Gaza rocket fire resumes

[Hughes]

Illegal settlers are not citizens. They cannot, by definition, be innocent.

So that's how you justify more deaths? By simply saying 'oh well its done illegally so they are not innocent. Yup, bomb them.'

[Zhangfei]

So that's how you justify more deaths? By simply saying 'oh well its done illegally so they are not innocent. Yup, bomb them.'

I never justified it. I merely pointed out I do not support the death of innocents.

Hamas don't "bomb" anybody. That's the luxury of mass-murderers with advanced militaries - unless you mean dirty or suicide bombs. That says a lot about Israel that the situation has devolved that these are the last weapons of the oppressed.

[Lunzium]

They aren't pushed by Israel to do this though...
Look, imagine inner city in US, you're poor, everyone around you sells drugs or worse, and if you don't join a gang, the gang will kill your family.
So what do you do? lets say you want to live, so you join the gang.
OK, now they tell you to go to suburbs and murder few people.
Was it the suburban people's fault that you got pushed into being a murderer?

I don't agree with your analogy here. im sorry

[cFortyfive]

Ismail Haniyeh does.

Well good for him I guess that makes him straight out a whole lot more pleasant than Mufti al-Husseini for instance I suppose.

[tremulant]

Whoa, wait a second here. You don't endorse the killing of innocents, yet Hamas is justified in sending missiles over to Israel, which has the potential to kill innocents, and you endorse that. What?

What are illegal settlers? Legally allowed? They're criminals. That's what illegal means.

You're mistake if you think that the rockets are aimed at settlements,
prior to the recent conflict (and during ofc) the rockets were aimed at Beer Sheva (7th biggest city in Isr), Ashdod (6th biggest city) and Ashkelon, all major cities in Israel and nowhere near the illegal settlement area.

[Zhangfei]

You're mistake if you think that the rockets are aimed at settlements,
prior to the recent conflict (and during ofc) the rockets were aimed at Beer Sheva (7th biggest city in Isr), Ashdod (6th biggest city) and Ashkelon, all major cities in Israel and nowhere near the illegal settlement area.

All of these were in Palestinian lands prior to 47. That's why they're illegal.

[Wells]

Well good for him I guess that makes him straight out a whole lot more pleasant than Mufti al-Husseini for instance I suppose.

Who has been dead since the 70s.

[Hughes]

All of these were in Palestinian lands prior to 47. That's why they're illegal.

And you said I fluffed my words? You call the 'settlers' in those town, illegal. Yet technically, according to their laws and international laws (as people), they have done nothing wrong. So they are in fact, innocent. So you are justifying the bombings of those cities, who have innocent people in them. Riiiight...

[cFortyfive]

Palestinian lands prior to 47

Wait, what land prior to '47 ?

Who has been dead since the 70s.

Of course.

[Zhangfei]

And you said I fluffed my words? You call the 'settlers' in those town, illegal. Yet technically, according to their laws and international laws (as people), they have done nothing wrong. So they are in fact, innocent. So you are justifying the bombings of those cities, who have innocent people in them. Riiiight...

Woah woah, what international laws? According to the laws of the actual time, they broke the law. Israel set up a new law by might. That argument strain is truly horrendous; it implies national mass murders or subjection of people are fine because "might makes right."

I'm saying these bombings happen because Israel broke the law, which they did, and took land illegally, which they did. That does not define "innocence" in any sense. Murderers do not get to be called innocent if they kill the police trying to stop them.

Wait, what land prior to '47 ?

Errr, the land and people who were there? British Mandate of Palestine? Taken from the Ottomans?

[cFortyfive]

people are fine because "might makes right."

Errr, the land and people who were there? British Mandate of Palestine? Taken from the Ottomans?

Well I thought you were talking about a not existing state. But anyways this is kinda the way it works as in the victor in general makes right.

[Hughes]

Woah woah, what international laws? According to the laws of the actual time, they broke the law. Israel set up a new law by might. That argument strain is truly horrendous; it implies national mass murders or subjection of people are fine because "might makes right."

I'm saying these bombings happen because Israel broke the law, which they did, and took land illegally, which they did. That does not define "innocence" in any sense. Murderers do not get to be called innocent if they kill the police trying to stop them.

Im not arguing how the land was taken, just your definition of innocence.

[someotherguy]

interesting discussion, it got slow a couple of days ago.
gonna turn in for the night, and leave you with a picture of an IDF soldier.

She's Arab combat soldier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Joseph
<sarcasm>I know, scary right?</sarcasm>

[mistuhbull]

Errr, the land and people who were there? British Mandate of Palestine? Taken from the Ottomans?

Who took it from the Mamluk,Who took it from the Abbasid, who took it from the Umayyad, who took it from the Rashidun, who took it from the Byzantine, who took it from the Romans, who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Greeks, who took it from the Persians, who took it from the Babylonians who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Canaanites.

Prior to 1947 it was British. End of story. The UN proposed and approved a partition of British land into 2 states. In 1948 Israel declared its independance in the land approved by the UN. Say what ever bullshit you want about the lands taken from Jordan and Egypt (and Syria, but nobody seems to care about that one...wonder why), but there is no illegality in the creation of Israel which has always included Ashkelon, Ashdod, and Be'er Sheva.

[Hughes]

Who took it from the Umayyad, who took it from the Abassid, who took it from the Romans, who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Greeks, who took it from the Persians, who took it from the Babylonians who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Canaanites.

Prior to 1947 it was British. End of story. The UN proposed and approved a partition of British land into 2 states. In 1948 Israel declared its independance in the land approved by the UN. Say what ever bullshit you want about the lands taken from Jordan and Egypt, but there is no illegality in the creation of Israel which has always included Ashkelon, Ashdod, and Be'er Sheva.

Uhm.../endthread? Thank you for the educational bits there. Honestly didn't know that much til now (no sarcasm).

[Subetei]

You might educate yourself... go read the Hamas charter and the Hezbollah one... seems pretty clear to me what it says, I'll leave you to read it and form your own opinion.

the Hamas charter is from 1988 the Hezbollah manifesto says no such thing. Hamas's current position is recognition of Israel in return for the 1967 borders.

[tremulant]

the Hamas charter is from 1988 the Hezbollah manifesto says no such thing. Hamas's current position is recognition of Israel in return for the 1967 borders.

the more accurate quote is (and this was actually only said first today): once they return to the 67 borders then they will decide it's standing toward Israel.

[Mavett]

Who took it from the Mamluk,Who took it from the Abbasid, who took it from the Umayyad, who took it from the Rashidun, who took it from the Byzantine, who took it from the Romans, who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Greeks, who took it from the Persians, who took it from the Babylonians who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Canaanites.

Prior to 1947 it was British. End of story. The UN proposed and approved a partition of British land into 2 states. In 1948 Israel declared its independance in the land approved by the UN. Say what ever bullshit you want about the lands taken from Jordan and Egypt (and Syria, but nobody seems to care about that one...wonder why), but there is no illegality in the creation of Israel which has always included Ashkelon, Ashdod, and Be'er Sheva.

[IMG]http://www.adulteducation.rsb.qc.ca/44-sinclair-steeler/Pictures/knockout%20gallery%207.jpg[IMG]


Infracted.

[Haarvald]

the Hamas charter is from 1988 the Hezbollah manifesto says no such thing. Hamas's current position is recognition of Israel in return for the 1967 borders.

You failed miserably, 'Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. '

within the first paragraph of the charter.

[Valort]

Well if they did it that time (I don't really know), I can't blame them for shooting after the warning.

By rule (From experience) IDF soldiers open fire only after repeatedly shouting at the person to stop, then showing the person the weapon in case he didn't hear by raising it skywards. Then loudly loading the weapon (Which, yes, can easily be loaded silently), and firing a couple of warning shots skywards. Only if the person keeps moving forwards, does the soldier shoot, and even then, he shoots low, in order to hit legs rather than actually kill. If said person keeps advancing after all those actions were taken, it is then understood said person is hostile and has no intent of stopping, therefore, in order to protect lives, a couple of shots are released at body height to stop said person.

I find it better than Hamas' "Shoot to kill" system, which is then followed by the lovely "Present body to huge group for lynching", and followed by "Drag bodies around by vehicle".

---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 11:17 AM ----------

Who took it from the Mamluk,Who took it from the Abbasid, who took it from the Umayyad, who took it from the Rashidun, who took it from the Byzantine, who took it from the Romans, who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Greeks, who took it from the Persians, who took it from the Babylonians who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Canaanites.

Prior to 1947 it was British. End of story. The UN proposed and approved a partition of British land into 2 states. In 1948 Israel declared its independance in the land approved by the UN. Say what ever bullshit you want about the lands taken from Jordan and Egypt (and Syria, but nobody seems to care about that one...wonder why), but there is no illegality in the creation of Israel which has always included Ashkelon, Ashdod, and Be'er Sheva.

Well stated, and a clean cut. I hope two paragraphs of facts are enough. Tho I doubt it.