...but if I tried to write an equation for it myself, the math would be wrong. That's why my math in my previous post was so simple. I don't know *how* to take those things into account via equations because I don't know how to form the equations. I know they need to be taken into account...I just lack the mathematical ability to do so.

[Xs]

4. I'm not amazing with math, which is why I wasn't taking other things into consideration. I stated that upfront, though. And um... yes, I am this bad with math. Would you mind rewriting that equation as an actual equation? Like an x/y = z or whatever type of thing with each coefficient described? I've never been good with combining words with math terms. To me, English and Math are two different languages and when an equation is written the way you wrote it out...I just get lost.

2* (x/6) = y, where x = fight duration (in seconds) and y = total HP benchmark to aim for, so a 10 minute fight would be 600/6 *2 = 120 HP gen ideal from all sources, it doesn't work very well with HA and other such mechanics but it gives you a general idea

Theres also, x/6 = HS benchmark, more HS HP gains than that = good, less = bad

And don't worry about being bad with Maths, I'm terrible with algebra so doing these expressions took a bit more thinking than I'd of liked :/ once you've done it a few times it becomes very easy and you just open the calculator and automatically type it so don't worry

Also the DP glyph doesn't MS, its just a flat 50% off all the base DP stats now