Page 21 of 81 FirstFirst ...
11
19
20
21
22
23
31
71
... LastLast
  1. #401
    The Lightbringer N-7's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    3,572
    Quote Originally Posted by Mercadi View Post
    I get your point, posting that video was indeed a foolish thing to do. Although, given how much each point of view on the conflict polarizes media, any news article could be reduced to propaganda (would only take a bit more effort to do that with an article coming from a "respectable" media source).
    Fair enough and thanks for recognising that video as what it truly is.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    So you agree that in a such conflict it is really hard (if not impossible) to obtain an accurate representation of the situation unless you've experienced it first hand? I probably could come up with a source claiming that Israel education system promotes intolerance towards Arabs.

    And guess what I found this Pro-Palestine source: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...854285479.html , Pro-Israel source: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/a-goo...arabs-1.459832 , Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_..._against_Arabs

    All basically saying that the Israeli education system promotes hate against Arabs even Arabs living in Israel. Does that make it true? I don't really know but it certainly seems convincing if even pro-Israel websites are claiming that it is happening.
    Haaretz is NOT a pro Israel source. It is a communist-leftist paper. These guys hate themselves and their own country. In fact, their sole mission is to try and fight Israel as we know it, in any way possible, much like the Arabs do but for different reasons.

    If anything, Haaretz is pro-arab. I really don't understand why Mercadi didn't tell you so. It's like you are trying to present PRAVDA as a pro-American source.

    In fact, if Haaretz said it, then it's most probably NOT the case. This is what experience taught me, as the people at Haaretz typically exaggerate or twist and bend news stories to fit their communist/leftist outlook.

    EDIT: If you wanted to read a well-respected and unbiased newspaper, try Jerusalem Post.
    Veteran vanilla player - I was 31 back in 2005 when I started playing WoW - Nostalrius raider with a top raid guild.

  3. #403
    The Patient
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cairo, Egypt.
    Posts
    260
    http://world.time.com/2012/11/15/roc...ls-3-israelis/

    if anything, this shows that both sides need some proper spanking from the international community. people need to stop taking sides, and start realizing that if nothing is done, this can continue on happening for decades to come...

  4. #404
    Brewmaster soulcrusher's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    A Black Land of Sorcery and Nameless Horror
    Posts
    1,402
    personally im with the noted jewish thinker, noam chomsky on this

    Quote Originally Posted by NoamChomsky

    http://chomsky.info/articles/20121104.htm

    Impressions of Gaza
    Noam Chomsky
    chomsky.info, November 4, 2012
    Even a single night in jail is enough to give a taste of what it means to be under the total control of some external force. And it hardly takes more than a day in Gaza to begin to appreciate what it must be like to try to survive in the world’s largest open-air prison, where a million and a half people, in the most densely populated area of the world, are constantly subject to random and often savage terror and arbitrary punishment, with no purpose other than to humiliate and degrade, and with the further goal of ensuring that Palestinian hopes for a decent future will be crushed and that the overwhelming global support for a diplomatic settlement that will grant these rights will be nullified.

    The intensity of this commitment on the part of the Israeli political leadership has been dramatically illustrated just in the past few days, as they warn that they will “go crazy” if Palestinian rights are given limited recognition at the UN. That is not a new departure. The threat to “go crazy” (“nishtagea”) is deeply rooted, back to the Labor governments of the 1950s, along with the related “Samson Complex”: we will bring down the Temple walls if crossed. It was an idle threat then; not today.

    The purposeful humiliation is also not new, though it constantly takes new forms. Thirty years ago political leaders, including some of the most noted hawks, submitted to Prime Minister Begin a shocking and detailed account of how settlers regularly abuse Palestinians in the most depraved manner and with total impunity. The prominent military-political analyst Yoram Peri wrote with disgust that the army’s task is not to defend the state, but “to demolish the rights of innocent people just because they are Araboushim (“niggers,” “kikes”) living in territories that God promised to us.”


    Gazans have been selected for particularly cruel punishment. It is almost miraculous that people can sustain such an existence. How they do so was described thirty years ago in an eloquent memoir by Raja Shehadeh (The Third Way), based on his work as a lawyer engaged in the hopeless task of trying to protect elementary rights within a legal system designed to ensure failure, and his personal experience as a Samid, “a steadfast one,” who watches his home turned into a prison by brutal occupiers and can do nothing but somehow “endure.”


    Since Shehadeh wrote, the situation has become much worse. The Oslo agreements, celebrated with much pomp in 1993, determined that Gaza and the West Bank are a single territorial entity. By then the US and Israel had already initiated their program of separating them fully from one another, so as to block a diplomatic settlement and punish the Araboushim in both territories.


    Punishment of Gazans became still more severe in January 2006, when they committed a major crime: they voted the “wrong way” in the first free election in the Arab world, electing Hamas. Demonstrating their passionate “yearning for democracy,” the US and Israel, backed by the timid European Union, at once imposed a brutal siege, along with intensive military attacks. The US also turned at once to standard operating procedure when some disobedient population elects the wrong government: prepare a military coup to restore order.


    Gazans committed a still greater crime a year later by blocking the coup attempt, leading to a sharp escalation of the siege and military attacks. These culminated in winter 2008-9, with Operation Cast Lead, one of the most cowardly and vicious exercises of military force in recent memory, as a defenseless civilian population, trapped with no way to escape, was subjected to relentless attack by one of the world’s most advanced military systems relying on US arms and protected by US diplomacy. An unforgettable eyewitness account of the slaughter — “infanticide” in their words — is given by the two courageous Norwegian doctors who worked at Gaza’s main hospital during the merciless assault, Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse, in their remarkable book Eyes in Gaza.


    President-elect Obama was unable to say a word, apart from reiterating his heartfelt sympathy for children under attack — in the Israeli town Sderot. The carefully planned assault was brought to an end right before his inauguration, so that he could then say that now is the time to look forward, not backward, the standard refuge of criminals.


    Of course, there were pretexts — there always are. The usual one, trotted out when needed, is “security”: in this case, home-made rockets from Gaza. As is commonly the case, the pretext lacked any credibility. In 2008 a truce was established between Israel and Hamas. The Israeli government formally recognizes that Hamas observed it fully. Not a single Hamas rocket was fired until Israel broke the truce under cover of the US election on November 4 2008, invading Gaza on ludicrous grounds and killing half a dozen Hamas members. The Israeli government was advised by its highest intelligence officials that the truce could be renewed by easing the criminal blockade and ending military attacks. But the government of Ehud Olmert, reputedly a dove, chose to reject these options, preferring to resort to its huge comparative advantage in violence: Operation Cast Lead. The basic facts are reviewed once again by foreign policy analyst Jerome Slater in the current issue of the Harvard-MIT journal International Security.


    The pattern of bombing under Cast Lead was carefully analyzed by the highly informed and internationally respected Gazan human rights advocate Raji Sourani. He points out that the bombing was concentrated in the north, targeting defenseless civilians in the most densely populated areas, with no possible military pretext. The goal, he suggests, may have been to drive the intimidated population to the south, near the Egyptian border. But the Samidin stayed put, despite the avalanche of US-Israeli terror.

    A further goal might have been to drive them beyond. Back to the earliest days of the Zionist colonization it was argued across much of the spectrum that Arabs have no real reason to be in Palestine; they can be just as happy somewhere else, and should leave — politely “transferred,” the doves suggested. This is surely no small concern in Egypt, and perhaps a reason why Egypt does not open the border freely to civilians or even to desperately needed materials

    Sourani and other knowledgeable sources observe that the discipline of the Samidin conceals a powder keg, which might explode any time, unexpectedly, as the first Intifada did in Gaza in 1989 after years of miserable repression that elicited no notice or concern,

    Merely to mention one of innumerable cases, shortly before the outbreak of the Intifada a Palestinian girl, Intissar al-Atar, was shot and killed in a schoolyard by a resident of a nearby Jewish settlement. He was one of the several thousand Israelis settlers brought to Gaza in violation of international law and protected by a huge army presence, taking over much of the land and scarce water of the Strip and living “lavishly in twenty-two settlements in the midst of 1.4 million destitute Palestinians,” as the crime is described by Israeli scholar Avi Raz. The murderer of the schoolgirl, Shimon Yifrah, was arrested, but quickly released on bail when the Court determined that “the offense is not severe enough” to warrant detention. The judge commented that Yifrah only intended to shock the girl by firing his gun at her in a schoolyard, not to kill her, so “this is not a case of a criminal person who has to be punished, deterred, and taught a lesson by imprisoning him.” Yifrah was given a 7-month suspended sentence, while settlers in the courtroom broke out in song and dance. And the usual silence reigned. After all, it is routine.

    And so it is. As Yifrah was freed, the Israeli press reported that an army patrol fired into the yard of a school for boys aged 6 to 12 in a West Bank refugee camp, wounding five children, allegedly intending only “to shock them.” There were no charges, and the event again attracted no attention. It was just another episode in the program of “illiteracy as punishment,” the Israeli press reported, including the closing of schools, use of gas bombs, beating of students with rifle butts, barring of medical aid for victims; and beyond the schools a reign of more severe brutality, becoming even more savage during the Intifada, under the orders of Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin, another admired dove.

    My initial impression, after a visit of several days, was amazement, not only at the ability to go on with life, but also at the vibrancy and vitality among young people, particularly at the university, where I spent much of my time at an international conference. But there too one can detect signs that the pressure may become too hard to bear. Reports indicate that among young men there is simmering frustration, recognition that under the US-Israeli occupation the future holds nothing for them. There is only so much that caged animals can endure, and there may be an eruption, perhaps taking ugly forms — offering an opportunity for Israeli and western apologists to self-righteously condemn the people who are culturally backward, as Mitt Romney insightfully explained.

    Gaza has the look of a typical third world society, with pockets of wealth surrounded by hideous poverty. It is not, however, “undeveloped.” Rather it is “de-developed,” and very systematically so, to borrow the terms of Sara Roy, the leading academic specialist on Gaza. The Gaza Strip could have become a prosperous Mediterranean region, with rich agriculture and a flourishing fishing industry, marvelous beaches and, as discovered a decade ago, good prospects for extensive natural gas supplies within its territorial waters.

    By coincidence or not, that is when Israel intensified its naval blockade, driving fishing boats toward shore, by now to 3 miles or less.

    The favorable prospects were aborted in 1948, when the Strip had to absorb a flood of Palestinian refugees who fled in terror or were forcefully expelled from what became Israel, in some cases expelled months after the formal cease-fire.

    In fact, they were being expelled even four years later, as reported in Ha’aretz (25.12.2008), in a thoughtful study by Beni Tziper on the history of Israeli Ashkelon back to the Canaanites. In 1953, he reports, there was a “cool calculation that it was necessary to cleanse the region of Arabs.” The original name, Majdal, had already been “Judaized” to today’s Ashkelon, regular practice.

    That was in 1953, when there was no hint of military necessity. Tziper himself was born in 1953, and while walking in the remnants of the old Arab sector, he reflects that “it is really difficult for me, really difficult, to realize that while my parents were celebrating my birth, other people were being loaded on trucks and expelled from their homes.”

    Israel’s 1967 conquests and their aftermath administered further blows. Then came the terrible crimes already mentioned, continuing to the present day.

    The signs are easy to see, even on a brief visit. Sitting in a hotel near the shore, one can hear the machine gun fire of Israeli gunboats driving fishermen out of Gaza’s territorial waters and towards shore, so they are compelled to fish in waters that are heavily polluted because of US-Israeli refusal to allow reconstruction of the sewage and power systems that they destroyed.

    The Oslo Accords laid plans for two desalination plants, a necessity in this arid region. One, an advanced facility, was built: in Israel. The second one is in Khan Yunis, in the south of Gaza. The engineer in charge of trying to obtain potable water for the population explained that this plant was designed so that it cannot use sea water, but must rely on underground water, a cheaper process, which further degrades the meager aquifer, guaranteeing severe problems in the future. Even with that, water is severely limited. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which cares for refugees (but not other Gazans), recently released a report warning that damage to the aquifer may soon become “irreversible,” and that without remedial action quickly, by 2020 Gaza may not be a “liveable place.”

    Israel permits concrete to enter for UNRWA projects, but not for Gazans engaged in the huge reconstruction needs. The limited heavy equipment mostly lies idle, since Israel does not permit materials for repair. All of this is part of the general program described by Israeli official Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, after Palestinians failed to follow orders in the 2006 elections: “The idea,” he said, “is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.” That would not look good.

    And the plan is being scrupulously followed. Sara Roy has provided extensive evidence in her scholarly studies. Recently, after several years of effort, the Israeli human rights organization Gisha succeeded to obtain a court order for the government to release its records detailing plans for the diet, and how they are executed. Israel-based journalist Jonathan Cook summarizes them: “Health officials provided calculations of the minimum number of calories needed by Gaza’s 1.5 million inhabitants to avoid malnutrition. Those figures were then translated into truckloads of food Israel was supposed to allow in each day ... an average of only 67 trucks — much less than half of the minimum requirement — entered Gaza daily. This compared to more than 400 trucks before the blockade began.” And even this estimate is overly generous, UN relief officials report.

    The result of imposing the diet, Mideast scholar Juan Cole observes, is that “[a]bout ten percent of Palestinian children in Gaza under 5 have had their growth stunted by malnutrition ... in addition, anemia is widespread, affecting over two-thirds of infants, 58.6 percent of schoolchildren, and over a third of pregnant mothers.” The US and Israel want to ensure that nothing more than bare survival is possible.

    “What has to be kept in mind,” observes Raji Sourani, “is that the occupation and the absolute closure is an ongoing attack on the human dignity of the people in Gaza in particular and all Palestinians generally. It is systematic degradation, humiliation, isolation and fragmentation of the Palestinian people.” The conclusion is confirmed by many other sources. In one of the world’s leading medical journals, The Lancet, a visiting Stanford physician, appalled by what he witnessed, describes Gaza as “something of a laboratory for observing an absence of dignity,” a condition that has “devastating” effects on physical, mental, and social wellbeing. “The constant surveillance from the sky, collective punishment through blockade and isolation, the intrusion into homes and communications, and restrictions on those trying to travel, or marry, or work make it difficult to live a dignified life in Gaza.” The Araboushim must be taught not to raise their heads.

    There were hopes that the new Morsi government in Egypt, less in thrall to Israel than the western-backed Mubarak dictatorship, might open the Rafah crossing, the sole access to the outside for trapped Gazans that is not subject to direct Israeli control. There has been slight opening, but not much. Journalist Laila el-Haddad writes that the re-opening under Morsi, “is simply a return to status quo of years past: only Palestinians carrying an Israeli-approved Gaza ID card can use Rafah Crossing,” excluding a great many Palestinians, including el-Haddad’s family, where only one spouse has a card.

    Furthermore, she continues, “the crossing does not lead to the West Bank, nor does it allow for the passage of goods, which are restricted to the Israeli-controlled crossings and subject to prohibitions on construction materials and export.” The restricted Rafah crossing does not change the fact that “Gaza remains under tight maritime and aerial siege, and continues to be closed off to the Palestinians’ cultural, economic, and academic capitals in the rest of the [occupied territories], in violation of US-Israeli obligations under the Oslo Accords.”

    The effects are painfully evident. In the Khan Yunis hospital, the director, who is also chief of surgery, describes with anger and passion how even medicines are lacking for relief of suffering patients, as well as simple surgical equipment, leaving doctors helpless and patients in agony. Personal stories add vivid texture to the general disgust one feels at the obscenity of the harsh occupation. One example is the testimony of a young woman who despaired that her father, who would have been proud that she was the first woman in the refugee camp to gain an advanced degree, had “passed away after 6 months of fighting cancer aged 60 years. Israeli occupation denied him a permit to go to Israeli hospitals for treatment. I had to suspend my study, work and life and go to set next to his bed. We all sat including my brother the physician and my sister the pharmacist, all powerless and hopeless watching his suffering. He died during the inhumane blockade of Gaza in summer 2006 with very little access to health service. I think feeling powerless and hopeless is the most killing feeling that human can ever have. It kills the spirit and breaks the heart. You can fight occupation but you cannot fight your feeling of being powerless. You can't even dissolve that feeling.”

    Disgust at the obscenity, compounded with guilt: it is within our power to bring the suffering to an end and allow the Samidin to enjoy the lives of peace and dignity that they deserve.

    Noam Chomsky visited the Gaza Strip on October 25-30, 2012.

  5. #405
    Noam chomsky....no wonder you are such a _ _ _ _ _ _.

    Infracted: Please, keep responses constructive and refrain from posting simply to insult or insinuate insulting other posters.
    Last edited by mmocf558c230a5; 2012-11-15 at 12:13 PM.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by rnbwtrout View Post
    i admit its an idealistic idea. but tell me, whats to stop a smart palestinian from just moving to one of the neighboring arab countries and say i've had enough. im going to start a new life in peace? i'll tell you what's stopping them: pride and religious fervor, 2 of the most stupid and irrational emotions to humans.

    the so-called arab league could and still can solve this whole problem by taking in and resettling the palestinians in arab lands. imo, they're worse than the jews. they went to war with israel on behalf of the palestinians, but when they lost the war, they just completely turned their backs on the people they were supposedly championing.

    it's like if somehow the UK were to be overran by a foreign power and the U.S., Canada and Australia were to say: "FU british citizens; we aint gonna help you a damn bit or resettle any of you into our countries." that would never freaken happen. but that's exactly what the so-called "arab league" is doing to the palestinian people.

    Their isn't a single country that will accept Palestinians refugees in masses as it's own citizen because it would be a stupid mistake. Currently the Palestinians that where removed from area's that is currently in total control of Israel live in refugee camps in Jordan and they will live their till everything the entire situation is settled.

    Let say that Jordan accepted all of these refugees, do you have any idea how many they are? By accepting all of them as citizens the government will also have to take care of them, if it was just a few then it wouldn't be a problem but as far as I know the amount of refugees is well over a million people.

    Just imagine having a million more citizens overnight, what it would do in terms of cost and logistics because if they citizens of your country you have to make sure everybody gets medical treatment, gets housing, children gets education and other things which would ruin any country.

    Also this is ignoring another argument because the moment Palestians admit that they won't ever get back is also the moment you legitimize the rule of the foreign invader.

  7. #407
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Langley, London, Undisclosed Locations
    Posts
    11,355
    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    thats your perception. others see it as the israelis waging war on another state because they dont agree with their govt. the brittish gov saw initial Israeli founders as terrorists if you want to play that game.
    Newsflash... there are many people that see Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorists and thugs... personally I see them as that, freedom fighters? really? the UN resolutions about stopping the fighting with hamas and hezbollah aren't worth the paper they are written on... Why you ask... because Hamas and Hezbollah would still attack, would still terrorize Israel. Until Hamas and Hezbollah, and by extension Iran, stop the aggression you MIGHT get some Israeli cooperation.

    Fact is, and will remain, as long as Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran continue to terrorize and attack Israel then I will support Israel in this fight.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 06:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Seja Victrix View Post
    Almost immediately Israel got into a fight with all of its neighbours, and seized control of far more land than it had been given, including the whole of Jerusalem, and then kept it. This is why the UN does not recognise Israel's borders. Israel forced the Palestinians into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. They surrounded the Gaza Strip with a massive concrete and chain link perimeter wall, and blockaded it, and left the Palestinians to die there, because the Palestinians have consistently objected to having their land stolen.
    Love how you glossed over 5 countries attacking Isreal as a 'fight'... please... save your dishonesty for folks that cant read.


    Added: If Israeli civilians are legitimate targets, ie. perfectly acceptable to fire rockets into their homes and schools, subject to being blown up while riding in busses and while shopping, then I would have to say that makes Palestinian civilians in Gaza legitimate targets as well. Time to play by the same rules on both sides... Seriously.
    Last edited by Seranthor; 2012-11-15 at 12:20 PM.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  8. #408
    Deleted
    Reading the paper today, I had to get through at least half of the article to find the comment stating that the Israeli attack was in response to 200 missiles being launched around a week prior to the air strikes, and that was maybe 2 sentences, rest was commenting on the attack. I would say that is beyond bias, and no wonder there is the criticism of Israel when the media is so slanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seja Victrix View Post
    Probably because it's not Israeli territory at all, it's Palestinian territory which was stolen from them.
    Israel was created after WW2 to give the Jews a state, which they'd wanted for a long time, (and to get them out of Europe, but nobody likes to bring that up). This state was carved out of the British mandate of Palestine. Its capital was to be Tel Aviv. Jerusalem was to be a neutral city administered by the United Nations just like Trieste and Danzig.
    Almost immediately Israel got into a fight with all of its neighbours, and seized control of far more land than it had been given, including the whole of Jerusalem, and then kept it. This is why the UN does not recognise Israel's borders. Israel forced the Palestinians into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. They surrounded the Gaza Strip with a massive concrete and chain link perimeter wall, and blockaded it, and left the Palestinians to die there, because the Palestinians have consistently objected to having their land stolen.
    When the Palestinians fire a few rockets out of their concentration camp to show they're not all dead, and that they still object to what's happened, they're labelled terrorists, because if you're fighting to take back your own land you're a terrorist now, apparently.
    Oh, fun fact, vast majority of Palestinians are in favour of a two state solution and don't want Israel destroyed, they simply want a return to the borders which were agreed on after WW2 when Israel was created. Of course Israel won't do that because they have a hold on all the best land now, and want to keep it.
    I Read that and think what a load of bull.
    It became a British Mandate end of World War ONE.Jews were however present prior to World War ONE and post World War ONE Jes moved back to Israel (even prior to nazi party)
    Following World War TWO the state was split the population into the Jewish and Arab States, for when the British withdraw.
    14 May 1948: British forces Withdrew forming the two states
    15 May 1948: Egypt, Syria,Jordan and Iraq all invades Israel.
    Year later the Arabs lost the war. Resulting in Israel claiming lands from their ATTACKERS to use as the time as a no mans land protecting themselves.
    The wall and fences were build in response to suicide bombers having attack hospitals, schools, and bus stops. These are not even military targets. As such Israel sealed its borders to control Palestinian access into Israel.

    And While as you say the vast majority of Palestinians favour the two state solution, that really doesn't mean much the the political party in power SUPPORT the destruction of Israel and its people. No wonder Israel aren't willing to give ground on any deal. Also large parts of the 'best land' that Israel claimed was actually desert, Israel built on the land and developed it into a habital area.If the give that land back either Palestine should pay for the landwhich was developed or Israel should demolish it and take back THEIR building materials to use when the rebuildin a new area (and the area will unlikely ever be developed by palestine so them having the land would make no difference)

    To those who mention anything about 'Well prior to end of World War One,it was Palestine'. It wasn't it was part of Turkey. IF you keep going back it was actually a Jewish state which was (to use your words) STOLEN by Muslim states , so you could actually claim that the land is being reclaimed by Israel.

  9. #409
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Langley, London, Undisclosed Locations
    Posts
    11,355
    Quote Originally Posted by Madkitty View Post
    Reading the paper today, I had to get through at least half of the article to find the comment stating that the Israeli attack was in response to 200 missiles being launched around a week prior to the air strikes, and that was maybe 2 sentences, rest was commenting on the attack. I would say that is beyond bias, and no wonder there is the criticism of Israel when the media is so slanted.



    I Read that and think what a load of bull.
    It became a British Mandate end of World War ONE.Jews were however present prior to World War ONE and post World War ONE Jes moved back to Israel (even prior to nazi party)
    Following World War TWO the state was split the population into the Jewish and Arab States, for when the British withdraw.
    14 May 1948: British forces Withdrew forming the two states
    15 May 1948: Egypt, Syria,Jordan and Iraq all invades Israel.
    Year later the Arabs lost the war. Resulting in Israel claiming lands from their ATTACKERS to use as the time as a no mans land protecting themselves.
    The wall and fences were build in response to suicide bombers having attack hospitals, schools, and bus stops. These are not even military targets. As such Israel sealed its borders to control Palestinian access into Israel.

    And While as you say the vast majority of Palestinians favour the two state solution, that really doesn't mean much the the political party in power SUPPORT the destruction of Israel and its people. No wonder Israel aren't willing to give ground on any deal. Also large parts of the 'best land' that Israel claimed was actually desert, Israel built on the land and developed it into a habital area.If the give that land back either Palestine should pay for the landwhich was developed or Israel should demolish it and take back THEIR building materials to use when the rebuildin a new area (and the area will unlikely ever be developed by palestine so them having the land would make no difference)

    To those who mention anything about 'Well prior to end of World War One,it was Palestine'. It wasn't it was part of Turkey. IF you keep going back it was actually a Jewish state which was (to use your words) STOLEN by Muslim states , so you could actually claim that the land is being reclaimed by Israel.
    Madkitty, those supporting Hamas and Hezbollah will gloss over all of what you posted, because Israel is evil and must be pushed back. Their idea of a 2 state solution is the states of Palestine and the state of Israel being 'wiped off the map'

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  10. #410
    Bloodsail Admiral vastx's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,014
    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    as reeve said, i really dont know where you are getting this idea. the media and politics here are overwhelmingly pro-israel, to the point of absurdity honestly. you cant hardly voice protest over israel doing something fucked up (which they sometimes do) without someone calling you an anti-semite.

    most of us just wish they would figure something out so everybody can get along down there
    No..no. As much as some people would like to think they go against the grain, they don't. A good majority on the left/far left despise Israel. The blind support of Palestine is rampant in academia.

  11. #411
    Pandaren Monk Mnevis's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Buckeye State
    Posts
    1,813
    Quote Originally Posted by Madkitty View Post
    To those who mention anything about 'Well prior to end of World War One,it was Palestine'. It wasn't it was part of Turkey. IF you keep going back it was actually a Jewish state which was (to use your words) STOLEN by Muslim states , so you could actually claim that the land is being reclaimed by Israel.
    It was stolen from Israel long before Islam existed, let alone Muslim states. Israel has existed as an independent entity for about five hundred years combined, in between occupations and exiles, and you have to go back a couple thousand years to find when the nation owned the land (in the international sense) before '48.

    Yeah, those nations attacked Israel in response to her declaration of independence, and got trounced, but that land? It wasn't claimed from belligerent nations, it was claimed from average Abdul working his olive grove that just happened to be on some land Israel wanted. You can argue that Abdul is SOL at that point, because he and his neighbors should have stood up for themselves (though I think there was some heavy favoritism in which side was allowed paramilitaries and weaponry in the Mandate), and that Israel's might made right, but you can't argue that Israel has used that might to come to any agreement. Bit by bit, settlement by settlement, they're still subtly (sort of) exercising might makes right.

    Seran, straw-manning people who are critical of Israel's actions is pointless. I can see that both sides think their actions are a retaliation. Israel assassinates a Palestinian leader/terrorist (and probably kills a few children accidentally), so Hamas fires rockets at the civilians/occupiers, so Israel bombs a building, so Hamas kidnaps a soldier, so Israel ... If your critique of the situation relies on who threw the first stone, seventy years ago, then I don't think it's a profitable one. I don't think either side throwing stones is profitable, I don't like Hamas and wish the Palestinians could see outside their situation enough to realize that they're only hurting themselves. In a broader sense, I think the same applies to the right in Israel, except they're the ones with the actual power.

  12. #412
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    28,800
    Quote Originally Posted by vastx View Post
    No..no. As much as some people would like to think they go against the grain, they don't. A good majority on the left/far left despise Israel. The blind support of Palestine is rampant in academia.
    If that were true, politicians wouldn't all be having the instant knee-jerk reaction to support Israel no matter what that you see any time they're questioned on the issue.

    Also, if the media here were slanted against Israel, they would be putting the emphasis of their reporting on Israel's attacks on Gaza and the civilian casualties being incurred. Instead, the narrative (correctly) says that the Israelis are responding to rocket attacks from Gaza with precision artillery and airstrikes, and mostly we don't hear about the collateral damage.
    Last edited by Reeve; 2012-11-15 at 02:15 PM.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  13. #413
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Langley, London, Undisclosed Locations
    Posts
    11,355
    Quote Originally Posted by Mnevis View Post

    Seran, straw-manning people who are critical of Israel's actions is pointless. I can see that both sides think their actions are a retaliation. Israel assassinates a Palestinian leader/terrorist (and probably kills a few children accidentally), so Hamas fires rockets at the civilians/occupiers, so Israel bombs a building, so Hamas kidnaps a soldier, so Israel ... If your critique of the situation relies on who threw the first stone, seventy years ago, then I don't think it's a profitable one. I don't think either side throwing stones is profitable, I don't like Hamas and wish the Palestinians could see outside their situation enough to realize that they're only hurting themselves. In a broader sense, I think the same applies to the right in Israel, except they're the ones with the actual power.
    I would LOVE both sides to comply with Oslo I and II.. BUT, that means Hamas, Hezbollah, and the nations in the region have to do things they are just hell bent not to do, specifically acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by vastx View Post
    No..no. As much as some people would like to think they go against the grain, they don't. A good majority on the left/far left despise Israel. The blind support of Palestine is rampant in academia.
    Your living in fantasy land, blind support of Palestine? LOL I guess why that's why we send Israel so much support?

  15. #415
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    24,644
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rvested-organs
    Nice one Israel...

    Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend
    Israel demanded that Sweden condemn the Aftonbladet article, calling it an antisemitic "blood libel".
    Last edited by Bakis; 2012-11-15 at 03:11 PM.

  16. #416
    "Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend"

    "Israel demanded that Sweden condemn the Aftonbladet article, calling it an antisemitic "blood libel"."


    How can it be libel, if they admitted to it being true?

    /confused

  17. #417
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    24,644
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    "Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend"

    "Israel demanded that Sweden condemn the Aftonbladet article, calling it an antisemitic "blood libel"."


    How can it be libel, if they admitted to it being true?

    /confused

    First, it presumably ended.
    The blood libel comment was when this story broke 2009 in a Swedish newspaper and the israeli government went on a rampage denying it insinuating that the newspaper story was anti semitic, the standard card they play when someone object about anything towards them.

    Seems they lied their asses off as so often.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2012-11-15 at 03:56 PM.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    And because it can't be blamed on America, nobody gives a damn.

    Is that more or less accurate?
    100% accurate.

    It is only news and worthy of reporting when the US/Israel/Western Europe can be held responsible in some way.

  19. #419
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,978
    it is newsworthy because we can relate to it, we share a style of living/culture

    and i´m not a big fan of war, i listened to the storys of my grandparents and people of their age and i don´t want anyone to have to go through something similiar
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    Your living in fantasy land, blind support of Palestine? LOL I guess why that's why we send Israel so much support?
    He said in academia. Academics don't decide if Israel receives support from the US, fortunately.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •