Why are there no brewmasters in the top guilds right now o.o

[gynshon]

I have tried out Mastery builds on a couple of fights but really hated the feel of it and in the end, I still took almost as much damage in the long run due to lack of chi for purifying. All it does is smooth out the damage and make it less spikey, but your healers will have to consistently heal you.

If your healers and DPS are good, ie: not standing in stuff then you could do a Mastery build on a couple of fights. My thoughts on Heroic versions only.

MsV:
Stone Guards - Haste
Feng - Haste
Gara'jal - Haste or Mastery. Depends on healer makeup and DPS.
Spirit Kings - Haste
Elegon - Haste
Will - Mastery

HoF:
Zorlok - Haste by far
Blade Master - Haste
Garalon - I prefer Haste
Wind Lord - Depend on your makeup. I prefer Haste on this. However, Mastery would most likely be better.
Amber Shaper - Haste
Empress - Haste

ToES:
Protector - Haste
Tsulong - Haste
Lei Shi - Mastery by far
Sha of Fear - Haste

These are my impressions. Obviously I have not killed the last 3 in HoF on Heroic etc, but we are working on Wind Lord with sub 20% wipes. Terrace obviously normal since it was released this week, but I don't see changing anything from my initial assessment.

[SurrealNight]

Even Mistweavers get short changed. However, I think this is a problem that is exacerbated in 10 mans, due to the smaller raid comp and the smaller number of CDs available.

We experienced this in the first HoF boss, after so many Verve phases we were just done for and Avert Harm is a poor comparison to other available CD's, it needs it's duration doubled at least

[Disgruntler]

Otherwise, I think Gynshon nailed it. I've been sat all this week on heroic progression on my Brewmaster simply because my cooldowns blow. I bring NO raid CDs, unlike our warrior and paladin tanks.

What raid cooldowns is this paladin packing? There's Devotion Aura... and that's about it.

Warriors have Rallying Cry... and Banner.

Monks have Avert Harm.

In terms of raid utility, Paladins have off-healing, and Monks have off-shielding through Statue. Looking at parses, you'll find monks are actually on par with paladins they tank with in terms of off-healing--and if it's a lot of physical damage incoming raid wide, that Devotion Aura ain't doin' much.

Heck, the Brewmaster's even making the other tank tankier just by putting Guards on him--and those Guards are as good as the Monk's own. Hand of Sacrifice WISHES it was an Ox Statue.

[Promdates]

Riggnaros is tanking the reavers, Ninecatz has the smaller adds.

Looks like you're right. I could have sworn I saw him roll the reavers into the traps. Guess he was just using Rocket Boots.

[gynshon]

The thing with that encounter though, the small adds can be kited easily by a monk tank. It's what we do and my job to do it, which is why you will never see me parse on it because I am kiting that entire phase lol.

[Schaden]

What raid cooldowns is this paladin packing? There's Devotion Aura... and that's about it.

Still a raid cooldown

Warriors have Rallying Cry... and Banner.

Two cooldowns!

Monks have Avert Harm.

Only Brewmasters have AH, which is too dangerous to be used while tanking even if you managed to catch more than one other person in its 10 yard area of effect

In terms of raid utility, Paladins have off-healing, and Monks have off-shielding through Statue. Looking at parses, you'll find monks are actually on par with paladins they tank with in terms of off-healing--and if it's a lot of physical damage incoming raid wide, that Devotion Aura ain't doin' much.

They also have GoAK, Divine Protection, Hand of Sac, Hand of Purity, and Divine Shield if they know how to use it right. Plus a talent that reduces the cooldown of those abilities per holy power used.

Heck, the Brewmaster's even making the other tank tankier just by putting Guards on him--and those Guards are as good as the Monk's own. Hand of Sacrifice WISHES it was an Ox Statue.

Except you can't control who gets the guard from Ox Statue. Its just as likely to go to a dps than it is a tank. I'd rather have an ability I can control when and to whom its applied, personally.

---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 09:10 PM ----------

We experienced this in the first HoF boss, after so many Verve phases we were just done for and Avert Harm is a poor comparison to other available CD's, it needs it's duration doubled at least

Nah, it just needs to have its radius not be 10 fucking yards.

[Disgruntler]

Still a raid cooldown

ONE raid cooldown. Which is as many as Monks.

Two cooldowns!

They don't have any raid healing however--I don't begrudge them this.

Only Brewmasters have AH, which is too dangerous to be used while tanking even if you managed to catch more than one other person in its 10 yard area of effect

The AoE does need work, and they need some way to mitigate the damage intake a bit more, I do agree.

They also have GoAK, Divine Protection, Hand of Sac, Hand of Purity, and Divine Shield if they know how to use it right. Plus a talent that reduces the cooldown of those abilities per holy power used.

Personal cooldown, personal cooldown, single target cooldown, single target cooldown, personal cooldown.

None of these are raid cooldowns.

Except you can't control who gets the guard from Ox Statue. Its just as likely to go to a dps than it is a tank. I'd rather have an ability I can control when and to whom its applied, personally.

I'd rather have both.

Monks have both.

What's the problem?

[Schaden]

ONE raid cooldown. Which is as many as Monks.

And AH is garbage as a raid cooldown, just like Zen Meditation.

They don't have any raid healing however--I don't begrudge them this.

And we're talking about cooldowns, not healing.

The AoE does need work, and they need some way to mitigate the damage intake a bit more, I do agree.

So you agree is lack luster and that monks are missing something from their toolkits. So we're on the same page.

Personal cooldown, personal cooldown, single target cooldown, single target cooldown, personal cooldown.

None of these are raid cooldowns.

Again, what Im talking about is cooldown kits as a whole. Of which monks are severely lacking.

I'd rather have both.

Monks have both.

What's the problem?

Except we dont.

[Justwait]

Looks like you're right. I could have sworn I saw him roll the reavers into the traps. Guess he was just using Rocket Boots.

perhaps you got mistaken by the video from Method? I also tanked on that fight and tanked the reavers, and did as you said

[Disgruntler]

snip

juuuuust keep moving them goalposts. Not the first person to do it in this thread. First we're talking raid cooldowns, then raid utility, oh but only things that have cooldowns, oh but not the rest of their utility, oh but let's ignore what monks do have because it doesn't fit in my perfect pity-me picture.

You want to discuss this fairly, that's fine, but you don't get to focus on one thing when it supports your point while ignoring the context it's all in, just because you can't target your chi wave like some of us can.

[Promdates]

perhaps you got mistaken by the video from Method? I also tanked on that fight and tanked the reavers, and did as you said

Perhaps, although, I was pretty sure it was the BL one that was posted on MMO-C earlier this week.

[Deleted]

Monk tanks are pretty good, the only bad thing is raid cd's like many people mention here

Zen meditation is utter shit and Avert Harm is very situational.


Good reasons to bring monk tank is for dps and guard.

[siccora]

Well, we have raidhealing and selfhealing (guard, chi burst, chi wave, expel harm). in combination with the self guard it's fair. but there is nothing special about the brewmaster imo. the stagger mechanic is a good idea, but without it, we would get more dmg then any other tank class, so it's not a feature, it's a must-have. if we would have the stagger mechanic PLUS something to lower our incoming dmg, this would make the brewmaster competitive tank. i'm not saying he is bad, i'm saying he is like any other tank, nothing special and with LESS raid CDs.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

DPS come first, Tanks last. It takes longer to master a tank, their gear tends to be rarer, and they require special gems, glyphs, reforming, enchants... add that to leveling one, and you can see why we haven't seen many monks in general yet.

[Disgruntler]

Well, we have raidhealing and selfhealing (guard, chi burst, chi wave, expel harm). in combination with the self guard it's fair. but there is nothing special about the brewmaster imo. the stagger mechanic is a good idea, but without it, we would get more dmg then any other tank class, so it's not a feature, it's a must-have. if we would have the stagger mechanic PLUS something to lower our incoming dmg, this would make the brewmaster competitive tank. i'm not saying he is bad, i'm saying he is like any other tank, nothing special and with LESS raid CDs.

At baseline, sure, but because of the way shuffle is designed, and because of its duration, you can do things that other tanks NEED cooldowns in order to do without evoking cooldowns. Remember that shuffle uptime gathered is shuffle uptime you don't need to gather later, so you can build quite a buffer while not actively tanking and then use that built shuffle time to carry you through while you spend chi on other things like more purifying brew and chi waves.

Regardless of all that, the facts are that many top guilds ARE utilizing brewmasters, and members of those guilds have posted in this thread. Instead of coming out with excuses why monks aren't being used in content they ARE getting used in, wouldn't it be more prudent to talk about why those guilds used those monks that they did?

[Deleted]

DPS come first, Tanks last. It takes longer to master a tank, their gear tends to be rarer, and they require special gems, glyphs, reforming, enchants... add that to leveling one, and you can see why we haven't seen many monks in general yet.

And the fact that they have no raid-wise cds or solo cds to use on other raid members but themselves.
Sure, guard is very good but it's too random.


Monks also give less possible raid buffs than the other tank specs

All tanks: Weakened Blows

Warriors: Stamina/Attack Power + Weakened Armor
Paladins: Stats/Mastery
Druids: Stats + Crit + Weakened Armor
DK: Attack Power + Cast speed slow (could skip the cast speed, doesn't matter much in pve)
Monks: Stats

It may not hurt 25man raids but it can be very annoying in 10man

[Skallfraktur]

Might have something to do with top guilds not wanting their tanks to share gear with their dps if they don't have to.

[Gorsameth]

Might have something to do with top guilds not wanting their tanks to share gear with their dps if they don't have to.

If that was true there would never have been a druid tank either.

[Valsh]

Avert harm is in dire need of a range buff, 10 yards is really bad design for raid cooldown that is centered around a tank.

[Skallfraktur]

If that was true there would never have been a druid tank either.

Lots of guilds had guardian druids as tanks prior to MoP. There's a difference to keep playing the same class and rerolling another tank class that shares gear with dps.