[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Deleted]

snip

Your uptime on SotR is really low, around 30% mostly. You don't seem to track EF and your BoG stacks either. And your usage of Holy Avenger is bad. How can you loose your SotR buff while having HA active? There where times when you only used SotR twice under the 18s of HA... o_O

[Sweepstakes9731]

our monk likes to scumbag everything - he knowingly pulls threat off me and posh any given fight to increase his dps kills him all the time but he doesnt seem to care. Im not gonna make much of an excuse here ive used the stock ui for a long time and tracked sotr and bog just by eye alone - im working to fix that as tonight ill be sitting again so ive got all the time in the world to mess around with addons/tracking - space both the monk and I cleansed ourselves but for the most part he tanks, both paladins are considered OT's by our GM.

[Teddybird]

our monk likes to scumbag everything - he knowingly pulls threat off me and posh any given fight to increase his dps kills him all the time but he doesnt seem to care. Im not gonna make much of an excuse here ive used the stock ui for a long time and tracked sotr and bog just by eye alone - im working to fix that as tonight ill be sitting again so ive got all the time in the world to mess around with addons/tracking - space both the monk and I cleansed ourselves but for the most part he tanks, both paladins are considered OT's by our GM.

Well im not into logs much, but if your trying to track stuff best bet is weakauras, which use /wa to open. Although this are very personal and everyone who uses them will have different wa to do different things try these from my wa see if they help you out. Open wa up and hit import and just copy and paste these in.

Just posted ui up in the tread before coming here so got this to hand ~
http://imageshack.us/a/img541/9704/ea93.jpg

Holy Power ~

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BoG/sotr stacks and timer ~

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Eternal Flame stuff ~

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P.S i used to have tanks do that to me in lfr/pug runs. If you SHOULD be tanking BoP him, if hes slow hell panic not knowing wtf going on. Just make sure hes not needed for at least 10sec after you do this, he will either rage or learn. The answer to him is the same, dont tank when your not ment to then.

[Thyranne]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask this but...

My guild (10 man) keeps asking me to switch to the "tank" cloak and tank legendary gem.

Should I really do it?

[Riemu2k3]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask this but...

My guild (10 man) keeps asking me to switch to the "tank" cloak and tank legendary gem.

Should I really do it?

Yes, you should do it if your guild has not enrage problems.

Legendary Tank Gem is really good in 5.4 because it is now 20% damage reduction to ALL damage (not just physical) and has a really high uptime. And the DPS Meta was nerfed to be less effective. You can still use the DPS Meta if you have tight enrage situations going on, but tank meta is usually superior.

Regarding Tank Cape, it has saved me 4-5 times during our SoO clear (almost clear..) and everytime it does, you have saved a brez or even stopped a whipe from happening. I just want to quote Daught, the Midwinter Tank cause he summed it up pretty nicely. It might be abit out of context, but he answered on a similiar question in the monk forums:

Like I said, whether or not you remember them, you have died before and cost progression for your raid team. This statement is true for any tank who has done any progression at all. Maybe it's not strictly first kill progress. Maybe it's farm on the first four bosses when you're working on Megaera, you cost 20 minutes last week and 15 minutes the week before. Regardless, you have died before you were 13/13 that the cape would've prevented, and that cost you time and that time could have been spent on progression but was instead spent on a run back.

I wasn't a psych major but I've taken enough classes and know enough about the brain that memories are basically glorified lies that you tell yourself to make you feel better. Unless you can record and point out every single progression/progress farm fight you've been on, you cannot trust what you remember, especially 4 months into the tier. In this case, our memories are even worse than usual - low % wipes stand out in your memory, whereas wipes that resulted in tank deaths are easily glossed over. You automatically have a bias when it comes to "remembering" how many low wipes vs how many tank death wipes you have. Again, I repeat - you cannot trust your memories here.

Also, to put things in perspective, lets be super generous and say that the cape proc is as much damage as the legendary proc, and lets say you do 20% the damage in your raid. So you'd need to wipe to the boss at under ~1.5% without the dps cape to say that the dps cape would've made it. And while it's not outside the realm of possibility to have a few 1.5% or lower wipes per tier, the number of times that happens is going to be pretty low, far lower than tank dead no rez wipes. And this is for a 10m - in a 25m you're looking at sub 0.7% wipes.

On top of that, a wipe at 1.5% isn't as "bad" as a wipe to a tank death. Meaning, the most important currency for killing a boss is experience/execution. Losing a fight at the last second means your raid team got almost all they could learn from that pull in. Wiping due to a premature tank death costs you much more. So in a general statistical sense, I can say with utmost confidence that regardless of your progression, raid time, raid team, skill etc., you're going to progress faster with the tank cloak than the dps cloak, by a significant enough degree that there's really no wiggle room.

Which cloak you wear, having that knowledge, is of course, your personal preference. Example: I have alts in another guild, off-server who I raid with during Aussie times in a 13/13 ten man guild. I know for a fact that doing dailies, getting coins, LFR, research, valor capping, gemming, etc. would make the toons I play there more successful and bring faster kills for the guild, yet I completely ignore them all because personal preference. I accept that I'm not doing all that I could be to further progression, but I go in with the full knowledge of what is optimal and what isn't. I'm giving my view, personal opinion if you like, as a fairly accomplished brewmaster with literally tens of thousands of hours of high end raiding/raid leading experience that there is no way in hell the dps cape comes close to the tanking one if you're interested in progression. That being said, for pugs, alt runs, my tertiary 10m guild, etc. I'll still use the dps cape, 'cause fun > progress there, but if you're serious about SoO progression and you think the dps cape is better for it, I stand by my earlier statement - you're nuts.

Edit: I fraps our kills and I also happen to keep the fraps for very low wipes in case we ever make a blooper/official video of a fight. Looking through my home computer's files (gogo remote access), I count exactly two wipes for us this last tier that were lower than 1.5%. Neither were lower than 0.7%. You can also consider that we had 16 tank deaths over 13 fights in our actual kills. Now just imagine how many tank deaths halted progression pulls before that.

[Thyranne]

The reason that I prefer the DPS cloak is not for the proc but for the haste but I'm not sure yet. I can't say that the haste really helped me cuz I was lagging horribly when we went to SoO (stopped at Thok). Hopefuly it'll be fixed this week.

[Riemu2k3]

The reason that I prefer the DPS cloak is not for the proc but for the haste but I'm not sure yet. I can't say that the haste really helped me cuz I was lagging horribly when we went to SoO (stopped at Thok). Hopefuly it'll be fixed this week.

No haste in the world can compensate for a whipe due to tank death.

[Thyranne]

No haste in the world can compensate for a whipe due to tank death.

But it does help with active mitigation :P

[Deleted]

The reason that I prefer the DPS cloak is not for the proc but for the haste but I'm not sure yet. I can't say that the haste really helped me cuz I was lagging horribly when we went to SoO (stopped at Thok). Hopefuly it'll be fixed this week.

Keep both! There are lots of fights where the tank-cloak is useless. And typically those are the fights where the DPS one shines.

[Riemu2k3]

Keep both! There are lots of fights where the tank-cloak is useless. And typically those are the fights where the DPS one shines.

Yeah but then again, the dps cloak is probably not needed also :-)

This week of Cape Procs on our kills (cba to check whipes)
- Juggernaut: 2 times
- Shamans: 1 time
- Nazgrim: 1 time
- Malkorok: 1 time my co-tank
- Spoils: 1 time my co-tank
- Thok: 1 time my co-tank
- Siegecrafter: 2 times my co-tank

Without the cape, those kills would have been whipes in most cases.
That might just be us being bad or bad luck or someone else (like healers) fucking up, but that's exactly what the tank cape is there for.

Agreed, you don't need it on every fight (Immerseus for example is such a fight). But unless I don't really need to damage, I will always stick with the tank cloak.

[gerus]

The reason that I prefer the DPS cloak is not for the proc but for the haste but I'm not sure yet. I can't say that the haste really helped me cuz I was lagging horribly when we went to SoO (stopped at Thok). Hopefuly it'll be fixed this week.

It's like 415 haste rating difference between the two. I'm not sure it's that big a deal compared to the derp protection the tanking cloak gains.

[Promdates]

Yeah but then again, the dps cloak is probably not needed also :-)

This week of Cape Procs on our kills (cba to check whipes)
- Juggernaut: 2 times
- Shamans: 1 time
- Nazgrim: 1 time
- Malkorok: 1 time my co-tank
- Spoils: 1 time my co-tank
- Thok: 1 time my co-tank
- Siegecrafter: 2 times my co-tank

Without the cape, those kills would have been whipes in most cases.
That might just be us being bad or bad luck or someone else (like healers) fucking up, but that's exactly what the tank cape is there for.

Agreed, you don't need it on every fight (Immerseus for example is such a fight). But unless I don't really need to damage, I will always stick with the tank cloak.

<troll>YOU'RE PLAYING TERRIBLY, YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN THAT SITUATION TO DIE! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE HARRUMPH HARRUMPH HARRUMPH!</troll> I'm honestly glad that you're advocating the tank cloak, perhaps people will actually listen instead of just going "BOSSES DON'T HURT, I NEVER DIE, DPS STATS ALL THE WAY!"

edit: I say this, because I advocated for the tank meta/cloak when the changes went in, and people thought I was crazy because the dps cloak is SO MUCH BETTER.

[gerus]

<troll>YOU'RE PLAYING TERRIBLY, YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN THAT SITUATION TO DIE! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE HARRUMPH HARRUMPH HARRUMPH!</troll> I'm honestly glad that you're advocating the tank cloak, perhaps people will actually listen instead of just going "BOSSES DON'T HURT, I NEVER DIE, DPS STATS ALL THE WAY!"

edit: I say this, because I advocated for the tank meta/cloak when the changes went in, and people thought I was crazy because the dps cloak is SO MUCH BETTER.

As it turns out they made progression content challenging survival wise for progression tanks... who would've thought that???? I for one welcome our tank death overlords.

[rhandric]

I run with the dps cloak because, frankly, in my raid, I'm almost always the last man standing. And if others are dying before me, me surviving due to the tank cloak isn't going to turn a wipe into a success (nor will the dps proc). That said, I have the tank cloak as well, and if I get to a fight where I die even once, you can bet that the next attempt will see me switching to the tank cloak

[Riemu2k3]

<troll>YOU'RE PLAYING TERRIBLY, YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN THAT SITUATION TO DIE! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE HARRUMPH HARRUMPH HARRUMPH!</troll> I'm honestly glad that you're advocating the tank cloak, perhaps people will actually listen instead of just going "BOSSES DON'T HURT, I NEVER DIE, DPS STATS ALL THE WAY!"

edit: I say this, because I advocated for the tank meta/cloak when the changes went in, and people thought I was crazy because the dps cloak is SO MUCH BETTER.

haha yeah I remember :-)

I was one of those ppl who at first said that choosing tank cloak is probably just something for hc progression where bosses hurt alot more. Then I read the post by Daught and checked my ToT HC logs. Memory is a tricky thing :-)

I don't plan on dropping my Cloak. I have the DPS one, but I don't really think I will use it much. Even on Farmcontent (or especially on farm content) where you begin to get lazy and stuff, that "oh-shit-i-fucked-up-but-the-ox-caught-me" is just prizeless :-)

[Deleted]

<troll>YOU'RE PLAYING TERRIBLY, YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN THAT SITUATION TO DIE! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE HARRUMPH HARRUMPH HARRUMPH!</troll> I'm honestly glad that you're advocating the tank cloak, perhaps people will actually listen instead of just going "BOSSES DON'T HURT, I NEVER DIE, DPS STATS ALL THE WAY!"

Yeah, because we all know, that the mobs all stop to attack you while the healers heal you up, when you have the tank-cloak!
/sarcasm

Why sometimes people can't behave normally without typing such... gah. >_<

[Riemu2k3]

Yeah, because we all know, that the mobs all stop to attack you while the healers heal you up, when you have the tank-cloak!
/sarcasm

Why sometimes people can't behave normally without typing such... gah. >_<

It's fine, I know what he meant :-)

[Deleted]

It's fine, I know what he meant :-)

I know that too, but this was such a low response...
There are multiple things to consider there, and for example I would never use the tank cloak on Galakras or Spoils. There isn't any huge nuke there (Well, except if you fail on the Anima adds special. But that will kill the DPSs more likely even then.), and the time between each hit is to low, to think it would reasonably save you. On other fights it just doesn't matters, and on a few the tank one is clearly the better. (Well on Garrosh... and possibly lots of HC ones)

[Deleted]

Well, there has been a clear shift in the damage pattern on bosses. I am also using the tank cloak on several fights, but that is mostly because the damage pattern has changed to such where it is actually benefitial. If this was still ToT, I would probably barely have used the tank cloak, but SoO is very different than ToT from a tank PoV.

The fights that I ended up using dps cloak on was Immersus, Norushen, Sha of Pride, Galakras and Nazgrim.
I am probably gonna use tanking cloak on Immersus if we decide to solo tank heroic to cheat the breaths.
I am still a bit conflicted about the usefulness on the tank cloak on fights like Dark Shamans, Iron Jugg, Spoils etc. Fights where you got a ton of small damage from several sources. It feels like any scenario that procs your cloak on those fights will kill you.

Lets be honest here, there are fight where the tank cloak is utterly useless, and there are fights where it is great. Any tank with a decent mindset will keep both cloaks in their bags.

The "DPS stats all the way"-mentality was a valid one in ToT, but quite obviously tanking changed a lot in SoO. That coupled with the RPPM changes to the dps LMG and cloak made those less obvious choices. If the proc rate on the cloak was not nerfed for tanks, I would have used it a lot more.

- - - Updated - - -

I know that too, but this was such a low response...
There are multiple things to consider there, and for example I would never use the tank cloak on Galakras or Spoils. There isn't any huge nuke there (Well, except if you fail on the Anima adds special. But that will kill the DPSs more likely even then.), and the time between each hit is to low, to think it would reasonably save you. On other fights it just doesn't matters, and on a few the tank one is clearly the better. (Well on Garrosh... and possibly lots of HC ones)

Yeah, there are a lot of fights that are grey areas. To me, the tank cloak is clearly better on a fight like Malkorok, but the dps cloa is also clearly better on as you mentioned, spoils and galakras, I would also put Nazgrim on that list as the tank damage is completely trivial there.

Sadly, so many people are so narrowminded about tanking they can only see black and white in our magical tanking rainbow.

[Promdates]

I know that too, but this was such a low response...
There are multiple things to consider there, and for example I would never use the tank cloak on Galakras or Spoils. There isn't any huge nuke there (Well, except if you fail on the Anima adds special. But that will kill the DPSs more likely even then.), and the time between each hit is to low, to think it would reasonably save you. On other fights it just doesn't matters, and on a few the tank one is clearly the better. (Well on Garrosh... and possibly lots of HC ones)

If you choose to use the DPS cloak on those encounters, that's your decision. The problem was people were making it out to be that the cloak will make or break their kills, while as Riemu2k3 mentioned people forget about their actual progression. Perhaps 10m is drastically different than 25 in that tank damage is marginal and doesn't matter, just like it did in ToT... or perhaps it's because you're 550 ilvl and overgear the current content already.