[Balance] Multi-dotting help

[Thorim]

He is 100% meter padding (although to be fair he probably doesn't realize he is). Most people have the assumption that the gcds wasted on dotting the other 2 bosses will be made up for by SS procs. They won't. And they won't until extremely high crit levels. Though doing so during CA I believe is acceptable, not 100% sure but 2 globals for 4 sets of dots should be ok.

If your confident in the intelligence of your raider simply tell him to ignore dotting the other two adds completely and instead focus on a pure single target rotation on Protector Kaolan. Unless he sabotages his performance to make it look like he was right, he will obviously do less DPS overall, but his damage done to Protector will be much higher.

I haven no idea how this rumor got started but it's beyond silly. Let's say there were 10 mobs you had to kill in order instead of three; would you then tab dot every single mob and continue to do so after they fell off? How do you think your damage would be on the mob you were supposed to kill first if you were only using SS procs and dots?

Actually....it is easily worth it. Don't know how you can say you do LESS single target when in actual fact the resulting SS procs will make up for losing a few GCDs.

Don't know about you but I have about 25% crit in a raid, thats with the 5273 breakpoint. So yeah, it is totally worth dotting the other two.

Calling someone out for 'padding' when they are following the mechanics of their class is really low tbh. As someone said before, it is like a Lock fishing for shards.

[Deleted]

Actually....it is easily worth it. Don't know how you can say you do LESS single target when in actual fact the resulting SS procs will make up for losing a few GCDs.
Calling someone out for 'padding' when they are following the mechanics of their class is really low tbh. As someone said before, it is like a Lock fishing for shards.

It's not low, you just need either show results with high effective dps to convince ppl or something. Ppl sometimes do pad and need to be called out for it, maybe not in this case however.

[Deleted]

It's quite simple if he is damaging something thats gonna heal up its wasted gcd's, and in a way you are asking is his single target dps worse that his target dps if he mutidots and the answer is no. I had this discussion in my guild aswell on madness hc progress when people aoed the adds that were healing up instead of dmg the tentacle. Its right that you criticise him, but take a look at your other dps aswell since it's not gonna be 1 boomer multidotting thats wiping you.

[Stommped]

Actually....it is easily worth it. Don't know how you can say you do LESS single target when in actual fact the resulting SS procs will make up for losing a few GCDs.

Don't know about you but I have about 25% crit in a raid, thats with the 5273 breakpoint. So yeah, it is totally worth dotting the other two.

Calling someone out for 'padding' when they are following the mechanics of their class is really low tbh. As someone said before, it is like a Lock fishing for shards.

Sorry friend you are just completely wrong. And notice I did not "call him out." I said he was meter padding but he probably did not realize, bc most have the same wrong assumption that you have.

At current haste/crit levels it takes about 1.4 full duration dots to get a Shooting Stars proc, when you use it you will have spent a total of 2.4 GCDs. That puts its' DPET slightly above Wrath's and below Starfires. So therefore it makes absolutely no sense to do this during Lunar and post Lunar. If you factor in how much this will slow down your rotation and lead to less NG uptime, Starfalls, etc as well as the fact that you can only use 2 SSs during Solar then it's a pretty safe bet that it's not worth doing during Solar either.

[Champatron]

I believe the problem with advice like this is that some people are way more crit than others here, making such a determination very case by case.

@Sunfyre, I love your blog but your guide here for balance has nothing for multidotting. It'd be nice to be able to have a definitive place to have your advice on this without searching forum threads.

[Purrberry]

While this might not be exactly helpful in determining the true answer to more or less dps from multi-dotting on Protectors as I am basing it on my logs and intuition, I ranked 11 on this fight on normal elite mode earlier this week and did so by doing no multi-dotting. And looking at the specific numbers to the bosses in the order we killed them, I did the 2nd most single target dps to Regail(killed first) and the 1st most single target dps to Asani (killed 2nd) which was probably due to the starfalls adding up.

So while it's very plausible everyone else I raid with doesn't do great damage, etc., I'm managing to outdo classes far better at single target dps than a moonkin (and I can attest we don't have crappy dpsers either) without multi-dotting and using the starsurge procs and in fact Starsurge is number 4 on my damage list behind Starfire, Wrath and Starfall while still ranking extremely highly. Logs are in the sig if anyone wants to see them, but pulling the numbers that I did, I find it extremely hard to believe it is an increase in single target damage to multi-dot everything on that fight and use the starsurge procs as the amount of starfires and wraths you can get out in the 4 seconds I would argue (based on my logs) outweighs it.

But my conclusion is based purely on experience and so I will still leave it to the theorycrafters to come up with a definitive answer.

Edit: I decided to look at some of the top ranking logs for Regular Protectors Normal and see what the moonkins are doing... The 5 I picked in the top 10 all had Moonfire/Sunfire way ahead of everything else damage wise and except for 1 that did about 25k more dps than second place in total, they all were around 3rd, sometimes 4th on Kaolan who i am assuming is killed first in all Regular mode kills. That would be the time when they are spending the most time double dotting, and after looking at their total numbers with their numbers on Kaolan I can pretty comfortably say that multi-dotting + starsurge procs does NOT yield higher single target dps.

[Deleted]

If you want to know for sure if it's a dps increase for you to multi dot or single target. Minus your dot damage from both methods and see the raw damage from Instant Starsurge spam vs. Wrath/Starfire & Starsurge single target rotation.

Since the dots should do equal damage to the main target regardless. Extra dot damage on the others is pointless dps.

Should give a pretty clear indication as to whether one is better than the other imo.

[Dominian]

If you keep up at least 3 dots on other targets and are crit based the Shooting Stars procs will be a higher single target increase on average. other than that meter padding.

[Stommped]

I believe the problem with advice like this is that some people are way more crit than others here, making such a determination very case by case.

It doesn't matter, it is not possible to have high enough crit to make this worthwhile at the moment.

---------- Post added 2012-12-01 at 11:50 PM ----------

If you keep up at least 3 dots on other targets and are crit based the Shooting Stars procs will be a higher single target increase on average. other than that meter padding.

Care to share your math on how you came up with the 3 dots (on top of the 2 dots already on Protector) as the magic number?

[Deleted]

When i do this fight i dot the main target and after that i put up 1 dot the eclipsed one on 1 more target, if you multidot all 3 targets with both dots on each then it will be a dps loss to the main target since the other 2 go up to full health.
By doing this you get enough SS proccs and can do good dps on the right target

[Deleted]

When i do this fight i dot the main target and after that i put up 1 dot the eclipsed one on 1 more target, if you multidot all 3 targets with both dots on each then it will be a dps loss to the main target since the other 2 go up to full health.
By doing this you get enough SS proccs and can do good dps on the right target

Or you could put up the uneclipsed dot and do the same dps to your main target, but that would mean less dmg from meter padding..

I think I'll trust Stommped who has killed it on HC and has some math and logic behind his arguments instead of "I dot everything because it gives BIIIG single target dps increase"

[Babytaco]

He claimed that when he dots the others while one of his CDs is up that it increases the damage of his dots - effectively doing more damage to our main target.

Is that seriously what he said? That makes my brain hurt...

Simply dotting more targets (that heal to full) won't increase dot damage... All it does is allow for more Starsurge procs, which is still good. It sounds like he just doesn't seem to understand why he is actually doing it lol...

[hulkgor]

Personally, i am also of the belief that you actually gain single target DPS from Starsurge procs if you have 2 rolling dots on the other protectors. Doesn't really matter if they're eclipsed or not in this case, since what matter is the number of extra tick crits for the extra procs, instead of their actual damage, since the mobs will heal. Now... some say that applying 2 extra eclipsed dots is meter padding, dotting 2 non-eclipsed dots just to 'reduce' meter padding does not make any sense.

I find that the ~2 extra starsurge procs (usually more, rarely less) from 2 gcds (with 4pc, 2x11 ticks, at about 30% buffed crit))far outweighs the alternative.

Now, as many stated, using both dots on every protector, makes for a lot of wasted SS procs, and eventually affecting single target dps.

Really bothers me the amount of hate boomkins get for trying to maximize the effectiveness of their class.

[Deleted]

For those who are saying it's a single target DPS increase to aggressively multidot, I'd be interested to see you link a parse where you use the technique and show exactly how it's been a DPS increase. I think it makes most sense to look purely at the opening period of Protectors Normal Elite (i.e. prior to Regail dying) as that's the most clear cut example without any external influences like damage/haste buffs.

Specifically, what I've not been seeing from any parses I've looked at is enough of an increase in *used* SS procs (one of the parses linked earlier that was multidotting "wasted" at least 5 procs, for example) versus the GCDs spent on the extra DOTs and the Wrath/Starfire casts lost on the boss as a result. The only important factor is damage done to Regail, anything that hits the other targets is obviously unimportant.

[Stommped]

Personally, i am also of the belief that you actually gain single target DPS from Starsurge procs if you have 2 rolling dots on the other protectors. Doesn't really matter if they're eclipsed or not in this case, since what matter is the number of extra tick crits for the extra procs, instead of their actual damage, since the mobs will heal. Now... some say that applying 2 extra eclipsed dots is meter padding, dotting 2 non-eclipsed dots just to 'reduce' meter padding does not make any sense.

I find that the ~2 extra starsurge procs (usually more, rarely less) from 2 gcds (with 4pc, 2x11 ticks, at about 30% buffed crit))far outweighs the alternative.

Now, as many stated, using both dots on every protector, makes for a lot of wasted SS procs, and eventually affecting single target dps.

Really bothers me the amount of hate boomkins get for trying to maximize the effectiveness of their class.

The hate is deserved. You are increasing the length of the fight by allowing Protector to live longer in order to uselessly dot the other targets. As much as you might "feel" like it's more damage because you get more Shooting Star icons in the middle of your screen, it's not.

[Mathrys]

I think a lot of people are missing the fact that the more SS procs you get the more SS procs you "lose". While it's true that you get more SS procs from multidotting but the chances you get two SS proc during a GCD is really high also. With the gear i have at the moment i get so much SS crit during multidotting that i am not able to keep up sometimes and i just lose SS proc since i am GCD capped.

If you are only single targetting then all of the SS proc you get are effectively used on the boss which is why practically it's not worth it to multidot on protectors

[crunk]

After a night of attempts on H protectors and testing all of this stuff out I had the most consistent results with straight single target only multidotting during CA. I had inconsistent results with keeping a second target dotted - sometimes I'd put 20 mil or more into the boss, other times only 17-18. Keeping all targets dotted all the time was unquestionably a dps loss.


22.33% crit
3772 haste


if the boss was on farm and i was trying to parse id multidot 2 targets and hope for good rng. for progression i feel its better to go with what gives the most consistent results.

[Pippilongear]

If you keep up at least 3 dots on other targets and are crit based the Shooting Stars procs will be a higher single target increase on average. other than that meter padding.

I posted this math in the EJ and WoW forums but I'll repost it here for posterity.

TLDR - Multidotting is a single-target DPS LOSS unless your crit is higher (raid buffed) than 28% (and that is only when you are going from Solar > Lunar outside of eclipse). To be a DPS gain 100% of the time you need to have crit higher than 38% raid buffed (not achievable this tier)
* Also this math is a "best case scenario" for SS procs where one proc doesn't overwrite another and lead to any "wasted" SS procs so the reality would be that your crit rate would need to be higher than this shows to be a DPS gain.




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In a nutshell the way I looked at SS procs is the "opportunity cost" of casting a dot on one of the secondary protectors - effectively you waste is 2 GCDs (one to cast the moonfire/sunfire) and one to cast the procc'ed SS and what you gain is the damage from the SS.

I looked at it both from the perspective of Eclipsed/NG'ed dots/SS as well as unEclipsed/no-NG. I based the dmg numbers and stats on my own toon's figures - credit to WrathCalcs for the figures - they are:

GCD: 1.30 (1.14 NG'ed)
Crit: 24.1% raid buffed
a) Starfire Avg Non-Eclipse Hit (Eclipsed): 88,058 (128,724)
b) Wrath Avg Non-Eclipse Hit (Eclipsed): 54,120 (79,114)
c) SS avg Non-Eclipse Hit (Eclipsed): 106,295 (155,383)
* these are average non-crit figures since crit affects all of these spells equally, I did not factor it into this analysis

Averaging out the SS procs over an entire cycle (and assuming you don't waste any procs by overlapping them) you get this:
d) Avg SS procs/dot cast with NG (non-NG): 0.67 (0.59)
e) Avg SS proc dmg Eclipsed (non-Eclipsed) [c X d]: 103,355 (62,506)

Opportunity Cost (ie: lost Starfire and Wrath damage):
f) Starfire Eclipsed (Non-Eclipsed): 144,435 (119,839)
g) Wrath Eclipsed (Non-Eclipsed): 98,806 (81,890)

Comparing (e) with (f) and (g) we can see that at these levels of crit, the additional SS dmg does not outweigh the lost damage from Starfire/Wrath.

Plugging in different values for crit, we can solve for the SS proc "breakpoints" which are as follows:

In Solar, with NG: 28% crit
Post-Solar no NG: 32% crit
In Lunar with NG: 34% crit
In Lunar no NG: 38% crit

This is a best-case scenario tho and likely with delayed reaction times and overlapping SS procs the actual breakeven figures are probably a bit higher than these would suggest.

- PP

[crunk]

thank you very much Pippilongear. i was actually thinking about this problem in the same terms and concluded you'd need a lot more crit than most people have currently. having the math laid out there is very nice and it lines up pretty much exactly with what my trial and error attempts looked like.