DREADFUL GW2 fps with brand new GTX 690

[vesseblah]

Just got my GTX 690 in tonight, and wow. Zero performance gain. My GTX 670 had better performance for christ sakes.

What’s the deal here?

SLI does not work with all games.

Most mmo's are also poorly coded in some areas. No matter what kind of hardware you have there will most likely be a plateau where the poor coding wont allow your system to utilize it's full potential.

Got any proof on that? No? Right...

Problem is that MMOs have hundreds of players visible at the same time, braindead first person shooters... well.. none. Maybe one if you're playing on third person view.

[Libram]

Most mmo's are also poorly coded in some areas. No matter what kind of hardware you have there will most likely be a plateau where the poor coding wont allow your system to utilize it's (its) full potential.

Got any proof on that? No? Right...

Problem is that MMOs have hundreds of players visible at the same time, braindead first person shooters... well.. none. Maybe one if you're playing on third person view.

Both of you are correct. Many visible players at the same time can impact performance, but more mainstream MMORPG's are pretty well optimized for current systems to run their game at 60fps in a large crowd (however that can still depend).
Now the MMORPG market is flooded with hundreds more that aren't very well known and ARE badly optimized. Mostly due to their age and low budgets. I've played plenty that were dead of players and still handled poorly.

[Badpaladin]

I guess it depends on what the definition of well-coded is. There's probably something that could be done w.r.t. having the GPU handle more of the necessary calculations if it's powerful enough. I wouldn't be shocked of GW2 has minimal "GPU acceleration", since it's a difficult thing to code for, ANET isn't a huge studio and their budget wasn't as large as other games. However, from what I could tell without illegally decompiling their source, GW2 seems pretty well coded compared to most MMORPGs. It's not some insanely sluggish beast, but I wouldn't be shocked if it's not utilizing high-end hardware as well as other games.

That said, even though there's probably a lot more that could have been done, the CPU is still generally the workhorse for MMOs and since the OP already has an awesome CPU it's not surprising that FPS didn't change. I'm sure if he loaded up a game like BF3 or TW2 he'd see a much larger frame rate increase.

[Tehterokkar]

MMOs are CPU bottlenecked.

I run WoW with ~60% CPU usage(That's about 2 full cores(i5-2500k) + other background programs) and GPU usage is barely hitting 20% on a GTX 580 with Full Ultra in Raids(25m) getting 30-50 FPS.

Upgrading your GPU is actually the worst thing you can do in MMOs(unless it's a really old one lol). I remember reading that a 560 TI is far enough to max out WoW.

Try out a game such as Metro 2033, Battlefield 3 or Far Cry 3(Although I heard SLI is bad in this game?) if you wish to see how your GPU performs.

[Drunkenvalley]

Firstly, understand that a lot of games need drivers to cater to them for SLI. If you haven't already, make sure that you've got the most up to date SLI profiles for the games you're playing.

Secondly, a lot of games won't see a benefit from SLI whatever you do, because frankly they don't support SLI, or SLI is even detrimental to the performance. Try turning off SLI for the game and see how things work in the game.

[Milkshake86]

Firstly, understand that a lot of games need drivers to cater to them for SLI. If you haven't already, make sure that you've got the most up to date SLI profiles for the games you're playing.

Secondly, a lot of games won't see a benefit from SLI whatever you do, because frankly they don't support SLI, or SLI is even detrimental to the performance. Try turning off SLI for the game and see how things work in the game.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this times a billion, its simply a fact First person games with intense graphics (usually shooters but not limited too) are usually designed from the ground up w/ enthusiast settings where as WoW ultra is very very very far from enthusiast anything.

---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 09:21 PM ----------

I guess it depends on what the definition of well-coded is. There's probably something that could be done w.r.t. having the GPU handle more of the necessary calculations if it's powerful enough. I wouldn't be shocked of GW2 has minimal "GPU acceleration", since it's a difficult thing to code for, ANET isn't a huge studio and their budget wasn't as large as other games. However, from what I could tell without illegally decompiling their source, GW2 seems pretty well coded compared to most MMORPGs. It's not some insanely sluggish beast, but I wouldn't be shocked if it's not utilizing high-end hardware as well as other games.

That said, even though there's probably a lot more that could have been done, the CPU is still generally the workhorse for MMOs and since the OP already has an awesome CPU it's not surprising that FPS didn't change. I'm sure if he loaded up a game like BF3 or TW2 he'd see a much larger frame rate increase.

The bad coding myth comes from BLIZZARD, MMO's are not all coded badly. Simply games are NOTHING but math problems over and over. Now Shooting games and a lot of the heavier graphic games using SLI etc utilize less game mechanic math and more graphic math. Think all the coefficients in wow and how 10million things can alter your damage healing damage taken etc, in BF3 for instance each vehicle has a coefficient and every individual has the same one so you get something like

Bullet damage * Chest modifier = 70

or very similar you get the drift. So they can go much deeper on the gpu aspect and see better performance w/ better looks. If you had WoW w/ the coding it has and coefficients w/ BF3 graphics no PC would run a 5m @ 60 FPS

[Badpaladin]

Well with the architecture of GPU's a lot more than just rendering math can be done, and computed much more efficiently than on a CPU. The issue is that there's so much more work and time invested in doing that properly; I imagine it would take building the game probably from scratch with a minimal baseline as far as code is concerned (not to mention finding people who can even do that well). Every aspect of programming the game would have to be approached differently, and there could potentially be a few more systems to be engineered to handle data transfer . That kind of time requirement isn't really feasible in the gaming industry, especially if it's a small studio like ANet.

[Drunkenvalley]

Milkshake, bear in mind that GPUs are pretty much ideal for exactly the math you mentioned. GPUs can do stupid large amounts of simple arithmetic, which is more or less what most of the MMO math consists of to begin with.

[vesseblah]

The bad coding myth comes from BLIZZARD, MMO's are not all coded badly. Simply games are NOTHING but math problems over and over. Think all the coefficients in wow and how 10million things can alter your damage healing damage taken etc, in BF3 for instance each vehicle has a coefficient and every individual has the same one so you get something like

Bullet damage * Chest modifier = 70

What makes multiplayer games slow is two main things:

1) Waiting for internet lag
2) Processing what all players do. There's 20 or 200 bullets hitting chest at the same time, not just one. That means 20 or 200 times more actions per second that GPU can't help with.

[Deleted]

MMOs are CPU bottlenecked.

I run WoW with ~60% CPU usage(That's about 2 full cores(i5-2500k) + other background programs) and GPU usage is barely hitting 20% on a GTX 580 with Full Ultra in Raids(25m) getting 30-50 FPS.

Upgrading your GPU is actually the worst thing you can do in MMOs(unless it's a really old one lol). I remember reading that a 560 TI is far enough to max out WoW.

Try out a game such as Metro 2033, Battlefield 3 or Far Cry 3(Although I heard SLI is bad in this game?) if you wish to see how your GPU performs.

a 560ti is enough to max out BF3 as well, but you will still see improvements if you upgrade.

That being said, GW2 isn't very graphical so you won't see much of an increase, it is mostly CPU.

[Tehterokkar]

a 560ti is enough to max out BF3 as well, but you will still see improvements if you upgrade.

That being said, GW2 isn't very graphical so you won't see much of an increase, it is mostly CPU.

Depends if you think 30 FPS is enough(not to mention the basic 560 TI doesn't have enough VRAM to run full settings 1080p)... I prefer 55-60 or more when I play games.

[Cyanotical]

What makes multiplayer games slow is two main things:

1) Waiting for internet lag
2) Processing what all players do. There's 20 or 200 bullets hitting chest at the same time, not just one. That means 20 or 200 times more actions per second that GPU can't help with.

this is very clear when your camera is in view of two separate zones, at certain camera angles my fps plummets to 35 fps

i would think though that this would have little impact on frame rate rendering, your client should be able to run at 100+ fps even if it's standing around waiting for data from the server

most of this becomes apparent when you look at gpu usage with graphics maxed, most of the time mine sit there and twiddle their thumbs at 30-40% usage, even if wow is only running at 35 fps, meaning they could deliver more, but they just dont

i think what mmo's need is a layer that clears the GPU to render frames regardless of data input, so instead of waiting for new data from the server or CPU, the GPU could just repeat the same data until it receives new data, this would smooth things out immensely, and allow for much higher end systems to take advantage of newer tech

as well as let blizzard actually create better graphics, they can only hide behind the "artistic style" excuse for so long

[Milkshake86]

I don't see FPS drops in any game from internet latency ever. I may see someone running in place but im fairly certain when I cannot cast spells and am mid DC I still have 60 FPS standing in the middle of nowhere. I'd also mention I've never heard the hitmaker sound 20 or even 10x on a single person. Rather 10 bullets into a clip in MW BF hell anything "realistic" and the opponent is dead, MW what 2 bullets in the legs from an Mp7 is nearly death all the time. CPU being slowed down in MMO's has to do with the insane overflow of math being thrown at it. I guess in a sense its similar to internet being bogged down from a lot of users but Idk, never seen someone w/ a lag switch bitch about low fps.

[wombinator04]

Ok on MSI afterburner, only 1 GPU is being used. Only at 51% too.

So Guild Wars 2 isn't even using my 2nd GPU. Yes multi-gpu is turned on so It's got nothing to do with me.

And my 2500k is only getting up to 65% usage also.

[Milkshake86]

Milkshake, bear in mind that GPUs are pretty much ideal for exactly the math you mentioned. GPUs can do stupid large amounts of simple arithmetic, which is more or less what most of the MMO math consists of to begin with.

Indeed, but we arent too that point of tech yet where normal everyday gamers have a GPU doing cpu tasks. Soon tho

---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 11:50 PM ----------

Ok on MSI afterburner, only 1 GPU is being used. Only at 51% too.

So Guild Wars 2 isn't even using my 2nd GPU. Yes multi-gpu is turned on so It's got nothing to do with me.

Then you are actually receiving a detriment from using SLI.

[wombinator04]

Indeed, but we arent too that point of tech yet where normal everyday gamers have a GPU doing cpu tasks. Soon tho

---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 11:50 PM ----------



Then you are actually receiving a detriment from using SLI.

You could say that. But even when not using SLI(or multi-gpu is what their calling it) I get the same exact fps if not even worse.

[Milkshake86]

You could say that. But even when not using SLI(or multi-gpu is what their calling it) I get the same exact fps if not even worse.

Keep in mind detriment doesn't refer to lower frames. It means ill side effect, i.e using power to try and use an inactive gpu, generating extra heat for nothing. So on and So on. Again, GW2 has no need or use of a 690, for that game specifically and most MMO's you just bought a big old epeen belt buckle, not a substantial upgrade worth the money. If you were going hammer on say BF3 you might notice something, hell even Crysis 1.

[Deleted]

a 560ti is enough to max out BF3 as well, but you will still see improvements if you upgrade.

That being said, GW2 isn't very graphical so you won't see much of an increase, it is mostly CPU.

Just about max out BF3 on ultra. Mine used to get around 35 FPS on 1920x1080 but dip to like 20-25 if in some really heavy shit. Much happier with the 670 ^_^

Is the OP running on a SSD? Maybe his HDD is bottle necking him when loading all the additional people and what not.

[Milkshake86]

Just about max out BF3 on ultra. Mine used to get around 35 FPS on 1920x1080 but dip to like 20-25 if in some really heavy shit. Much happier with the 670 ^_^

Is the OP running on a SSD? Maybe his HDD is bottle necking him when loading all the additional people and what not.

$800~ gpu, if he doesnt have an SSD he needs a smack upside the head.

[vesseblah]

as well as let blizzard actually create better graphics, they can only hide behind the "artistic style" excuse for so long

Watch this few times and compare start and end of the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqBkUqOMacA

Graphics are up to date when you look at the world and creatures in MoP. Problem is that what people see first is the fugly vanilla era player models which is the only thing left untouched. And when the low poly count vanilla character is sitting in the middle of your screen, brain just blocks out the background which is actually really good.