Affliction - why so high on meters?

[Deleted]

Explain how the top 200 (parses) is better than 100? If anything, affliction doesn't change much since its a highly played spec. But the specs few people play, due to better specs being available - arms, unholy DK, and even destruction warlock - will get shit on since there were so few (good) parses to begin with.

Those are the specs you are complaining about being underpowered, perhaps it's not even 200 good players putting parses up of these inferior specs (as compared to the class).

Because looking at combined top 200 of every spec will provide a more accurate median or mean. Quantitative statistical analysis require a sample of 200+ to be judged as reliable. 200 is actually the sweetspot, after 200 the added accuracy of sample to total population is increasing at a lesser rate. Raidbots also shave off outliers if im not misstaken which is a optional method for increasing accuracy.

Just looking at combined top 100 will just show the front outliers, and most likely RNG based specs will dominate there.. Also tactics/padding/meterwhoring will make the sample much less reliable due to smaller sample, and therefore biased towards the total population.

Regarding speccs and sample size, you can most likely draw the conclusion that any player with a competititive mindset will play the specc that performs the best out of each class, the logical comparison would therefore be Aff locks vs arcane mages vs fury warriors vs frost dks etc etc etc.

as an example destruction warlocks are probably not displayed correctly on worldoflogs due to the small portion of raiding warlocks playing that spec, any comparison class vs class would have to therefore be made with the dominant spec of each class.

[nightfalls]

http://simulationcraft.org/422/Raid_T12H.html
T12, Demonology way top and Aff was 4th.

http://simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T13H.html
T13, Demonology was 3rd, and Aff was 7th.

You're posting sims. The nerf camp says sims don't mean anything, then they look at raidbots. When the raidbots don't support their conclusions, they fall back onto their sims.

Point of the matter was warlock was a bad class, overall, for dragon soul progression. They weren't bottom but were definitely nothing to sneeze at in firelands. That says nothing about meter-padding (raidbots) fights after the tier is over, nor does it say anything about patchwerk (which sims are) at all.

I normally wouldn't say this, but I don't see any other explanation. You must be REALLY bad at Affliction to not understand why it needs a nerf. I'm sorry that you're not pulling numbers that are head and shoulders above every class other than mages, but the rest of us are.

As bad as you are at logic? That's pretty terrible, I'd have to admit.

Because looking at combined top 200 of every spec will provide a more accurate median or mean...

You're missing the point. The reason most people say top 200 instead of 100 is selection bias. We're only looking at top ranked players. But the fact is that many MORE players will play affliction than arms or unholy, which means the top 200 will be filled with *all* amazing parses. The top 200 of arms and unholy may have "less amazing" parses, especially after the top 100.

[Teye]

OP in almost every single fight? Go look at World of logs. Which Raidbots is based off of.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...t_of_Fear/dps/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/

So if this is the sample set, then affliction doesn't look OP at all. What people are seeing is locks in a place they aren't used to seeing them. And yes, make sure you select 25H.

I trust a site where you can actually see the top 100 parses over one that just says it.

Ok, let's talk common sense for a minute.

25 Heroic HoF.

Zor'lok, Affliction dominates the top 10 rankings.

Blade Lord, one Fire Mage from before the Fire nerf, and the rest is Affliction domination.

Garalon, Combat Rogues because of Blade Fury, which is being nerfed. If we look past melee (Who dominate that fight because of its mechanics), we get Affliction at 190k; 45k better than the best Demonology, 20k better than the #1 Shadow Priest, 15k better than the best Fire mage from post nerf, 50k above the best Elemental, 15k above the best Boomkin, 40k above the best Hunter from all three specs. Complete domination.

Wind Lord is dominated by Tank dps because of vengeance and AoE. Demonology obviously out performs Affliction on sustained AoE, but Affliction still stands above all three hybrid dps specs, all three hunter specs, all melee dps. The only 2 specs other than Demonology that beat it are Fire (Pre-Nerf) and Arcane.

Rankings on Amber Shaper are completely unreliable due to the Mind Control mechanic. Ranking on that fight is RNG. All the Fire parses that are dominating the top 10 are from Pre-Nerf.

Shek'zeer is another fight dominated by tank dps due to vengeance and AoE. Looking past Tank rankings, Affliction is 20k above any other spec other than (yet again) pre-nerf Fire.

Let's look at MV...

Stone Guards, dominated by tank dps. Looking past that, as well as pre-nerf Fire, Affliction is top.

Feng, dominated by Tank dps due to Shroud of Reversal. Looking past it... Affliction dominates.

Gara'jal is completely subjective to how well your class benefits from the buff gained in the spirit realm. Affliction is ranking top 10, and other than some black magic by Zum, is dead even with Arcane and Fire, and way above everything else.

Spirit Kings is one fight that Affliction isn't great on, but it still out does every melee spec, as well as all of the hybrid specs and hunter specs.

Elegon and Will are completely dominated by Affliction.

I'm sorry to say this, but you just got schooled. Please learn how to read logs.

Fire was dominating every fight in the tier, so they were nerfed. Affliction is going to get the same treatment, and we absolutely deserve it.

Note, I ignored any and all logs from Asian servers due to their higher ilvl gear, as well as the double lockout stuff. Simply isn't fair to compare them to EU or US anymore.

...When the raidbots don't support their conclusions...

Raid Bots are based off of WoLs. WoLs supports our conclusions without a doubt. If you're too blind to see it after the facts I just put on the table, you're never going to get it. I'm done wasting my time explaining it to you. I'll see you in the "Warlocks are ruined, I quit" thread you'll probably make next month.

[PickleballAce]

They're too busy nerfing mages, and letting the hybrid classes swim at the bottom of the barrel to do anything about warlocks.

But no, really, when was the last time warlocks were really nerfed? It's been ages.

Dragon Soul was a very forgettable tier for Warlocks, and it was a long tier. It wasn't that long ago that we weren't at the very top of the pile.

If you're trying to sell some idea that Warlocks are the developers' pet, then nobody's buying that.

And Mages are fine.

[nightfalls]

Garalon, Combat Rogues because of Blade Fury, which is being nerfed. If we look past melee (Who dominate that fight because of its mechanics).... Complete domination.

Wind Lord is dominated by Tank dps because of vengeance and AoE. Demonology obviously out performs Affliction on sustained AoE.... The only 2 specs other than Demonology that beat it are Fire (Pre-Nerf) and Arcane.

Spirit Kings is one fight that Affliction isn't great on...

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

If I ignore the top specs on every fight, then affliction is top?

---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 05:57 AM ----------

If you're too blind to see it after the facts I just put on the table, you're never going to get it. I'm done wasting my time explaining it to you. I'll see you in the "Warlocks are ruined, I quit" thread you'll probably make next month.

If you had bothered looking, which isn't hard given my armory is in my signature, you would see that I've already switched mains some time ago, and that my warlock hasn't been touched much since.

You'll also notice I never said warlocks should be untouched. They are being nerfed, and I haven't posted an issue about it. I did say, however, that it is good that GC doesn't seem to be knee-jerk-reaction nerfing warlocks to the ground. Somehow you and others took issue with that statement. Hence my long list of quotes of your outbursts above.

It's really ironic though, the only one who's been crying in this thread is you.


Between your Zor'lok post, and this one, I can safely say this quote of wisdom:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" - Abe Lincoln.

[PickleballAce]

What i don't get is why locks get KJ, casting while moving seems a bit of when you already have a spamable filler when on the move, fel flame is currently way stronger than the instant SWP SP have

Probably the same reason why Shadow Priests get silly amounts of mana back just from DPSing while non-Destro Warlocks have to Life Tap and put extra pressure on healers just to continue dealing damage (comparing hybrid mana to something like the Demo mana hog kinda makes it look like the specs are all playing a different game). Or why a Destro Lock has an actual AOE rotation while Spriest gets to pop Mind Sear on the tank and grab a beer from the fridge. I really don't want to sound patronizing, but this is one of those 'different classes are different' deals.

Mechanically, Shadow has been in a really good place other than the movement thing for a while. But SWP on the move does make KJC look amazing.

MOP fixed a lot of our problems, but before that Warlocks probably could have written the book on bad class mechanics (pet swapping, bad pet AI, shadow embrace, ISF, needing to be in melee range for max damage, etc.).

[Seezer]

1. inaccurate to look at top 100; rather look at All Parses (multiple reasons).
2. I never said Warlocks are OP.

Because that's what raidbots goes off of. Top 100 parses.

Look http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/

[Deleted]

Explain how the top 200 (parses) is better than 100? If anything, affliction doesn't change much since its a highly played spec. But the specs few people play, due to better specs being available - arms, unholy DK, and even destruction warlock - will get shit on since there were so few (good) parses to begin with.

Those are the specs you are complaining about being underpowered, perhaps it's not even 200 good players putting parses up of these inferior specs (as compared to the class).

Raidbots has this smart feature where it filters out the specs that aren't sufficient parses from; also, assuming it's the HC parses that are being looked at (should be if you want accurate information), you can pretty much be certain that the parses you see are from skilled players.

---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 08:19 AM ----------

Because that's what raidbots goes off of. Top 100 parses.

Look http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/

Not if you set it to "All Parses". Which you should.

[cabana]

Why are you blaming aff locks for blizzards lack of consistent class balance? Someone has to be #1. Might as well be a class that is the 3rd to lowest played classes, brings no utility raid healing, and brings 0 real buffs. Dark Intent is garbage compared to what a mage brings. Hell it even overwrites it when they throw up Arcane brilliance. Don't get me started on CoE, because every raid seems to have a rogue who supplies it. If we were middle to lower overall in dps why would anyone bring a warlock? Why wouldn't you just bring a boomkin who supplies haste, brez, tranq, and off heals?

[Seezer]

Raidbots has this smart feature where it filters out the specs that aren't sufficient parses from; also, assuming it's the HC parses that are being looked at (should be if you want accurate information), you can pretty much be certain that the parses you see are from skilled players.

---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 08:19 AM ----------


Not if you set it to "All Parses". Which you should.

So what on that chart makes you say only affliction? Because they're on top? Someone is always on top. This hasn't been the case for locks in a while. It's not like you're seeing locks with a 150k average and the next spec below at 80k.

[Zepheyr]

Teye, why are you ignoring post 59?

I thought it brought a lot to the table.

[Revan Bane]

Almost everything you've said in this thread so far has been completely wrong, and very obviously based on a blind desire to keep your class OP.

You're right, a desire to see the game more balanced rather than seeing Affliction continue to dominate nearly every fight of the tier means we've got no sense. /sarcasm

I normally wouldn't say this, but I don't see any other explanation. You must be REALLY bad at Affliction to not understand why it needs a nerf. I'm sorry that you're not pulling numbers that are head and shoulders above every class other than mages, but the rest of us are.

Checked your guild's logs, and you weren't playing Affliction on one fight in this expansion. Seems to me you just want more love for Demo/Destro, and there's nothing wrong with that, just don't see why all the hate towards Affliction.

And as I already said, I don't mind if our numbers get nerfed, played lock through everything they threw at us, I just hope this kind of attitude doesn't result in the class getting broken or having to rely on clunky mechanics again. I'd expect other classes pulling this kind of stuff, but not our own, since you should know damn well the class was finally fixed with MoP and we don't need to get messed with. Especially since we lost our class dev and who knows what the other guy is going to pull.

[Deleted]

What afflicion? Our warlocks go destruction for every single fight for "survivability". Both of them. One of 'em is a clicker though, you think Destro is better suited for a clicker?

[noaim]

Ok, let's talk common sense for a minute.

25 Heroic HoF.

Zor'lok, Affliction dominates the top 10 rankings.

Blade Lord, one Fire Mage from before the Fire nerf, and the rest is Affliction domination.

Garalon, Combat Rogues because of Blade Fury, which is being nerfed. If we look past melee (Who dominate that fight because of its mechanics), we get Affliction at 190k; 45k better than the best Demonology, 20k better than the #1 Shadow Priest, 15k better than the best Fire mage from post nerf, 50k above the best Elemental, 15k above the best Boomkin, 40k above the best Hunter from all three specs. Complete domination.

Wind Lord is dominated by Tank dps because of vengeance and AoE. Demonology obviously out performs Affliction on sustained AoE, but Affliction still stands above all three hybrid dps specs, all three hunter specs, all melee dps. The only 2 specs other than Demonology that beat it are Fire (Pre-Nerf) and Arcane.

Rankings on Amber Shaper are completely unreliable due to the Mind Control mechanic. Ranking on that fight is RNG. All the Fire parses that are dominating the top 10 are from Pre-Nerf.

Shek'zeer is another fight dominated by tank dps due to vengeance and AoE. Looking past Tank rankings, Affliction is 20k above any other spec other than (yet again) pre-nerf Fire.

Let's look at MV...

Stone Guards, dominated by tank dps. Looking past that, as well as pre-nerf Fire, Affliction is top.

Feng, dominated by Tank dps due to Shroud of Reversal. Looking past it... Affliction dominates.

Gara'jal is completely subjective to how well your class benefits from the buff gained in the spirit realm. Affliction is ranking top 10, and other than some black magic by Zum, is dead even with Arcane and Fire, and way above everything else.

Spirit Kings is one fight that Affliction isn't great on, but it still out does every melee spec, as well as all of the hybrid specs and hunter specs.

Elegon and Will are completely dominated by Affliction.

I'm sorry to say this, but you just got schooled. Please learn how to read logs.

Fire was dominating every fight in the tier, so they were nerfed. Affliction is going to get the same treatment, and we absolutely deserve it.

Note, I ignored any and all logs from Asian servers due to their higher ilvl gear, as well as the double lockout stuff. Simply isn't fair to compare them to EU or US anymore.

Most of those fights are "dominated" because of KJC. Ofc its gonna be a huge advantage to be able to move and cast without losing any dps. On Garalon for example, a warlock SHOULD basically do as much as a melee, since they can run and dps legs just as well as any melee.

But basically what your post says is "aff warlocks are the best in some fights, and if you ignore the classes that are better at other fights, they are the best in those too. But compared to hybrids they are always better, so nerf them to that level". Did it occur to you that maybe its the hybrids that need a buff?

If they nerf afflictions based on arguments like yours, its basically solely because of KJC, and the spec would suffer heavily on low movement fights (like Feng, where you for some reason see them dominating apart from tanks? I dont see that but ok). I am not saying affliction is bad at Feng now, but it sure as hell isnt dominating, and if a 20% nerf or whatever you are preaching for goes through, affliction would obviously not be very competetive on a fight like that.

This tier however has alot of movement in fights, and if affliction was extremely overpowered in singletarget dps, it would stand out alot more than it actually does due to losing no dps while moving, something no other caster spec (except destro and demo, but demo doesnt really need KJC for it and destro could use a buff) can do.

[Nyaldee]

Wish blizz redestribute affliction dmg between spells - that corny MG design gutted spec for pvp purpose. Shelved my beloved lock since beta, i saw where it's going. Unfortunatly.

[nightfalls]

Wish blizz redestribute affliction dmg between spells - that corny MG design gutted spec for pvp purpose. Shelved my beloved lock since beta, i saw where it's going. Unfortunatly.

Same, except it took me a wasted beginning of an expansion to shelve it, MG was the main reason.

[Deleted]

MG is fun!

[Deleted]

How much do you know about how affliction as a spec works, just wondering? Personally I don't claim to be an expert, but top 100 and even top 200 parses can reflect classes with more "spread" than not, for instance, which is why mages got to enjoy top parses, without nerfs, for a large part of DS.

Also, I looked over the logs, what are you talking about when you say "top 10 of 14/16 fights." I can see maybe 4-5 fights, max, where affliction has even decent (let alone ALL of) representation in the top 10 spots of fights. A lot of those fights (elegon, will of the emperor), as GC even said, are outliers.

I'm really wondering what you meant by that statement...

What people don't realise, one of them being you is how well mages scale with gear (especially crit). It reduces the RNG factor by a lot. And because there were so many mages doing DS hc (cus it was lolfaceroll anw), the final tier of an expansion where ratings are high, you can't expect even some of them to not have incredible RNG (a lot of crits) and you just can't compete with that unless your class is just OP at that current time; which I am not saying it is but that's the reason mages were top during that time. It's also the reason they were top in ICC, 80% crits...yeah gg.

[Revan Bane]

I'm playing Affliction thankyouverymuch.
I don't just want the spec "down for the hell of it".

No, you don't. You're playing an Elemental Shaman, you have a Warlock alt.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...4#post19350314

Tired of playing Elemental Shaman, have to work so hard to even be competetive. Gets worse and worse, scaling is horrible at the moment. Being topped by equally geared, lesser skilled players sucks. I want to play something GOOD - hell, even overpowered. And preferably something that will stay good (guessing this is only guaranteed for pures).
How is Hunter looking after the buffs, and Mage after the nerfs? How are Warlocks without multidotting?

Raidbots seems pretty inconclusive. Does seem like BM, Aff, Fire, Frost DK and Fury are the ones competing for the top spots though.

(I don't care for "play what you enjoy the most"-responses. I enjoy high DPS).

Input?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...6#post19551236

Question from a non-warlock: Assuming the GoSac nerf will result in GoSac and GoSup being almost even (will it?), which minion would be the best? And how significant is the difference?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19481601

I've decided to dust off my old Warlock. I'm at 86, and I'm wondering how I should go about leveling - spec/talents etc., stuff like that. Both for questing, for dungeoning, and - if I get so far - heroics at level 90.

So, a couple of questions - what would be the most optimal spec for soloing/questing? And playstyle (pull one at a time, two at a time, mass pull etc.)?

How about dungeons? I can see all three specs being relatively close here, would that be right? How about playstyles for the different specs when doing dungeons - would I care to SB: SoC (or just ordinary SoC) at all, or should I just multi-dot? And for Demonology - how often should I do Metamorphisis (and when), and should I bother multi-dotting Corruption for the Demonic Power (?) gain?

Thanks in advance - any help is appreciated.

So tired of "I'm a (insert class) and even I think we're overpowered!" threads.

[Hellfury]

What people don't realise, one of them being you is how well mages scale with gear (especially crit). It reduces the RNG factor by a lot. And because there were so many mages doing DS hc (cus it was lolfaceroll anw), the final tier of an expansion where ratings are high, you can't expect even some of them to not have incredible RNG (a lot of crits) and you just can't compete with that unless your class is just OP at that current time; which I am not saying it is but that's the reason mages were top during that time. It's also the reason they were top in ICC, 80% crits...yeah gg.

mages were also top in Firelands, those big parses at gatekeeper blowing everyone out of the other, but ppl forget that.