Should father have any say about abortion?

[Deleted]

Women are not SIMPLY baby incubators, they simply the ONLY baby incubators

This is true; however, I think it's a jump in logic to say that because women are the only incubators, they must have a child if they get pregnant.

It is a fact that only women can have children, but I don't agree this fact warrants forcing an unwilling mother to go through with a pregnancy.

I do agree if one of the partners doesn't want kids at the moment, it's definitely best if both parties use protection and the situation is prevented. However, even married couples who aren't screwing around face the risk of protection failing.

[Elim Garak]

Dude, i know this is a forum but you might want to learn to sentence.

Where did i say that men forgetting to withdraw is women's fault? 'withdrawing' implies that men know that their women is unprotected...

It's obvious, you are a woman hater and maybe for a reason or trolling but I've already stated my opinions on both sides so im not going to waste your/my time.

Dude, those were YOUR words, it was a quote of what YOU said. I only added stuff in [brackets] as commentary

[Vellauno]

Let me make another analogy. A man and a woman are stuck on a deserted island with a baby they did not want (accidental pregnancy) but were forced to have. While the food available can sustain adults, the only thing that can sustain the baby is breast milk. The woman has a rare condition where if she breast feeds, she will get very sick and even has a very very small chance that she will die! The woman does not want to have the baby anyways so she says "This is my body so I can refuse to breast feed my baby with it" thus causing the baby to starve to death. The father on the other hand says "I didn't want the baby either but it was just as much my fault that it was born as it is yours. Despite this, because of my own ethics, I refuse to let you let it die. It is your body but OUR baby. We are both responsible for it but since you are the ONLY one who can feed it, you have to feed it!".

This is true; however, I think it's a jump in logic to say that because women are the only incubators, they must have a child if they get pregnant.

It is a fact that only women can have children, but I don't agree this fact warrants forcing an unwilling mother to go through with a pregnancy.

I do agree if one of the partners doesn't want kids at the moment, it's definitely best if both parties use protection and the situation is prevented. However, even married couples who aren't screwing around face the risk of protection failing.

I am more saying that it is unfortunate that women are the only viable incubators in a situation where the father wants the baby and the mother does not. While the father may be willing to take care of the baby after it is born (not because the father wants to have a baby, but because his ethics dictate he take responsibility for his actions rather than kill the baby), there is no way for the father to incubate it. Since the mother can't chose weather or not she has to incubate the baby if one of them wants it to live, I think she should be forced to do so if the father wants to keep the baby (since the fetus/baby is just as much his as it is hers). Yes the body is hers, but so is the responsibility of the fetus along with the father. If the father is willing to take full responsibility for the 18 years after the baby is born, the mother should be forced to take responsibility for the baby for the 9 months it needs to incubate (because there is no other way to keep the baby alive otherwise).

[Austilias]

If women started demanding a say in whether males have vasectomies or not, then i'd consider it.

As it happens, women tend to leave men and their genitalia/sexual organs well enough alone, and thus the favour should be returned.

That said, beyond cases of rape/incest etc I think it would be courteous to talk the decision over with the man involved; I know I wouldn't be happy if my girlfriend and I were planning a baby and even conceived, only for her to abort the foetus without my knowing, but ultimately it's her body.

[Dezerte]

Let me make another analogy. A man and a woman are stuck on a deserted island with a baby they did not want (accidental pregnancy) but were forced to have. While the food available can sustain adults, the only thing that can sustain the baby is breast milk. The woman has a rare condition where if she breast feeds, she will get very sick and even has a very very small chance that she will die! The woman does not want to have the baby anyways so she says "This is my body so I can refuse to breast feed my baby with it" thus causing the baby to starve to death. The father on the other hand says "I didn't want the baby either but it was just as much my fault that it was born as it is yours. Despite this, because of my own ethics, I refuse to let you let it die. It is your body but OUR baby. We are both responsible for it but since you are the ONLY one who can feed it, you have to feed it!".

This analogy is a bit better, and you are saying that it's okay to decide what another person can do with their body.

Which is what I'm arguing against, I find the idea ridiculous that some think they have the right to decide over another person's body. There's no nice of saying this, but that is abuse.

[Trunksee]

Let me make another analogy. A man and a woman are stuck on a deserted island with a baby they did not want (accidental pregnancy) but were forced to have. While the food available can sustain adults, the only thing that can sustain the baby is breast milk. The woman has a rare condition where if she breast feeds, she will get very sick and even has a very very small chance that she will die! The woman does not want to have the baby anyways so she says "This is my body so I can refuse to breast feed my baby with it" thus causing the baby to starve to death. The father on the other hand says "I didn't want the baby either but it was just as much my fault that it was born as it is yours. Despite this, because of my own ethics, I refuse to let you let it die. It is your body but OUR baby. We are both responsible for it but since you are the ONLY one who can feed it, you have to feed it!".

Really bad analogy as it has nothing to do with real life. My wife was not able to produce enough milk for our daughter naturally so we used formula just like a man would do if he took the child at birth. Also you cannot deny a mothers connection with the child during pregnancy that she may want to be part of the babies life after birth. Its the same thing men go through after a child is born.

Since woman can make the ultimate decision on how both of their lives will go once pregnant men just want options. Currently we have none. She has the right to abort, keep, and the ultimate say in if he pays child support. It effects a mans life for just as long if the woman decides to keep the baby which the man doesnt want. Financial burden, stress, emotional distress over child support which if he could have.aborted he would have but sticks around knowing hes stuck. Ive been through it with my high school girlfriend who kept the baby and then took off with the baby but i still had to pay because its state regulated in RI so it goes against my credit score.

Maybe if men had the same right to abort the support payments more woman would be responsible and protect themzelves by taking their own precautions instead of relying on men. Isnt that the point of the feminists to stop the reliance on the other sex anyway.

Until men have an option to remove themselves from the lifetime burden of an unwqnted child its an unfair broken system coming from someone who lived through the worst part of an unwanted pregnancy.

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 07:56 AM ----------

You also lose a lot of people calling it a parasite implying non human invader. Now i know why its said like this but genetically its human upon conception. The dna is all there just hasnt fully formed yet kinda like a prepubecent person hasnt developed sexually yet. The father may see it as a child. If the father wants a funeral for the abortion since if you went full term and the baby died due to something in the womb people have them. My daughter was born this year at 30 week due to my wife having a unicorniate uterus and if we lost her we would have had a funeral. My point is just because you see it as one thing your forcing your beliefs on another.

[Vellauno]

and you are saying that it's okay to decide what another person can do with their body.

Only when no other reasonable option is available.

It is impossible to both maintain the women's right to use her body as she pleases by aborting AND maintain the father's right to the baby. Since one of the two terrible and unfair options allows for the baby not to be killed though, I take the no-killing/destruction option. One option is unfair to the mother for 9 months while the other is unfair to the father for his entire life.

I should be clear here though, BOTH options and VERY unfair. My opinion simply chooses what I consider the lesser of two evils. There is no clearly right or wrong answer in a situation where the only options given both suck.

[worsthitmanNa]

The father could also sleep with someone who wants a baby and not some chick he saw at a a club.

[Ebildays]

Really bad analogy as it has nothing to do with real life. My wife was not able to produce enough milk for our daughter naturally so we used formula just like a man would do if he took the child at birth. Also you cannot deny a mothers connection with the child during pregnancy that she may want to be part of the babies life after birth. Its the same thing men go through after a child is born.

Since woman can make the ultimate decision on how both of their lives will go once pregnant men just want options. Currently we have none. She has the right to abort, keep, and the ultimate say in if he pays child support. It effects a mans life for just as long if the woman decides to keep the baby which the man doesnt want. Financial burden, stress, emotional distress over child support which if he could have.aborted he would have but sticks around knowing hes stuck. Ive been through it with my high school girlfriend who kept the baby and then took off with the baby but i still had to pay because its state regulated in RI so it goes against my credit score.

Maybe if men had the same right to abort the support payments more woman would be responsible and protect themzelves by taking their own precautions instead of relying on men. Isnt that the point of the feminists to stop the reliance on the other sex anyway.

Until men have an option to remove themselves from the lifetime burden of an unwqnted child its an unfair broken system coming from someone who lived through the worst part of an unwanted pregnancy.

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 07:56 AM ----------

You also lose a lot of people calling it a parasite implying non human invader. Now i know why its said like this but genetically its human upon conception. The dna is all there just hasnt fully formed yet kinda like a prepubecent person hasnt developed sexually yet. The father may see it as a child. If the father wants a funeral for the abortion since if you went full term and the baby died due to something in the womb people have them. My daughter was born this year at 30 week due to my wife having a unicorniate uterus and if we lost her we would have had a funeral. My point is just because you see it as one thing your forcing your beliefs on another.

So your girlfriend got pregnant while you were using the condom or did you stop using condoms because you thought she was on birth control? It is one thing if birth control fails but it is another thing if you stop using your part of birth control because you did not like the feel or were tired of using it. What men want is for the woman to be ultimately responsible for birth control and to use abortion as a get out of jail free card. If that was not the case why is it that we have so many forms of birth control for women but only one form for men? Plus birth control can carry serious side effects from infertility (especial after prolonged use), cancer, strokes, and etc.

Now I do not agree with just letting a man walk away after he finds out about an unwanted pregnancy as I have stated in the board on men's rights but I think that it should be a way for men's wishes to be upheld legally before the pregnancy happens. And that men should wear a condom every time if they know that they do not want children. That is the only way that they can be sure( not 100%) that they are protecting themselves from an unwanted pregnancy. If they are not willing to even wear a condom to protect themselves should they really need to get a say so in an unwanted pregnancy?

Also if you are paying child support you have a right to see your child and you ex-girlfriend was suppose to seek your permission before leaving the state with your child.

[Deleted]

Only when no other reasonable option is available.

It is impossible to both maintain the women's right to use her body as she pleases by aborting AND maintain the father's right to the baby. Since one of the two terrible and unfair options allows for the baby not to be killed though, I take the no-killing/destruction option. One option is unfair to the mother for 9 months while the other is unfair to the father for his entire life.

I should be clear here though, BOTH options and VERY unfair. My opinion simply chooses what I consider the lesser of two evils. There is no clearly right or wrong answer in a situation where the only options given both suck.

Yah very true. If it helps, I think in a lot of cases, if the father really was willing and able to take full responsibility for the baby after being born, a lot of women would still care about the baby and choose that option willingly.

I don't know how often this occurs though. If the father wants the baby to be born but not take care of it, it affects her whole life still.

[Trunksee]

The father could also sleep with someone who wants a baby and not some chick he saw at a a club.

Accidents happen in all types of sotuations. No birth control is 100% effective but abstinance. And its both paties responsibility no matter how it happened. You lay it all on the man like a woman has no free will when it comes to sex. By stating it like this no woman would have sex without protection. Accidents happen and its more likely that it was unintentional on both sides hense both parties responsibility after the fact.

If you live in a country where men have all the say on who has sex let me know all the horny men can move there, but for now its both parties responsibility to determin the outlook of their lives not just womans

[Vellauno]

Really bad analogy as it has nothing to do with real life. My wife was not able to produce enough milk for our daughter naturally so we used formula just like a man would do if he took the child at birth. Also you cannot deny a mothers connection with the child during pregnancy that she may want to be part of the babies life after birth. Its the same thing men go through after a child is born.

Since woman can make the ultimate decision on how both of their lives will go once pregnant men just want options. Currently we have none.

I am sorry, I am not following you here. I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing even. I think men should have some sort of say in whether or not a baby gets aborted in situations where they willingly take all the responsibility and the mother gives up all responsibility after birth. It seems you may be agreeing with me, I can't tell. The analogy was meant to mean that since women can't chose to BOTH do what they want with their body by aborting (or in the analogy, breast feed) AND maintain the father's right to the baby by not killing it, the women should be forced to abide by what is in my opinion the lesser of two evils since she is just as responsible for the baby as the father is.

Also, I have no real opinion about weather or not fetuses are human, I just called it a parasite for argument sake in response to another poster who does not consider a fetus to be a human.

[Ceece]

Who's carrying the baby? Who's going through the pain when having the baby? Not the father. Before anyone says anything, I'm a male and agreeing that women should have more of the control. Yet the male should still be there to support her and help her make a choice.

[Trunksee]

So your girlfriend got pregnant while you were using the condom or did you stop using condoms because you thought she was on birth control? It is one thing if birth control fails but it is another thing if you stop using your part of birth control because you did not like the feel or were tired of using it. What men want is for the woman to be ultimately responsible for birth control and to use abortion as a get out of jail free card. If that was not the case why is it that we have so many forms of birth control for women but only one form for men? Plus birth control can carry serious side effects from infertility (especial after prolonged use), cancer, strokes, and etc.

Now I do not agree with just letting a man walk away after he finds out about an unwanted pregnancy as I have stated in the board on men's rights but I think that it should be a way for men's wishes to be upheld legally before the pregnancy happens. And that men should wear a condom every time if they know that they do not want children. That is the only way that they can be sure( not 100%) that they are protecting themselves from an unwanted pregnancy. If they are not willing to even wear a condom to protect themselves should they really need to get a say so in an unwanted pregnancy?

Also if you are paying child support you have a right to see your child and you ex-girlfriend was suppose to seek your permission before leaving the state with your child.

We were at the time i thought using double protection both condoms and her on the pill but she stoped taking and a condom broke. Se then waited until she was 4 months pregnant to tell me after i broke up with her. Come to find out she knew since a week after she mjssed. She waited so we had no choice because she knew i didnt want kids.

Your right shes not supposed to leave but it didnt stop her. I was paying by check directly to her, but she would hold the checks and say i wasnt paying. So i wrote a check for all of it and then she casbed all the other checks at once. She was nt a nice person about me leaving her and not marrying her. So I set it up with my state to pay them. Thats when she took off. I had no money for a lawyer as i was still in school paying school bills. It took me 7 years to get back om my feet lawyer up and get my rights terminated by the state, but she still had the right to veto it and thank god she didnt.

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 08:36 AM ----------

I am sorry, I am not following you here. I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing even. I think men should have some sort of say in whether or not a baby gets aborted in situations where they willingly take all the responsibility and the mother gives up all responsibility after birth. It seems you may be agreeing with me, I can't tell. The analogy was meant to mean that since women can't chose to BOTH do what they want with their body by aborting (or in the analogy, breast feed) AND maintain the father's right to the baby by not killing it, the women should be forced to abide by what is in my opinion the lesser of two evils since she is just as responsible for the baby as the father is.

Also, I have no real opinion about weather or not fetuses are human, I just called it a parasite for argument sake in response to another poster who does not consider a fetus to be a human.

I agree with youbut the parasite word pisses me off because its a PC word to make woman not feel so terrible about abortion. We have come so far in science since roe v. Wade. We have done so much in genetics the term makes no sense. Just call it what it is an unwanted human life. Doesnt make it any less legal to call it what it is.

[Dezerte]

Only when no other reasonable option is available.

It is impossible to both maintain the women's right to use her body as she pleases by aborting AND maintain the father's right to the baby. Since one of the two terrible and unfair options allows for the baby not to be killed though, I take the no-killing/destruction option. One option is unfair to the mother for 9 months while the other is unfair to the father for his entire life.

I should be clear here though, BOTH options and VERY unfair. My opinion simply chooses what I consider the lesser of two evils. There is no clearly right or wrong answer in a situation where the only options given both suck.

The father's rights ends where the woman's rights starts, her body. So I really don't know what you're talking about?

The lesser of the two evils would be to let the woman exercise her rights.

[Vellauno]

The lesser of the two evils would be to let the woman exercise her rights.

This is pure opinion. I do not agree. You can't prove that you are correct anymore than I can, thus, opinion.

The father's rights ends where the woman's rights starts, her body. So I really don't know what you're talking about?

This is total ludicrous trash. Men do not lose their rights to their babies simply because it is in the body of the female. By this logic, all children belong to the mother until THEY decide to let the father into the baby's life. Father's who are willing to take care of a life they made (even by accident) should have the right to deny the mother to murder their child.

A woman's right to do as she pleases with her own body certainly does not outweigh a father's right not to murder his child, especially when the life in question is partially the responsibility of the mother.

Your argument: The baby is in MY body, so it is all mine and I can chose to kill it if I want to and you get no say. It is my right to not have to go through 9 uncomfortable months and an excruciating delivery. It is equally my right to force the father to live the rest of his life facing the murder of his child that he did not agree to.

My argument: The baby is in YOUR body but it is just as much your fault that it is there as it is mine. Since you don't want the baby and I do (not because I want a baby, but because I do not believe in murdering them and am willing to take responsibility for my actions), you lose all rights to the baby. I say you can't kill MY baby! If you can figure a way to get it out without killing it, please do. Otherwise, too bad so sad, you screwed up by getting pregnant and now have to go through 9 uncomfortable months and a few hours of excruciating hell to give me what is rightfully mine. After that, I will take the baby that you wanted to kill and you can go on your mary way never looking back again.

[Dezerte]

This is pure opinion. I do not agree. You can't prove that you are correct anymore than I can, thus, opinion.

Sure, when it comes to morality there's no facts.

This is total ludicrous trash. Men do not lose their rights to their babies simply because it is in the body of the female. By this logic, all children belong to the mother until THEY decide to let the father into the baby's life. Father's who are willing to take care of a life they made (even by accident) should have the right to deny the mother to murder their child.

The father plays only a minor part in the making of the baby, it's the mother who does the hard part. A pregnancy is by definition unfair to begin with because the woman is doing all the hard work, thus it would be hypocritical to expect to have an equal say in the matter as a man. These are facts, not opinions.

A woman's right to do as she pleases with her own body certainly does not outweigh a father's right not to murder his child, especially when the life in question is partially the responsibility of the mother.

Yes it does, it's her body. This is an opinion, but I find your stance ridiculous and comparable to abuse. Whether you agree on that or not, at least you agree that abuse is wrong? (so you can see where I'm coming from)

Your argument: The baby is in MY body, so it is all mine and I can chose to kill it if I want to and you get no say. It is my right to not have to go through 9 uncomfortable months and an excruciating delivery. It is equally my right to force the father to live the rest of his life facing the murder of his child that he did not agree to.

My argument: The baby is in YOUR body but it is just as much your fault that it is there as it is mine. Since you don't want the baby and I do (not because I want a baby, but because I do not believe in murdering them and am willing to take responsibility for my actions), you lose all rights to the baby. I say you can't kill MY baby! If you can figure a way to get it out without killing it, please do. Otherwise, too bad so sad, you screwed up by getting pregnant and now have to go through 9 uncomfortable months and a few hours of excruciating hell to give me what is rightfully mine. After that, I will take the baby that you wanted to kill and you can go on your mary way never looking back again.

Opinions again, and I won't argue with you that I have the facts on this. I can only try and argue my PoV.

Btw, I'm a man.

[Soullord]

perhaps stop having sex or at the very least use protection if you don't want to get pregnant? rather than kill innocent living beings for the crime of being inconvenient.

[Ebildays]

We were at the time i thought using double protection both condoms and her on the pill but she stoped taking and a condom broke. Se then waited until she was 4 months pregnant to tell me after i broke up with her. Come to find out she knew since a week after she mjssed. She waited so we had no choice because she knew i didnt want kids.

Your right shes not supposed to leave but it didnt stop her. I was paying by check directly to her, but she would hold the checks and say i wasnt paying. So i wrote a check for all of it and then she casbed all the other checks at once. She was nt a nice person about me leaving her and not marrying her. So I set it up with my state to pay them. Thats when she took off. I had no money for a lawyer as i was still in school paying school bills. It took me 7 years to get back om my feet lawyer up and get my rights terminated by the state, but she still had the right to veto it and thank god she didnt.

Where do men find these crazy women!?

This is why men some type of way to legally say before hand that are giving up their rights. I would stop alot of crazy woman from trying to use a child as a way to trapt a guy into marriage or even worst as a punishment to men.

But I do have a question? Could you not tell that the condom broke? I know she said she was on the pill but that is the oldest trick since the pill came out why men still fall for it I have no idea. Plus alot of things can go wrong with the pill. For it to be the most effective a woman has to take it about the same time everyday. If a woman is sick and has taken antibotics the pill (not sure about other forms of birth control) will not work until the antibotics are out of her system.

Also why did you just not cancel the old checks before you gave her the one for the full amount? But at least you did better than some men by trying to set up a paper trail and lastly putting yourself in child support to protect yourself against her saying you were not paying her.

Lastly before we jump right to abortion, if you know that the condom has broken why not start looking for a place to buy the morning after pill? The amount of money it cost to get one is a lot cheap than 18+ years of child support.

[Trunksee]

No we knew it broke she refused the morning after pill. And i forgot she was on the depo shot actually and told me she went and got it when she didnt. Told me she got her period two weeks later, she didnt like to fool around when she had it so i never checked. Also there is a fee on canceling checks and i honestly thought she never recieved them as i was mailing them. This is what i mean thoigh this shit happens a decent amount of time. I was in an upper middle class family she was poor and saw me as a way out.