Isn't it about time the Mens' Rights Movement stopped being treated like a joke?

[Felya]

However, technically if a woman who was under the influence claims rape, it is rape. This is because alcohol and other substances have a proven track record of lowering inhibitions and compromising informed consent. Because we're on the topic of equality, technically the man in this story should be afforded the same right and at the bare minimum bear no responsibility for a pregnancy.

Speak on the behalf of men having sex with women who are too drunk to say no! Fight for the men's right to take advantage of drunk chicks!

[Vanyali]

However, technically if a woman who was under the influence claims rape, it is rape. This is because alcohol and other substances have a proven track record of lowering inhibitions and compromising informed consent. Because we're on the topic of equality, technically the man in this story should be afforded the same right and at the bare minimum bear no responsibility for a pregnancy.

---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 02:06 PM ----------

And here we go, bring on the "forcible" rape. What's next? "Legitimate" rape?

---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 02:07 PM ----------

Like I said before, alcohol has a proven scientific track record of lowering inhibitions and legal precedent for compromising informed consent.

I've already address the part about compromising consent: bring a friend. If you do not, and you get drunk, don't sob to everyone about being "raped" because of something you consented to while alone and drunk. That's just stupid behavior. If you are alone and you are drunk you're going to agree to SOMETHING stupid, regardless of if it's sex or not. You should still have responsibility for your actions.

And that'd be "forced" sex rather than "consenting" sex. Could do without the attempt at a strawman, as I never said rape wasn't a legitimate complaint. Being someone that had it attempted (while sober, teenaged, and at my mother's friend house with her in the goddamn bed next to me) I'm pretty aware of the difference.

I just don't have any sympathy for someone that gets blasted alone, has sex, enjoys it while drunk, then realizes "shit, i have a boyfriend.. RAPE!" or "shit, he's ugly... RAPE!" or any other scenario to get out of a situation they placed themselves in.

[Ebildays]

So... Lets take the following situation:

Woman walks into a bar. There is a drunk rich man. She sleeps with the drunk rich man and ends up carrying his child. He was drunk, she was sober. He doesn't want the child, she has it and takes $20,000 a month (20% of his income in a month because, you know... He's rich.) - How the hell is that fair?

This should be not be a question. The same standards that apply to men that apply to women in that situation. Since he was unable to give proper consent it should be considered rape. The woman should be charged for rape, as for the child because she raped the man in question she should not recieve child support. In fact if the man wanted the child it should be given to him and the woman should be made to pay him child support, I don't care if he does not need the money or not.

[Rukentuts]

I've already address the part about compromising consent: bring a friend. If you do not, and you get drunk, don't sob to everyone about being "raped" because of something you consented to while alone and drunk. That's just stupid behavior.

Yeah, I'm sure rape victims everywhere love to hear that one. It's totally their fault.

And that'd be "forced" sex rather than "consenting" sex. Could do without the attempt at a strawman, as I never said rape wasn't a legitimate complaint. Being someone that had it attempted (while sober, teenaged, and at my mother's friend house with her in the goddamn bed next to me) I'm pretty aware of the difference.

Do you know the legal definition of informed consent? I don't think you do, otherwise you wouldn't have said this at all.

I just don't have any sympathy for someone that gets blasted alone, has sex, enjoys it while drunk, then realizes "shit, i have a boyfriend.. RAPE!" or "shit, he's ugly... RAPE!" or any other scenario to get out of a situation they placed themselves in.

Oh, I think everyone here knows that by now.

[Vanyali]

Yeah, I'm sure rape victims everywhere love to hear that one. It's totally their fault.

I know the legal definition of informed consent.

I just find it incredibly stupid that you can ruin a person's life because YOU got drunk, YOU decided to have sex while drunk, and YOU regretted it when you sobered up.

Fuck, I say this as a woman - if you want to get drunk, do it with friends or in a safer situation where you won't ruin someone else's life because you can't control yourself.

This is NOT pertaining to anyone that is an actual victim of rape, who get overlooked so damn easily because of people playing the game of "i was drunk, it was rape i swear" when it wasn't.

[Rukentuts]

I know the legal definition of informed consent.

I just find it incredibly stupid that you can ruin a person's life because YOU got drunk, YOU decided to have sex while drunk, and YOU regretted it when you sobered up.

Fuck, I say this as a woman - if you want to get drunk, do it with friends or in a safer situation where you won't ruin someone else's life because you can't control yourself.

This is NOT pertaining to anyone that is an actual victim of rape, who get overlooked so damn easily because of people playing the game of "i was drunk, it was rape i swear" when it wasn't.

Judging from every sentence after the first one, you have not the faintest idea on what the legal definition of informed consent is. Because if you did, you'd realize that alcohol and other substances (let's take GHB for example) compromise the victim's ability to consent. Why do you think defendants have been convicted on use of GHB even though the victim "liked it" at the time they were having sex and even "consented"? Because it wasn't informed consent, and was therefore rape.

Brush up on your definitions.

PS: Stop shaming victims. It's fucking disgusting.

[Vanyali]

Judging from every sentence after the first one, you have not the faintest idea on what the legal definition of informed consent is. Because if you did, you'd realize that alcohol and other substances (let's take GHB for example) compromise the victim's ability to consent. Why do you think defendants have been convicted on use of GHB even though the victim "liked it" at the time they were having sex and even "consented"? Because it wasn't informed consent, and was therefore rape.

Brush up on your definitions.

PS: Stop shaming victims. It's fucking disgusting.

I feel sorry for real victims, people who are actually raped and taken away by people they have zero interest in for sex. People that pretend to be their friends to abduct them.

People that have drunken sex, sober up, realize they shouldn't have had sex and yell rape? Zero.

[Rukentuts]

I feel sorry for real victims, people who are actually raped and taken away by people they have zero interest in for sex. People that pretend to be their friends to abduct them.

People that have drunken sex, sober up, realize they shouldn't have had sex and yell rape? Zero.

Yeah, it's clear you aren't being swayed from what I feel (and suspect others do as well) is a morally abhorrent stance. Therefore we have nothing more to discuss.

[Vanyali]

Yeah, it's clear you aren't being swayed from what I feel (and suspect others do as well) is a morally abhorrent stance. Therefore we have nothing more to discuss.

*shrug*

It may be that i, being asexual, view this a little different.

any sex that i have will probably be non-consent. But, if i got drunk, i might consent... then absolutely hate myself in the morning. But that's MY problem, not the guy who i had sex with. if i ever got pregnant... fuck, don't know what i'd do. that's not even remotely in my interest or plans. but to blame the guy for me getting drunk and having sex seems wrong on the highest level because it was MY choice that led to it (getting drunk alone with other drunk people).

[Rukentuts]

*shrug*

It may be that i, being asexual, view this a little different.

Don't assume another poster doesn't share a similar trait.

[Vanyali]

Don't assume another poster doesn't share a similar trait.

i'm not. i'm just saying that may have an effect on the way i view a situation that i'm unlikely to ever get into being both uninterested in sex and getting drunk.

[Auloria]

I know the legal definition of informed consent.

I just find it incredibly stupid that you can ruin a person's life because YOU got drunk, YOU decided to have sex while drunk, and YOU regretted it when you sobered up.

Fuck, I say this as a woman - if you want to get drunk, do it with friends or in a safer situation where you won't ruin someone else's life because you can't control yourself.

This is NOT pertaining to anyone that is an actual victim of rape, who get overlooked so damn easily because of people playing the game of "i was drunk, it was rape i swear" when it wasn't.

The buddy system is a great way to protect yourself: however, acquaintance rape is the most common complaint for drunk victims. Anecdotally, the most common survivor story I hear is that they were drinking with someone that they thought they could trust (and they do blame themselves for it and never report).

The victims of rape while drunk experience real and sometimes severe psycholoical trauma. It is difficult for me to judge them harshly or blame them just for being naive, especially when they tend to be young.

I say this as someone who has gone through similar experiences as you in my childhood, have found myself in a situation where I needed support to cope with it, and have met many survivors and heard their stories. I understand what you are saying and why you think that way, but take some time to see what the people who actually go through it are saying. I had many misconceptions about drinking victims at one time too. You should make your own opinion, but do so after looking at the other side.

[Grizzly Willy]

Blaming people for being taken advantage of while their drunk is pretty goddamn low.

[Rukentuts]

i'm not. i'm just saying that may have an effect on the way i view a situation that i'm unlikely to ever get into being both uninterested in sex and getting drunk.

Indeed, but it doesn't validate what I have said. I'm sure we could have many posters tell stories on what people say or do while drunk that is vastly contradictory to their normal behavior.

The fact is that alcohol and other drugs have been shown to lower defenses and vastly undermine a person's ability to make an informed decision on their actions; hence the 'informed' part in informed consent. This is why it's considered rape, because the victim wasn't in a state of mind to comprehend their decision. It's also why the concept of informed consent stretches beyond sex and into many other fields; medical treatments for example.

[seta-san]

If you don't want kids:

1. Get "fixed".
2. Don't have sex.
3. Use protection.
4. Have anal or sex with other men instead

That is all...

let's see what happens when you reverse the gender

abortion should be illegal because if they didn't want children they would

1. Get "fixed".
2. Don't have sex.
3. Use protection.
4. Have anal or sex with other women instead

suddenly we're in misogyny territory aren't we? It kind of exposes your misandry.

[Shadowmelded]

let's see what happens when you reverse the gender

abortion should be illegal because if they didn't want children they would

1. Get "fixed".
2. Don't have sex.
3. Use protection.
4. Have anal or sex with other women instead

suddenly we're in misogyny territory aren't we? It kind of exposes your misandry.

If you're so paranoid about being blackmailed by women, then getting 'fixed' seems like an extremely good option. It's not permanent (or doesn't need to be) and I'm sure the financial security would outweigh the brief pain you have to endure. No one is saying that men HAVE to get fixed if they don't want children, but if you're this paranoid about being taking advantage of by 'those evil women who are after my moneyz' then that's your trust issues, not the female gender's.

[Sunseeker]

If you're so paranoid about being blackmailed by women, then getting 'fixed' seems like an extremely good option. It's not permanent (or doesn't need to be) and I'm sure the financial security would outweigh the brief pain you have to endure. No one is saying that men HAVE to get fixed if they don't want children, but if you're this paranoid about being taking advantage of by 'those evil women who are after my moneyz' then that's your trust issues, not the female gender's.

I don't think that's his point.

He's saying that everything you said about men not wanting kids can be applied to the abortion argument. It's a two-way street, if you think it's OK for a woman to get an abortion because she didn't want to get "fixed" because she refused to not have sex, because she didn't want to use protection, and because she didn't want to use other orifices....then why is it NOT okay when a man does all the same things?

I mean if we take two people, one man, one woman. NEITHER of them are fixed, they both have sex, neither uses protection, and they always do vaginal intercourse, why do women get the right to throw away their potential child but men don't?

[Laize]

This is about right.

[Shadowmelded]

I don't think that's his point.

He's saying that everything you said about men not wanting kids can be applied to the abortion argument. It's a two-way street, if you think it's OK for a woman to get an abortion because she didn't want to get "fixed" because she refused to not have sex, because she didn't want to use protection, and because she didn't want to use other orifices....then why is it NOT okay when a man does all the same things?

I mean if we take two people, one man, one woman. NEITHER of them are fixed, they both have sex, neither uses protection, and they always do vaginal intercourse, why do women get the right to throw away their potential child but men don't?

Abortion isn't about shirking away from responsibilities. Pregnancies involve significant risks and are akin to physical trauma. Not allowing a woman to avoid something like that if they aren't wanting children is pretty cruel, and would only see an increase in dangerous DIY abortions which carry numerous risks.

The reason men can't throw away their potential child is because they can't bear children. If it affected their bodily autonomy, it would be immoral. If the father doesn't want the child, there's not much he can do without forcing the woman to have an abortion, which would be heinous. The child has a parent that is willing to look after it and take care of it, however if it's found that without support from the people responsible for bringing it into the world it would be impoverished or suffer in some way then courts will award alimony.

This is about right.

[img]http://5pol.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/175.jpg[img]

Yeah, once again, this is why MRM is a joke. You're too busy focusing on women to a point that it feels like subversive misogyny and not on trying to spread a message like 'Oh hey, here's an issue that men suffer from due to the way our legal system is set up, or due to bias among individuals that influence jury decisions'
Less vilifying women would do wonders for the 'movement'

[Ebildays]

I don't think that's his point.

He's saying that everything you said about men not wanting kids can be applied to the abortion argument. It's a two-way street, if you think it's OK for a woman to get an abortion because she didn't want to get "fixed" because she refused to not have sex, because she didn't want to use protection, and because she didn't want to use other orifices....then why is it NOT okay when a man does all the same things?

I mean if we take two people, one man, one woman. NEITHER of them are fixed, they both have sex, neither uses protection, and they always do vaginal intercourse, why do women get the right to throw away their potential child but men don't?

Why is it all always about abortion? And if a woman or man does not want to use protection run away. Run far away.

Men are not throwing away potential children but children there is a big difference.

I have said before I am okay with something like a consent form that both parties would sign before having sex. I think that giving men a better pro-active option is better then giving them a post-active option. A pre-active option would allow men the option to walk away from any and all child care responsibilities before chance for an unwanted pregnancy happens. or if they want the child to notified in the event that the mother wants to put the child up for adoption and in that case the female would pay child support. Now the big draw backs to that is a woman may not want to sign the form but that should be taken as a flag to the man. And sex would have to wait until the form was signed, which is a problem for one night stands and the such.

Give men a pre-active option that is equal to a woman's post-active option and things would balance themselves out.