Why its bad/good to click?

[Tucci]

So far all I have seen in favour of clicking is claims of being able to do things as well as keybinders in very specific scenario. Even if I agreed with that, which I do not, wouldn't that mean that because you can only match a good keybinder in a few scenarios - keybinding is simply better because it outperforms in all the others?

Literally everything said about clicking being better is completely wrong.

You're not more "agile", you're slower. Having to move your cursor from button to button, meanwhile an experienced binder is pressing multiple buttons on the go in rapid succession and at the same time sometimes.
You're not more aware, you're MUCH less aware. Having to tunnel vision your UI because you have to see what you're clicking. No, peripheral vision isn't going to carry you here, lol.
You can't use more buttons. You can use WAY more buttons on the keyboard and mouse than you can on the screen.
And yes, you can easily use modifiers without stopping, lol. Alt+f is my focus interrupt on multiple toons.
Your UI is so much cleaner when you bind and therefore you have much more viewing space.
You WILL NOT make more mistakes on a keyboard than you will clicking, that's absolutely absurd. You would have to have huge on-screen buttons to accurately click as oppose to moving your fingers around the keyboard at a VERY accurate and fast rate.
And once again, the most IMPORTANT THING here is...YOU CAN MOVE FREELY AND AS FAST AS YOU WANT WHILE DOING ANYTHING you want. You CANNOT do this if you click, it's IMPOSSIBLE.

[This name sucks]

That's your problem, not mine.

I don't care either way with this subject, because I experienced both. But it's important to note if folks are going to argue the advantages of keybinds, do so accurately...don't let those biases consume critical thinking.

Tell me how its possible to do 33k dps with 372 gear while managing aids debuff, brain link, emergency crystal soaking, regular crystal soaking all while keyboard turning and presumably staring at your bars to click your buttons.

Do it.

Or is empirical statistics now a biased opinion.

[bionics]

Whether you want to admit it or not, clicking over keybinding is just slowing you down overall.

Plus, over time you actually develop muscle memory from tapping the keyboard for certain abilities. (i.e. Ever dusted off your main after playing an alt almost exclusively for a while? It just feels so natural, doesn't it?)

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Tell me how its possible to do 33k dps with 372 gear while managing aids debuff, brain link, emergency crystal soaking, regular crystal soaking all while keyboard turning and presumably staring at your bars to click your buttons.

You're asking a full time healer this?

[Phraun]

Lol I can't believe this thread is up to 29 pages. I posted reply after reply on a ton of pages way back there. I can't believe people are trying to argue against binding still. It's actually embarrassing at this point. I've posted why binding is the far superior way to play no matter WHAT you're doing so many times...my brain just hurts at this point. I've seen TONS of good replies as well. But yet...they still want to click, lol.

It's because you're arguing with the equivalent of religious zealots. They aren't willing to change, and they refuse to accept that what they're doing isn't the quickest, most efficient way to do it. They twist logic to try and support their positions, come up with absurd rationalizations, and get angry when people gawk at them. You're wasting your time. Believe me, I have one such in my guild.

Obviously, in the end people are free to do whatever they want, and indeed most clickers realize the drawbacks of that method of doing things. They keep doing it anyway, and that's fine for the most part; these guys aren't at the bleeding edge of raiding and/or pvp, and when you're vaguely wandering through the first half of MSV decked in world boss and LFR gear instead of heroic blues, the difference is less significant. Those clickers out there that want to improve and start binding as a part of that will seek help on their own. Really, the point is not to force everyone to bind, but to make sure the info gets out there for people to use if they so choose. The problem is you've got wingnuts running around with their heads in the sand, refusing to acknowledge any viewpoint but their own, spreading misinformation and giving the rest of the clicker camp a bad name.

You just have to ignore the zealots. That's all you can really do.

[mmines]

Everybody needs to stop replying to kevyne...and excellent post by randaagulf, that's pretty much your paper op.

[Gilian]

This post kinda makes you look silly to be honest.

I'd say most of raid bosses last at least 10 minutes, some go past 20 minutes.

I have no idea why I'm still reading this thread. It's about 1 stubborn clicker trying to convince
the whole MMO-Champion community that he can change the world by surviving 9 minutes in a
5man dungeon and then dying.

All his posts in this thread look silly to be honest. I think he feels bad about clicking since everyone is saying keybinds give a big advantage or he is just trolling.

---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 10:02 AM ----------

That's your problem, not mine.

I don't care either way with this subject, because I experienced both. But it's important to note if folks are going to argue the advantages of keybinds, do so accurately...don't let those biases consume critical thinking.

There is nothing to be accurate about. Keybinds are better than clicking.

Good thing I am not a moderator because I would have banned you already. Especially if those 3000 posts in less than a year are all like the posts in this thread. This is not being stuborn anymore this is just trolling and annoying people. Is it really that hard to admit that keybinds are better? Are you so proud of your clicking that this thread hurts your feelings or something? You can still click as much as you like after this, we really don't care.

---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 10:11 AM ----------

while i can't say too much due to not pvping (simply because i can't wrap my head around the necessities and therefore suck, a lot) i can say that clicking =/= keyboard turning. it is possible to flip with the mouse then click what you need. though like i said before it is a preference thing.

my moral is don't claim your way is better when someone can do it "wrong" and excel

Edit: oh and no that last part is not directed to you i just mean that in general.

I just don't understand why some people can't see that keybindings are in 99% (if not 100%) of the situations better. Do you seriously think that turning with your mouse (when a rogue attacks you from stealth) and then having to click is just as good as turning with your mouse and pressing a key?

It is preference but you can still just admit that keybindings are better since it has been proven over and over that they are. I really do not see the problem with this. What is so hard to understand? It's simply a fact that keybindings are better but yet people don't agree. How can you not agree with facts?

[marukale]

Clicking advantages:
If the mouse curser is over the button then clicking is faster than key press (compare mouse button sensitivity to keyboard sensitivity)
Higher density of buttons around focal point, optimal distribution of click-able buttons around the cursor (ie focal point) is 8 plus the one on the focal point assuming standard three button mouse used that's 28 abilities that can be clicked without watching the cursor (muscle memory works just as well for clicking with a mouse as it does moving to a key), keyboard optimal distribution of buttons is roughly 15 but depends on hand-span and if you use 4 fingers or 5 (this does not include modifiers as that is a separate point)
Higher CPM (clicks per minute) due to higher mouse button sensitivity without impact to joints. Can't think of a reason why in an MMORPG your CPM is important.
Focal point reset easier without looking, ie if you move your hand from a keyboard it's easy to put it back down in the wrong place, with your mouse a ui can reset around the cursor wherever it is.

Disadvantages
Mouse turning is more complicated (not impossible as some people seem to think)
modifiers requires two hands (or extra mouse buttons)
Less abilities at focal point, assuming 3 button mouse you have 3 abilities that don't require moving a cursor, with keyboard you typically have 4 or 5 that don't require moving fingers to different keys.

However other things are a much bigger factor, ie does the player know how to strafe, do they keyboard turn, do they use macros etc. Do they have a ui that supports their chosen method, the standard ui is really not suitable for clicking but can be used fairly well for keybinds but still isn't optimal.

The biggest difference between successful players in both PvE and PvP to unsuccessful is the ability to predict the next ability they will use and being ready to press it before it is ready, if they manage that 100% of the time then clicking is better than keybinding but managing 100% is pretty much impossible especially in PvP.

[Tucci]

Clicking advantages:
If the mouse curser is over the button then clicking is faster than key press (compare mouse button sensitivity to keyboard sensitivity)
Higher density of buttons around focal point, optimal distribution of click-able buttons around the cursor (ie focal point) is 8 plus the one on the focal point assuming standard three button mouse used that's 28 abilities that can be clicked without watching the cursor (muscle memory works just as well for clicking with a mouse as it does moving to a key), keyboard optimal distribution of buttons is roughly 15 but depends on hand-span and if you use 4 fingers or 5 (this does not include modifiers as that is a separate point)
Higher CPM (clicks per minute) due to higher mouse button sensitivity without impact to joints. Can't think of a reason why in an MMORPG your CPM is important.
Focal point reset easier without looking, ie if you move your hand from a keyboard it's easy to put it back down in the wrong place, with your mouse a ui can reset around the cursor wherever it is.

Disadvantages
Mouse turning is more complicated (not impossible as some people seem to think)
modifiers requires two hands (or extra mouse buttons)
Less abilities at focal point, assuming 3 button mouse you have 3 abilities that don't require moving a cursor, with keyboard you typically have 4 or 5 that don't require moving fingers to different keys.

However other things are a much bigger factor, ie does the player know how to strafe, do they keyboard turn, do they use macros etc. Do they have a ui that supports their chosen method, the standard ui is really not suitable for clicking but can be used fairly well for keybinds but still isn't optimal.

The biggest difference between successful players in both PvE and PvP to unsuccessful is the ability to predict the next ability they will use and being ready to press it before it is ready, if they manage that 100% of the time then clicking is better than keybinding but managing 100% is pretty much impossible especially in PvP.

Is this post a joke?

....Or are you actually being serious?

muscle memory works just as well for clicking with a mouse as it does moving to a key

The biggest difference between successful players in both PvE and PvP to unsuccessful is the ability to predict the next ability they will use and being ready to press it before it is ready, if they manage that 100% of the time then clicking is better than keybinding

[marukale]

Is this post a joke?

....Or are you actually being serious?

He was asking for the argument for and against clicking, my post provided that with pointers for places to look for the research papers that back up the facts. Most user input papers are not specific to MMORPGs so they need some tweaking, but there are many useful papers on pie menus if you have access to journals.

Just because you can't move a mouse cursor in a specific direction for a specific distance without looking, doesn't mean that it is hard.

From my experience of watching very good PvE and PvP players the biggest difference is their ability to know what is coming and that makes a huge difference. If you think the big difference is that they keybind over click then you aren't paying enough attention.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

From my experience of watching very good PvE and PvP players the biggest difference is their ability to know what is coming and that makes a huge difference.

Like in healing: landing the right heal at the right time. If done well it really doesn't take much clicking in the first place (why I prefer WoTLK healing where it was 10x more active). In arenas especially players can tell if the enemy has their CDs up, as well. Reducing the incoming damage is what saves a lot of work later.

The big point is for the OP to realize keybinding works better in other roles than healing. So blanket arguments of keybinding is better for everything does not compute. I could whip out some game controller and can give it every key combo for healing, but in the end it really wouldn't make much of a difference, as healing is more watching and waiting, not chasing bosses/adds.

[marukale]

Like in healing: landing the right heal at the right time. If done well it really doesn't take much clicking in the first place (why I prefer WoTLK healing where it was 10x more active). In arenas especially players can tell if the enemy has their CDs up, as well. Reducing the incoming damage is what saves a lot of work later.

The big point is for the OP to realize keybinding works better in other roles than healing. So blanket arguments of keybinding is better for everything does not compute. I could whip out some game controller and can give it every key combo for healing, but in the end it really wouldn't make much of a difference, as healing is more watching and waiting, not chasing bosses/adds.

Sorry, but if you think healing is about watching and waiting then you are doing it wrong.

I provided arguments for clicking but didn't draw any conclusion. I would strongly recommend keybinding for nearly all players trying to maximize their performance (my point is that it isn't the first thing I would recommend as there are much bigger things that need to sorted out first). You need a hughly optimized ui for clicking to compete which in some games isn't even possible (GW2 locks down ui changes meaning that a lot of the arguments for clicking are no longer valid as you can't have a focal point based ui).

[Bobum]

like I said, DPS can afford to miss, a healer screws up, players die.

This quote right here makes it pretty obvious you've never played PvE on a cutting edge level nor PvPd at a high rating.

Your dps have to be performing at peak levels when you're going at heroic content that you don't have the gear for, when you're pushing enrage timers or have things that need to die in a short space of time (Spine Heroic Tendons).
And your dps hitting the right buttons at the right time will be the difference between a kill in arena,

Clicking might be fine for LFR, normals and random bgs and if you want to click in those situations that is fine, but then trying to tell people who are playing the game on a MUCH higher level than you that your way is correct is ridiculous

[bionics]

Clicking advantages:
(muscle memory works just as well for clicking with a mouse as it does moving to a key)

I mean, to a certain extent, maybe. But the equivalent would be like walking ten paces and setting a glass on the kitchen table. (Clicking)

Whereas with keybinding, you already have the glass in-hand, are right next to the table, don't have to walk over there, and simply have to set it down.

[Gilian]

This quote right here makes it pretty obvious you've never played PvE on a cutting edge level nor PvPd at a high rating.

Your dps have to be performing at peak levels when you're going at heroic content that you don't have the gear for, when you're pushing enrage timers or have things that need to die in a short space of time (Spine Heroic Tendons).
And your dps hitting the right buttons at the right time will be the difference between a kill in arena,

Clicking might be fine for LFR, normals and random bgs and if you want to click in those situations that is fine, but then trying to tell people who are playing the game on a MUCH higher level than you that your way is correct is ridiculous

I'm curious if he is going to ignore you and just keep spamming or that he actually will start thinking about what he is saying right here. I think the first.

Clicking advantages:
If the mouse curser is over the button then clicking is faster than key press (compare mouse button sensitivity to keyboard sensitivity)
Higher density of buttons around focal point, optimal distribution of click-able buttons around the cursor (ie focal point) is 8 plus the one on the focal point assuming standard three button mouse used that's 28 abilities that can be clicked without watching the cursor (muscle memory works just as well for clicking with a mouse as it does moving to a key), keyboard optimal distribution of buttons is roughly 15 but depends on hand-span and if you use 4 fingers or 5 (this does not include modifiers as that is a separate point)
Higher CPM (clicks per minute) due to higher mouse button sensitivity without impact to joints. Can't think of a reason why in an MMORPG your CPM is important.
Focal point reset easier without looking, ie if you move your hand from a keyboard it's easy to put it back down in the wrong place, with your mouse a ui can reset around the cursor wherever it is.

Disadvantages
Mouse turning is more complicated (not impossible as some people seem to think)
modifiers requires two hands (or extra mouse buttons)
Less abilities at focal point, assuming 3 button mouse you have 3 abilities that don't require moving a cursor, with keyboard you typically have 4 or 5 that don't require moving fingers to different keys.

However other things are a much bigger factor, ie does the player know how to strafe, do they keyboard turn, do they use macros etc. Do they have a ui that supports their chosen method, the standard ui is really not suitable for clicking but can be used fairly well for keybinds but still isn't optimal.

In every case someone with keybinds will be more efficient.

If I lost four of my fingers on my left hand then yes you are more efficient by clicking spells than me using keybindings. See how this doesn't make any sense in this discussion?

The biggest difference between successful players in both PvE and PvP to unsuccessful is the ability to predict the next ability they will use and being ready to press it before it is ready, if they manage that 100% of the time then clicking is better than keybinding but managing 100% is pretty much impossible especially in PvP.

This has also nothing to do with what is better. If I can manage it 100% of the time with keybindings I am still more efficient than you when you click your spells. I also don't see how you can predict unpredictable things like someone else in your raid making a mistake and getting extra damage or damaging you. Someone else forcing you to move so you don't die etc.
You wrote all that and then you end with saying it is pretty much impossible. It is impossible. In PvP you mostly react to what others do and there is much less prediction than in PvE. In PvE you can't predict what your fellow raidmembers do. So this is also not a good argument.

One more edit then. Not really aimed at your comment.
Let's say Keyvne is healing in a raid by clicking and the other 4 healers use keybinds. What do you think will happen? They will snipe all his heals.
He can't predict who gets damage when a boss casts spell X on 5 random raidmembers. So what will happen is that the other healers, if they are not sleeping or something (so just as fast as Keyvne), will target the raidmembers and immediately press their heal while Keyvne will have to target the raidmembers and then move his mouse and then click to heal.
If he is using clique or something other healers will still be faster in a lot of situations. Let's say the same thing happens. Healers with keybindings will target the raidmember they want to heal in the meanwhile they press the keybinding to activate a trinket or some cooldown after that they immediately press a key to cast their heal. Keyvne will have to move his mouse to his cooldown button first. He can predict when to use his cooldown in most cases but the healers with keybindings will always be more efficient. Like I said there could be unpredictable damage or you could be busy with other stuff (in a lot of boss fights you barely get a chance to not cast anything and tbh there is always something to do dpsing instead of healing for example).

[ranku]

Is this post a joke?

....Or are you actually being serious?

i fail to see what part of that is ridiculous. he actually made a very logical argument then supported it.

[Gilian]

i fail to see what part of that is ridiculous. he actually made a very logical argument then supported it.

Not really. And he missed a lot of disadvantages that make his advantages look ridiculous.

[marukale]

I'm curious if he is going to ignore you and just keep spamming or that he actually will start thinking about what he is saying right here. I think the first.




In every case someone with keybinds will be more efficient.

If I lost four of my fingers on my left hand then yes you are more efficient by clicking spells than me using keybindings. See how this doesn't make any sense in this discussion?



This has also nothing to do with what is better. If I can manage it 100% of the time with keybindings I am still more efficient than you when you click your spells. I also don't see how you can predict unpredictable things like someone else in your raid making a mistake and getting extra damage or damaging you. Someone else forcing you to move so you don't die etc.
You wrote all that and then you end with saying it is pretty much impossible. It is impossible. In PvP you mostly react to what others do and there is much less prediction than in PvE. In PvE you can't predict what your fellow raidmembers do. So this is also not a good argument.

If the cursor is always above the button that needs pressing, before it is ready then the clicker is more efficient, a mouse click is quicker than pressing a key.

I presented advantages with facts that I had not seen mentioned in the thread and then the disadvantages that were associated, I drew no conclusions. To draw up a proper argument about which is better you have to understand in which scenario the clicker is better (and there are some despite what people claim) and then show those scenarios are outliers. You can then decide for the average fight (either PvE or PvP) which is better. This paper is presumably for education reasons (ie teaching him how to write a paper), I'm not going to give him a step by step instruction on how to write a paper, he has to learn something for himself.

---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 01:28 PM ----------

Not really. And he missed a lot of disadvantages that make his advantages look ridiculous.

I posted the advantages which either hadn't been mentioned (or not in a sensible fashion), i did scan through pages so may have missed them being properly mentioned somewhere, and then listed the disadvantages that influence the ability to use those advantages in a paper.

[Keoren]

While it has been stated already, I'd say that the biggest advantages to keybinding are mobility, including switching targets, and the ability to switch from one skill to another faster, with the latter being even more notable with abilities that are off the global cooldown. I also like being able to hide my bars.

[marukale]

I mean, to a certain extent, maybe. But the equivalent would be like walking ten paces and setting a glass on the kitchen table. (Clicking)

Whereas with keybinding, you already have the glass in-hand, are right next to the table, don't have to walk over there, and simply have to set it down.

In both cases you have to move part of your body, in the case of clicking you move your hand, in keybinding you move a finger. As the muscles in the hand and joints are heavily interconnected, moving a finger is actually the more complex, however as most people are use to the movements from typing it appears easier.