New Dungeon, Fractals of the Mists

[Autier]

But when the next patch lets them get even stronger, they'll be back again! Afterall, ArenaNet doesn't care how often you play, flat out encouraging people to take breaks for months and come back whenever.

It's a really shitty way of treating your dedicated playerbase if only to court latecomers that didn't give a flying fuck what ArenaNet was trying to do and just wanted old MMOs.

I take a break every time I remember I can't get 100% world completion because of events that are still broken.

[Durzlla]

Durz, what does "Legendary Armor" mean, to you?
Because it's not supposed to be better than the best-equippable gear, stats wise, only a ridiculously badass skin and effect on your character (the game's not about stats, right?).

So with that in mind, why does there need to be an additional tier of gear for this to be true? Why does it have to be Legendary/Ascended? What functional difference is there between that and Exotic/Legendary that does not appease your ego enough? And why again is this okay now, but won't be if they end up implementing "Majestic" armor in the future (and again upscaling the Legendaries)?

Could you answer these for me, Durz?

Legendary = really really cool flashy armor that requires ungoldy amounts of time to achieve, Ascended would just be something a little harder then exotics to get, so there's a sort of jumping stone instead of just going LOLOLOLOLO! now you got exotics go flush hours and hours and hours down for it, where ascension gives you something to get if you don't have time to get legendaries or w/e.

[Kelesti]

Legendary = really really cool flashy armor that requires ungoldy amounts of time to achieve, Ascended would just be something a little harder then exotics to get, so there's a sort of jumping stone instead of just going LOLOLOLOLO! now you got exotics go flush hours and hours and hours down for it, where ascension gives you something to get if you don't have time to get legendaries or w/e.

They're lowering the hundreds of hours required to get a Legendary. And what happens to people that have Ascended gear? They don't have a shortcut and are in the same circumstances as people in Exotic trying to go for one.

Ascended Gear as a stat increase does not fix this discrepancy at all.

[Zeek Daniels]

Considering how Infusions work, and that they're only limited to Ascended gear, you can't pusg deeper levels of the new dungeon without this. You're effectively gearing up, to get more gear.

Yea but why would you be doing deeper levels of the dungeon without the gear anyway? it isnt possible to do the deeper levels without an added mechanic. Are you guys still not grasping infinite dungeon with infinite difficulty? You guys know there is a wall your going to hit. The dungeon is just a repeat as well. So its not like "Omg Anet why cant i go see whats deeper in the dungeon, i dont want to farm these ascended items just to see whats deeper." Its the same damn dungeon guys nothing changes. Its like going from MP1 to MP2 to MP3 in act 1 inferno. Mobs hit harder but your playing on the same map. When they add new maps you still can participate in doing those new maps without needing the ascended gear. That gear is only for those who want a more difficult challenge, not for players who want newer content with each difficulty.

I just can't wrap my head around how you're saying things like this to justify the whole thing, and somehow not seeming to hear yourself. The entire concept of a roadblock based on BiS gear is anathema to the entire stated game design.

The roadblock is not on the bis gear. The roadblock is because there is an increase in difficulty that never ends. Eventually by using an exotic set you would be overwhelmed. A difficulty cant keep increasing indefinitely while the gear stays exactly the same and have the player continue to win. Its not possible. Your going to hit a wall, thats the design of the infinite dungeon. You cant beat it, your always gonna hit a wall even with the new gear. And that brings me to your second point.

What happens when you reach a point where Ascended gear is no longer enough for the content? Then the dungeon stops being infinite again and that's justification for another new tier of gear?

This is easy. Just add stronger infusions. Dont touch the gear. If each infusion adds -2% agony dmg, then once all gear slots have been released months down the road start adding stronger infusions. Then their is no need for another set of gear. You can have these infusions drop in difficulties reachable only by those with a full set or almost a full set of ascended gear and by mystic forge.

Now i know what your thinking. "omg zeek you just said it yourself, you need to farm a full set just to get to the next set of infusions" Your right you do. But the question is why are you spending time doing this dungeon in the first place if not to keep increasing your difficulty. And if you keep trying to increase your difficulty then dont you want some kind of reward for reaching that difficulty and making it easier to each that point and get even further. I mean come on guys the dungeon never ends. This is all personal. You dont have to make the dungeon difficult if you dont want to. You dont need to have the gear to complete the content at its easiest levels.

Just wanted to add a picture i spent 3 hours ... ok ok 5 minutes making.

[IMG][/IMG]

This is my interpretation of the dungeon and its increasing difficulty. Each Arrow represents a set of 3 fractals. Each fractal being equal in difficulty. As you progress around the circle you eventually hit a wall. For this example the wall was 30% agony. The red circle is of a person with agony mitigation. You can see that he is able to do more fractals than the previous player but eventually hits the same 30% wall. Now comes the 3rd circle. This player has more agony mitigation than the red player and is able to do even more fractals before reaching the 30% wall.

Also notice the size of the circle. Lets equate the size to the amount of time spent doing fractals. Player Black spends more time doing the same fractals player Red and Player Blue are doing. This is because players Blue and Red have offensive infusions that help them clear easier fractals faster. Now of course they should take longer to complete later fractals but im not really drawing to scale. The point is Agony mitigation allows you to keep repeating content (the same content) over and over again without having to reset the dungeon and start over.

This dungeon is a big troll if you as me. Not that its a bad thing its just funny how its designed and how you guys havent figured it out yet.

[rhandric]

A nice little blog post that sums up my feeling on it.

http://www.guildwars2hub.com/feature...-ascended-gear

That blog post is dead on. Ascended gear is/should be a stepping stone, something you can aim for at the same time you're working on getting your Legendary/ies. I see the cause of the uproar, but as long as it's the last power increment added (even if it's added in a dozen steps over the course of a year), it's no different from getting your exotics. The only difference is that you could get your exotics from day 1, but you had to wait a couple months before they added Ascended gear.

Of course, if it's not the last power increment, then I'll be alongside you in feeling lied to.

[rhandric]

I don't understand how this makes any sense. It's no different from exotics...except in all the ways that it is?

As long as == if == get your head out of your ass and actually read what I wrote.

[probert]

I don't understand how this makes any sense. It's no different from exotics...except in all the ways that it is?

As i understand it...

ascended gear stats are equal to exotic gear stats + runes. so theoretically exotic gear is more flexible and more general purpose.

However.

ascended gear allows for infusions, which is where the agony resist comes in. so because you need resists for deep dungeon dives for the fractal dungeon, you'll *need* ascended gear, eventually.

and agony resist has no use outside of the dungeon.

so net-net... worst case scenario we have a very mild gear creep via rings and cloaks (not rune capable) over exotics.

Anyone care to correct me?

[rhandric]

The biggest problem with Infusion is the need for Ascended armor. If you take into account the need to be Ascended to get Infused in GW1, it makes sense, but it seems poorly done. That said, (Spectral) Agony hearkens back to GW1, as does Infusion, with the difference being the source of Agony (doesn't seem like it's from Mursaat, though I could be wrong) and the implementation of Infusion (special armor vs any armor).

If it's the only new tier of gear, then you still have an item plateau, it's just slightly beyond what we thought previously. If, on the other hand, it marks the start of a continuous treadmill -- both the implementation of additional tiers, and the need for said tiers -- then it contradicts the original, stated intent of the game design. If they had released the game with, say, 1 piece of Ascended gear, would you have said that the addition of new pieces is a treadmill and contradicts the design of the game? I'm just taking a long-term look at the effect of the addition of Ascended gear, hoping that it marks the plateau.

And to be honest, it makes sense: we start with blue gear (I'm ignoring white for this purpose), go to green, then yellow, then orange; the only color left is red, which had been used for various things in different beta builds, but ultimately removed (though the wiki is calling it pink, I'll keep calling it red until I see it in game). And, keeping with every other item quality in game, Ascended items will be of equal quality to each other. For that matter, while the blog did have a picture comparing an Ascended and Exotic ring, it's possible that the stat allocation may end up identical, with the only difference being the infusion slot and lack of upgrade slot. Until it goes live, it's pure speculation.

[Durzlla]

We have this new mechanic. We have this new stat to deal with it. We need items that this new "stat" goes into.

What raises my eyebrows is that...even if I totally ignore Infuse/Agony (which I don't want to, I absolutely think it's a bad move in the context of this gameplay system) I still have to ask...why did the new items have to be stronger? That's where the skepticism starts creeping in. =(

It's fucking 2 stats... If you want your gear to be better throw superior crests in all your exotics and you'll be able to bitch slap people when it comes to raw stats, someone in ascended CAN NOT customize their gear an will be bonned in all oter aspects that aren't that dungeon, I will take my flexibility with runes and crests and gems over some minor stat increase any day... Well.... Unless Ascended gear look REALLY REALLY cool.... But that's a totally different story xD

[Deleted]

It's too late to remove this feature. Since it's not many days left.

If they remove it now, how useless will the dungeon be? And how useless will the future patches be? I guess many patches are built around this one mechanic, and if they remove the main feature, the rest of it will collapse and be too crappy to release :/

[Kelesti]

It's fucking 2 stats... If you want your gear to be better throw superior crests in all your exotics and you'll be able to bitch slap people when it comes to raw stats, someone in ascended CAN NOT customize their gear an will be bonned in all oter aspects that aren't that dungeon, I will take my flexibility with runes and crests and gems over some minor stat increase any day... Well.... Unless Ascended gear look REALLY REALLY cool.... But that's a totally different story xD

So your response is "yes you lose your rune, but even with the rune/gem, Ascended has higher stats than an Exotic with one, but it's not a lot so fucking deal with it"?

Cute, Durz.

[Zeek Daniels]

Gear over Content. Thats what the guild wars 2 community is all about.

Anet just make the dungeon not scale in difficulty, dont give them any rewards besides gold and xp, and listen to complaints of "this dungeon is pointless." "why are we even running this more than once" "why doesnt this dungeon just end already" "how come there are no good rewards in this dungeon"

You guys are really weird. I just hope Anet keeps adding storymodes and explore's as well as new zones. You guys can go do your FoTM dungeon treadmill with meak rewards for the rest of your GW2 life.

[Fencers]

The people for whom content for it's own sake was not enough are not actual fans of the Guild Wars franchise.

By doing this and listening to that segment of the audience Arena.net has chosen a hypocritical and insulting stance to those that were interested in the franchise specifically because of what it was prior.

It more than within Anet's right to switch focus and cater to where the money is for them.

It is also within the right of long term players of the franchise to call this out as a proverbial slap in the face and supreme act of hypocrisy.

[Zeek Daniels]

The people for whom content for it's own sake was not enough are not actual fans of the Guild Wars franchise.

By doing this and listening to that segment of the audience Arena.net has chosen a hypocritical and insulting stance to those that were interested in the franchise specifically because of what it was prior.

It more than within Anet's right to switch focus and cater to where the money is for them.

It is also within the right of long term players of the franchise to call this out as a proverbial slap in the face and supreme act of hypocrisy.

Annnnd No. How many times have i said that the Content is available to everyone from day 1. For all we know high-end content to arena net means any level 80 player regardless of gear. While high-end content to you means Fully ascended geared only players.

This new content is here for everyone to play no matter what your gear is. Do you want to replay the content over and over again on higher difficulties? If so heres some gear to help you with your never ending cycle in this dungeon.

Still doesnt mean Anet switched its focus, Doesnt mean Anet is now catering to the "progression" crowd. It means Anet put in a different type of PvE mode for the players that want to experience it.

Its kinda like a WvW player complaining that Spvpers do more dmg. Its a different game mode and needs to be treated as such. If you dont like The infinite mode dungeon then dont do it.

[Ravenblade]

I am by now very curious whether ANet will be bothered to explain that rather significant paradigm switch with anything else than 'feedback was given'. If your faith into your own design philosophy wasn't that unshakeable to begin with then you weren't either truly convinced of it by yourself or it wasn't good enough to for marketing. I am wondering about why the result of their first iteration was sacrificing a few proverbial sacred cows and risking a huge backlash like this and act like if they are surprised by the volume of negative feedback now (re: M.Kerstein's unnerved responses). I believe there is something more to this than just feedback from wandering game nomads even though there were quite a lot of complaints on public forums I was under the impression that it was usually met with a strong base of counter-arguments. It seemed more like a status quo. There were a lot more complaints about other issues. Why didn't they opt for holy trinity, raids, mounts or increased monetary rewards - why did they choose the most inner principle of to be tainted or in best case diluted?

I am not arguing for that companies never should change their philosophies or never iterate on their design. But going by experience you don't usually start by breaking the tablets with the rules written on them. It's a top-down approach usually where you try to use your core design as a retreat and fallback if any other design principles you built on top of it have failed to delivered aka going back to the drawing board. So yeah, I am thinking they haven't told us the whole story yet.

I know this sounds like I am swinging over into the anti-camp when I was trying to keep a moderate stance on this. It's just a thing which got me thinking a little today.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure ArenaNet will ignore these coming days on the forums and/or other sources where they get messages, mails, twitters, and whatnot. In the end, they will add this feature, it's too late to remove it now.

[zito]

I’d like to respond to concerns players have raised about ascended items. Please keep in mind that we’re releasing this as one portion of a massive November update that introduces and improves many aspects of challenge, progression, and rewards. With this and upcoming updates, we view ourselves as introducing large amounts of content with supporting systems and features, akin to an expansion pack, building on Guild Wars 2 through a series of live releases. So it’s important for us to be able to add an expansion pack’s worth of progression and rewards to support that content.
Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.
Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content. PvP will remain unaffected to ensure our intended PvP balance going forward. We are also working on other reward and progression systems for the game that tie into current and new content and features. As you know we care very much about your support and opinion and are listening intently to what you say.
Finally we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the upcoming content, and we will ensure we share our thoughts with you on the experiences we share in the Lost Shores.
Chris Whiteside – Studio Design Director

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/foru...reads/page/120

ascended gear sounds like the last tier till an expansion. Legendarys are going to scale to ascended.

Everyone needs to stop freaking out, if you notice in the pictures of exotic and ascended the stat difference for each stat is 2. Calm the f down. It would be a problem if they constantly add new tiers but they are not. The stat raises in this context is not the problem.

The real problem (which we will find an answer in the next few days) is how agony and the new resist will play out. Also by the looks of it ascended gear has a pre- jewel according to the picture and it doesn't look like you will be able to switch.

[Kelesti]

I’d like to respond to concerns players have raised about ascended items. Please keep in mind that we’re releasing this as one portion of a massive November update that introduces and improves many aspects of challenge, progression, and rewards. With this and upcoming updates, we view ourselves as introducing large amounts of content with supporting systems and features, akin to an expansion pack, building on Guild Wars 2 through a series of live releases. So it’s important for us to be able to add an expansion pack’s worth of progression and rewards to support that content.

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.

Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content. PvP will remain unaffected to ensure our intended PvP balance going forward. We are also working on other reward and progression systems for the game that tie into current and new content and features. As you know we care very much about your support and opinion and are listening intently to what you say.
Finally we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the upcoming content, and we will ensure we share our thoughts with you on the experiences we share in the Lost Shores.

Chris Whiteside – Studio Design Director

Their first ever response to this heaping pile of shit.

Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.

Seeing as Legendaries already have the same stats, this line in and of itself is complete and total bullshit. Why are you hoping we're stupid, ANet?

We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards

But remember "This is not a gear treadmill"...

We are also working on other reward and progression systems for the game that tie into current and new content and features.

Badges of Justice or Frost or Valor Points or whatever they're called now? Giving more ways to upgrade your stuff does not make it less of a deal about upgrading your stuff in a game that's not supposed to be about upgrading your stuff to begin with.

Here was me holding out a shred of hope. Looks like it's gone

---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 06:29 PM ----------

Everyone needs to stop freaking out, if you notice in the pictures of exotic and ascended the stat difference for each stat is 2. Calm the f down. It would be a problem if they constantly add new tiers but they are not. The stat raises in this context is not the problem.

If it wasn't a big deal, they wouldn't be adding it in the first place.

The difference between t10 and heroic t10 is 10 haste rating. But it's there.

[zito]

But remember "This is not a gear treadmill"...

To be fair it's not a gear treadmill yet.

If future new dungeons which will drop ascended gear will require you to have a certain amount of resist first (via the first dungeon) then yes it will be a gear treadmill. Because now you have to grind ascended gear to do the next dungeon and so on and so forth if they do it like that.

However if they don't do it like that. At a certain point agony will be trivialized by the amount of ascended gear you have making the content lackluster.

To me they just dug themselves a hole and if they don't fix the fucking horrible encounters in this new dungeon I will have to agree and eat my words that this game is a PvP game.

[Zeek Daniels]

Seeing as Legendaries already have the same stats, this line in and of itself is complete and total bullshit. Why are you hoping we're stupid, ANet?

They already said legendaries are getting buffed to Ascended stats so nope not complete and total bullshit.