5.1 25-man Raid Changes in Asia

[Cybran]

I want this in Europe... I barely find time to play outside of my 3 raid nights, but this change is the only way to save 25 man raiding.

The clusterfuck Blizzard has unleashed with this change is huge. Now there will be Asia and Non-Asian world firsts. People like me will whine for this brought to NA/EU and other people will whine they don't want it. It's a complete debacle!

The most elegant way to sort this whole mess would be to make 25 man drop ALREADY upgraded items 2/2. This will keep the gear cap equal in Asia and the Rest of the world, keeping the world first races fair. This will give enough incentive for 25 man guilds to form and more then 10% as it is now.

The down side is that Valor will be useless for 25 man raiders since they will not be able to upgrade and bosses in Asia will still be harder which will completely screw over the world first race... There is nothing good that can come from this. This is why Ghostcrawler has been ignoring the lockout questions for 6 weeks.

[PowerGamez]

I'd quite enjoy these changes coming to US realms.

[Deleted]

And yes I understand people won't care about asia server, but I still feel sorry for Stars.

Agree, introducing this in the middle of a tier is pretty crap.

But I really hope it's a successful experiment and it makes it to EU servers.

---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 09:04 AM ----------

The more changes I see the more I feel correct in my opinion that there isn't a middle-ground Blizzard can reach on this.

Very true, sadly.

[cFortyfive]

That actually sounds pretty decent. Of course it sucks for the poor Asian beta testers - must be quite retarded to just see a boss being buffed right before a possible kill.

[Enosh]

I want this in Europe... I barely find time to play outside of my 3 raid nights, but this change is the only way to save 25 man raiding.

fuck that, I don't want to raid shit twice in a week just so some hardcore 25 man fanboys can sleep better at night
I go with the "free market" point of view on that one and the majority of the market has spoken that they don't give a shit about 25 man unless they are forced to do it

the only solutions I would agree with is:
-kill 25 man, go 10 man only
-kill 25 and 10 man, go 15 man only

edit:
and please don't give me the "you don't have to" we all know that is bullshit

[JIMM-]

lol, feel sorry about stars on the h- sha of fear boss buff making it near impossible to kill without stronger gears when they already got past the gear farming phase which was ~3weeks ago

off topic,
hope blizz bring in 15 man and kill both 25 and 10 in the near future ,

15 man raid feels just right on the sweet spot

[Deleted]

We thought that Korean players wish to enjoy the most hardcore contents more flexibly and according to their play styles.

What a load of crap.

[Deleted]

We thought that Korean players wish to enjoy the most hardcore contents more flexibly and according to their play styles.

What a load of crap.

The fact that this is even being tried means they saw something either in their data or in the other popular MMO's in Korea to make them believe it was something they needed to try.

So you might think it's a "load of crap", but you have nothing to base that on but your own stunted experience.

You happen to be Korean?
You happen to know something about the feedback and data from the Korean realms?
You happen to know about the end game raiding or other popular Korean MMO's?

No....didn't think so.

[Deleted]

The fact that this is even being tried means they saw something either in their data or in the other popular MMO's in Korea to make them believe it was something they needed to try.

So you might think it's a "load of crap", but you have nothing to base that on but your own stunted experience.

You happen to be Korean?
You happen to know something about the feedback and data from the Korean realms?
You happen to know about the end game raiding or other popular Korean MMO's?

No....didn't think so.

I'm sorry to intrude upon your infatuation with Blizzard, but there's no logical base to assume that Koreans want to experience hardcore content more flexible, or that Koreans have a significantly different playstyle than Europeans, Americans or Oceanics.

But in the end, your guess is as good as mine.

You happen to be a Blizzard data analyst?
You happen to know something about the feedback and data from the Korean realms?
You happen to know about the end game raiding or other popular Korean MMO's?

No....don't think so. So hush now.

[TequilaFlavor]

If this continues into 5.2, it might actually give Asian pro raid teams an unfair edge in the race to world first, which I would find disappointing despite not actively taking part in the race.

[wariofan1]

The morale of the story is this...

...say what you will... all things in WoW return to Wrath of the Lich King design, the king of the expansions. ^_^

Good thing that it looks like MoP does everything right, unlike Wrath which did everything wrong. LFR for the people who want to faceroll content instead of taking it out on normals and heroics. A story that's very solid and functional, unlike Wrath which had a terrible story, ruining the whole purpose of having a Lich King, and on top of that we got Dr. Claw as the main villain of the expansion.

Things aren't returning to Wrath design, only the heroics have which sucks, and I'm very happy that things aren't turning into Wotlk, else I'd have quit in the blink of an eye.

[Daerio]

fuck that, I don't want to raid shit twice in a week just so some hardcore 25 man fanboys can sleep better at night
I go with the "free market" point of view on that one and the majority of the market has spoken that they don't give a shit about 25 man unless they are forced to do it

the only solutions I would agree with is:
-kill 25 man, go 10 man only
-kill 25 and 10 man, go 15 man only

edit:
and please don't give me the "you don't have to" we all know that is bullshit

Blood Legion might have more alts than any other guild in the world. They stack their raids every week with, lets say 5 'main' raider toons, and 20 alts. (I don't know exactly how they do it, but I do know this is roughly correct) All gear goes to the main raiders toons, and they get their raid geared ~5x (RNG dependent) faster than anyone else in the world who doesn't do the same thing they do. They also raid the content 5x more often. They probably play the game and raid more than (or at least, as much as) anyone else in the world. Everyone else has the option to do this also.

Why doesn't everyone complain that this is 'required'? Because it isn't.

Just like if they brought split lockouts back, it wouldn't be 'required' to run both 10 and 25 if you didn't want to, or you weren't in a position to. Just like LFR really isn't 'required'. Hell, I got very little actual raid gear on this toon from drops, and I already don't need anything from MSV LFR - that's two ques off the list that I don't have to do any more, and it hasn't been very long since they came out.

This is an old topic that's been rehashed over and over, but the bottom lines:

People aren't able to choose between 25 and 10. Most of the time, on the vast majority of the servers, for the vast majority of people, 25 mans aren't an option because they don't exist/can't be organized appropriately. (especially factoring in server transfers, which are a bigger deal for 25s than 10s)

So this argument, "Decision's already been made, people choose 10s!" is complete bunk.

Blizzard recognizes the problem, and has issued the statement that they, "Want to do something about it, but aren't sure exactly what yet." (paraphased, but accurate) Blizzard also (probably) recognizes that their game will suffer if 25s fall completely off the map - which they are. The only 25 man guilds that still exist (in general) these days are (1) Super hardcore, raid all the time compete for world/US top rankings (2) Super casual, herding cats terribad. The middle has fallen out, and not because those "middle people" don't exist, or picked 10s because they prefer them.

(inb4 my computer sucks and I can only raid 10s QQ)

[Gsara]

Blizzard did this in cata as well saying there is no plans to use this system outside of the asian region. That could change I guess but I wouldnt be willing to bet this change would happen for the US and Euro regions.

[iggie]

Well, these "changes" aren't live on Chinese realms, but seeing as there is increased ilevel from 25 mans I can see why they need to buff it's difficulty a bit.

Blanketing "ASIA" which includes Korea/Taiwan and China is just silly.

[Enosh]

This is an old topic that's been rehashed over and over, but the bottom lines:

People aren't able to choose between 25 and 10.

of course they are, blizzard isn't putting a gun to anyone's head and saying they have to do 10 man

Most of the time, on the vast majority of the servers, for the vast majority of people, 25 mans aren't an option because they don't exist/can't be organized appropriately. (especially factoring in server transfers, which are a bigger deal for 25s than 10s)

they don't exist because people prefer 10 man, if people preferred 25 man more people would look for 25 man guilds and more 25 man guilds would exist, supply and demand

So this argument, "Decision's already been made, people choose 10s!" is complete bunk.

nope

Blizzard recognizes the problem, and has issued the statement that they, "Want to do something about it, but aren't sure exactly what yet." (paraphased, but accurate) Blizzard also (probably) recognizes that their game will suffer if 25s fall completely off the map - which they are.

game will be fine if 25 man dies

The only 25 man guilds that still exist (in general) these days are (1) Super hardcore, raid all the time compete for world/US top rankings (2) Super casual, herding cats terribad. The middle has fallen out, and not because those "middle people" don't exist, or picked 10s because they prefer them.

no one cares about top guilds except for that week when they are doing a end boss heroic
but yes middle 25 man guild barely exist, because those people prefer to do 10 man, more 25 man would exist if they didn't

[Omglavaburst]

Sooner or later Blizzard will go back to WotLK raid system. They stated that shared loot on both 10 and 25 mans was a biggest mistake they ever made.

[mvaliz]

Sooner or later Blizzard will go back to WotLK raid system. They stated that shared loot on both 10 and 25 mans was a biggest mistake they ever made.

They never said that it was the biggest mistake they ever made.

They did, however, finally acknowledge that 25 mans are dying off due to shared loot... some 2 years later when it has now grown beyond just being a minor problem. Now, they have to figure out how to implement it back to Wrath-model without making all those 10 mans feel like they need to go get 25 more people again...

Blizz... one thing I've learned about them is they're arrogant. They never look at what's going on in the bigger picture, and instead stick their fingers in their ears and deny the problem until it becomes a massive epidemic.

[Freia]

Sooner or later Blizzard will go back to WotLK raid system. They stated that shared loot on both 10 and 25 mans was a biggest mistake they ever made.

Source? Because I have never seen that.


They made the changes because Koreans do not pay monthly sub fees.

They pay for blocks of time they play, so Koreans were only paying for the time they raided then not logging on again until the next week. While for the resto of us who pay monthly subs, blizzard gets out money if we log on or not.

[Deleted]

The morale of the story is this...

...say what you will... all things in WoW return to Wrath of the Lich King design, the king of the expansions. ^_^

I still remember when WoTLK was the current expansion and it was criticized to hell for being the worst expansion ever. Ah, the good ol' days.

[Deleted]

Source? Because I have never seen that.


They made the changes because Koreans do not pay monthly sub fees.

They pay for blocks of time they play, so Koreans were only paying for the time they raided then not logging on again until the next week. While for the resto of us who pay monthly subs, blizzard gets out money if we log on or not.

You're confusing Korea with China here. Koreans on average are much wealthier than Americans, so why would they pay less for the sub?

The 10% HP/Dmg buff is justified, because without it 25man wouldn't deserve any better loot as it wouldn't be harder.