Is blizzard pulling a blizzard on pvp again?

[Feranor]

Trion Worlds says hello.

Gershlol.

RIFT could have been a great game, but a number of things killed in in the first 2-3 months:

- The players wanted World PvP, not battlegrounds. Trion didn't listen.
- Warriors were horribly overpowered until the first major patch.
- Adam Gershowitz (Lead Designer) buffed his pet class (Pyromancer) to a CC-immune one-shot machine with the first major patch, similar to what he did in WAR with his Bright Wizard.
- You could only queue for Battlegrounds with 5 players, but the smallest BG was 10vs10. So depending on your server you always played together with 5 brainless PvE spec tanks in crap gear against 2 premades.
- PvP gear was absurdly powerful and the grind for it horrendously long, so certain groups who farmed literally 24/7 from release and used a certain bug exploit to get unlimited points were able to effortlessly shit on everyone else for months to come.

Despite some mistakes made, the developers already admitted that and are QUICKLY correcting them. This expansion PVP is quickly shaping up into one of the better ones already, and more fixes are on the way. You want to keep crying and making a fuss out it, that's your choice. I am going to keep playing and enjoying the game.

Better in what sense? More viable 3v3 setups? Crap is still crap, even when there are more flavours to choose from. Blizz needs to fix the fundamental issues (e.g. CC immunity, PvE/PvP separation, interrupt system, World PvP) because if they don't, the cycle will just keep repeating itself (new, untested content breaks everything, then Blizz takes months to band-aid fix what they broke before the next untested content breaks it again).

[Kalan]

Seems hard to accept for fanboys that the PvP is far from being acceptable...

[Phoenexis]

Gershlol.

RIFT could have been a great game, but a number of things killed in in the first 2-3 months:

- The players wanted World PvP, not battlegrounds. Trion didn't listen.
- Warriors were horribly overpowered until the first major patch.
- Adam Gershowitz (Lead Designer) buffed his pet class (Pyromancer) to a CC-immune one-shot machine with the first major patch, similar to what he did in WAR with his Bright Wizard.
- You could only queue for Battlegrounds with 5 players, but the smallest BG was 10vs10. So depending on your server you always played together with 5 brainless PvE spec tanks in crap gear against 2 premades.
- PvP gear was absurdly powerful and the grind for it horrendously long, so certain groups who farmed literally 24/7 from release and used a certain bug exploit to get unlimited points were able to effortlessly shit on everyone else for months to come.




Better in what sense? More viable 3v3 setups? Crap is still crap, even when there are more flavours to choose from. Blizz needs to fix the fundamental issues (e.g. CC immunity, PvE/PvP separation, interrupt system, World PvP) because if they don't, the cycle will just keep repeating itself (new, untested content breaks everything, then Blizz takes months to band-aid fix what they broke before the next untested content breaks it again).

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, your opinion is not a fact. I'm sure many players would find getting CC'ed for 60 seconds horrible, or even whole raids versus raids (as epic as they may sound) horrible with the mass AoE zerging and whatnot. You aren't really in position to call a whole PvP system complete shit, just because you don't like it. Many players enjoy confined spaces and battles to death like arena.

[Feranor]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, your opinion is not a fact. I'm sure many players would find getting CC'ed for 60 seconds horrible, or even whole raids versus raids (as epic as they may sound) horrible with the mass AoE zerging and whatnot. You aren't really in position to call a whole PvP system complete shit, just because you don't like it. Many players enjoy confined spaces and battles to death like arena.

I don't have opinions. I have conclusions that I've arrived at using reasoned logic and the best evidence available to me. Unlike opinions, those can be challenged. I don't care what "many players" do or do not like, I care about good versus bad design choices. Playing the opinion card, i.e. stating that "It's all just opinions, so let's call it a wash." is a waste of everyone's time.

The DAoC model of having essentially 3 different types of 120 seconds (Mezz and Root, stuns are up to 10 seconds) duration CC (roughly cut in half by magic resistance stats and buffs, and, depending on class further reduced by certain buffs and passives; so that a newly resurrected player can be CC'd for up to 90 seconds if their group messes up whereas a fully buffed tank will break it after ~9 seconds) coupled with 60 seconds immunity works. The WoW model of having 12(?) different CC categories with progressive diminishing returns doesn't.

If you die from CC in DAoC it's your own group's fault for not spreading out on inc, having your Demezz classes get caught in bad positioning, pushing too far past rooted group members etc. pp. In WoW none of these things even exist because PvP happens in a padded room; and most of the CC is unavoidable anyway. Which is one of the reasons why balance is nigh impossible to achieve. Again, no crumple zone.

[Phoenexis]

I don't have opinions. I have conclusions that I've arrived at using reasoned logic and the best evidence available to me. Unlike opinions, those can be challenged. I don't care what "many players" do or do not like, I care about good versus bad design choices. Playing the opinion card, i.e. stating that "It's all just opinions, so let's call it a wash." is a waste of everyone's time.

The DAoC model of having essentially 3 different types of 120 seconds (Mezz and Root, stuns are up to 10 seconds) duration CC (roughly cut in half by magic resistance stats and buffs, and, depending on class further reduced by certain buffs and passives; so that a newly resurrected player can be CC'd for up to 90 seconds if their group messes up whereas a fully buffed tank will break it after ~9 seconds) coupled with 60 seconds immunity works. The WoW model of having 12(?) different CC categories with progressive diminishing returns doesn't.

If you die from CC in DAoC it's your own group's fault for not spreading out on inc, having your Demezz classes get caught in bad positioning, pushing too far past rooted group members etc. pp. In WoW none of these things even exist because PvP happens in a padded room; and most of the CC is unavoidable anyway. Which is one of the reasons why balance is nigh impossible to achieve. Again, no crumple zone.

You know, prior to MoP, you could actually counter stuff. And how do you not get into a chain CC if you're in bad positioning even in arenas? Before instant retarded spells like Blood Fear came in, positioning was extremely important and made a big difference. I'm not saying that WoW has the perfect PvP system (as a matter of fact I do not like MoP PvP), but it doesn't mean that the whole base of the game sucks. When I'm talking about your opinion, I'm talking about you praising mass RvR fights while bashing the arena system. I'm not just spewing random stuff out of my mouth to prove you wrong and defend my beloved MMO, I'm just asking you to post with less zeal and stop pretending as if DAoC had the best PvP mechanics.

Before MoP you couldn't just inevitably chain your opponents into endless CC without any effort while mindlessly zerging a target (unless you were triple DPS), and that too is a fact.

[Feranor]

You know, prior to MoP, you could actually counter stuff. And how do you not get into a chain CC if you're in bad positioning even in arenas? Before instant retarded spells like Blood Fear came in, positioning was extremely important and made a big difference. I'm not saying that WoW has the perfect PvP system (as a matter of fact I do not like MoP PvP), but it doesn't mean that the whole base of the game sucks. When I'm talking about your opinion, I'm talking about you praising mass RvR fights while bashing the arena system. I'm not just spewing random stuff out of my mouth to prove you wrong and defend my beloved MMO, I'm just asking you to post with less zeal and stop pretending as if DAoC had the best PvP mechanics.

Before MoP you couldn't just inevitably chain your opponents into endless CC without any effort while mindlessly zerging a target (unless you were triple DPS), and that too is a fact.

I'm not praising mass RvR (though farming the zerg was fun as hell), but rather 8vs8. Open World PvP is just better in general, mostly because it allows for more variety (i.e. it's far less repetitive, not nearly as punishing for not running the currently best group setup, doesn't remove PvP from the rest of the game and allows for a non-anonymous community to form, which is the biggest incentive to play fair). DAoC is merely the best, or only, example of how this can be done.

Think of any Arena season and you'll find something that was completely broken and took Blizz forever to fix. Mostly due to PvP being an untested afterthought crippled by constant and reckless PvE changes. Every expansions brings us more instant cast crap and cooldowns. And by now Arena has degenerated into having at least 3 /cast @ macros for each of your abilities that do all the work for you.

[konway]

I'm not praising mass RvR (though farming the zerg was fun as hell), but rather 8vs8. Open World PvP is just better in general, mostly because it allows for more variety (i.e. it's far less repetitive, not nearly as punishing for not running the currently best group setup, doesn't remove PvP from the rest of the game and allows for a non-anonymous community to form, which is the biggest incentive to play fair). DAoC is merely the best, or only, example of how this can be done.

Think of any Arena season and you'll find something that was completely broken and took Blizz forever to fix. Mostly due to PvP being an untested afterthought crippled by constant and reckless PvE changes. Every expansions brings us more instant cast crap and cooldowns. And by now Arena has degenerated into having at least 3 /cast @ macros for each of your abilities that do all the work for you.

I played a lot during the first 3-4 seasons and can't think of a single thing that was "completely broken and took Blizz forever to fix". There were some comps and classes that were clearly over-represented in gladiator rankings, but individual player skill was infinitely more important during those seasons than it is now. The biggest problem in early arenas was the fact that you needed PvE gear to be competitive at the highest ratings.

PvP balance has gotten progressively worse with each expansion, and it doesn't help that PvP now requires even more micromanagement than ever. Hell, I need an addon just to manage my addons because I have so many, and I STILL can't track all the friendly/enemy cooldowns I need to in arenas. I have 24 spells and/or macros bound to my mouse alone, but I could easily use another 15-20. WoW honestly feels more like flying a commercial jet with no auto-pilot than playing a game these days. The sheer amount of buttons required to control a character in PvP would make an astronaut pull their hair out.

[Feranor]

I played a lot during the first 3-4 seasons and can't think of a single thing that was "completely broken and took Blizz forever to fix". There were some comps and classes that were clearly over-represented in gladiator rankings, but individual player skill was infinitely more important during those seasons than it is now. The biggest problem in early arenas was the fact that you needed PvE gear to be competitive at the highest ratings.

PvP balance has gotten progressively worse with each expansion, and it doesn't help that PvP now requires even more micromanagement than ever. Hell, I need an addon just to manage my addons because I have so many, and I STILL can't track all the friendly/enemy cooldowns I need to in arenas. I have 24 spells and/or macros bound to my mouse alone, but I could easily use another 15-20. WoW honestly feels more like flying a commercial jet with no auto-pilot than playing a game these days. The sheer amount of buttons required to control a character in PvP would make an astronaut pull their hair out.

I do agree that the first 3 seasons were the best, but still; I remember when SPriest + Affli was almost unbeatable and so everyone bought green Shadow Resistance gear off the AH to beat them (you could swap gear during the match), and then there was Mace Stun Warrior using Stormherald (a.k.a. Rogue in Plate), Warglaives at some point and a couple of other things I'd have to look up. S4 saw the usual damage explosion before the next reset (WotLK) which gave us DKs, Prot Paladins, Haste Proc Wizard Cleaves, Shadowmourne and so on and so forth.

The macro nonsense is also one of the reasons why I don't play Arena. There shouldn't be group frames, timers etc. of your opponents, nor macros to target them. They make things too easy, and at the same time too cumbersome because of the ridiculous setup and sheer amount of key binds required.

[ScottsdaleHokie]

When are you clowns going to figure out that if you want balanced PvP, stick with CoD, Halo, CS or any other freaking FPS out there. You are NEVER going to get it in an MMO.

[Phoenexis]

I'm not praising mass RvR (though farming the zerg was fun as hell), but rather 8vs8. Open World PvP is just better in general, mostly because it allows for more variety (i.e. it's far less repetitive, not nearly as punishing for not running the currently best group setup, doesn't remove PvP from the rest of the game and allows for a non-anonymous community to form, which is the biggest incentive to play fair). DAoC is merely the best, or only, example of how this can be done.

Think of any Arena season and you'll find something that was completely broken and took Blizz forever to fix. Mostly due to PvP being an untested afterthought crippled by constant and reckless PvE changes. Every expansions brings us more instant cast crap and cooldowns. And by now Arena has degenerated into having at least 3 /cast @ macros for each of your abilities that do all the work for you.

But from what I'm reading through your post, DAoC has the best PvP experience. And that's what I read from most posters that talked about the game. It was centered around PvP, and the feel of the game around that aspect was the best ever until EA screwed everything. What I'm purely talking about is the balancing of mechanics, which I found great during Cataclysm if you left out triple DPS, PvE gear and double smoke bomb.

[Deleted]

Like many have said. If you do not play it , do not care about it. All you do is come here to starte a rage storm.

But just to ask. how can you know what the problem is if you do not play it? for if you say data from this forum, or just the blue posters. People always bitch about everything. You will probaly find people who find rogues OP and some would say warriors where under power in 5.0

[Feranor]

But from what I'm reading through your post, DAoC has the best PvP experience. And that's what I read from most posters that talked about the game. It was centered around PvP, and the feel of the game around that aspect was the best ever until EA screwed everything. What I'm purely talking about is the balancing of mechanics, which I found great during Cataclysm if you left out triple DPS, PvE gear and double smoke bomb.

Well, if you stuffed DAoC 8vs8 into an Arena cubicle it would instantly crash and burn. It involves a whole lot of moving all over the place, just look at how a Berserker is played (on regular servers, i.e. not ARS):



Maybe WoW PvP would function if it were played on DAoC's terrain. It just might.

[Conjor]

PvP balance has gotten progressively worse with each expansion, and it doesn't help that PvP now requires even more micromanagement than ever. Hell, I need an addon just to manage my addons because I have so many, and I STILL can't track all the friendly/enemy cooldowns I need to in arenas.

This x10000. You sir... You win the Internet.

[velde046]

Keep in mind, you're talking about a company that thinks a tie in capture the flag shouldn't be a tie or go into overtime. They obviously don't have a clue about how competition should be. They're good developers in general, but in this area they're awful.

Right, just because they don't do thing YOUR way, they're awful... there's still a bunch of people that actually enjoy PVP out there... otherwise Blizzard would have taken it out of the game anyway. I do believe that PVP and PVE don't mix well, if you want to do PVP you're better of doing a game like Call of Duty or something to that effect. But apparently it's still good enough to keep people entertained, and enough people to keep developing stuff for PVP....

@OP, I find it sad you are this upset about a game you don't even play.... post comes across as very populistic tbh.

[Deleted]

If you don't play it shouldn't concern you anymore.

What about i don't play because of the new WOW mentality but I would still play it if the old mentality up live again so i am here just cheeking the best wow new's forum so i could see if I should jump ship or not?

[Deleted]

If you don't play it shouldn't concern you anymore.

It's like stalking your highschool girlfriend at age 30.

tbh it people like you who ruin wow and probably ask GC or the devs stupid questions, the majority of people who play wow are so ignorant they think any opinion apart from theres is wrong, so your saying if someone has been in a profession or played a single game for years or there whole life there not allowed to talk about it. and then you get idiots who support you saying +1 and all that shite, the internet spawned good and bad people and im one of the goods your one of the bads so take you and your friends back to 4chan

[Linzo]

Trion Worlds says hello.

not a fair comparison, Trion only has to provide support for 8 people.

[Terridon]

The time limit alone takes care of the never ending matches. And tell me, how exactly is it any more fair for the team that capped second to be able to turtle than it is for the first team to do it? It's actually worse, because at least in the case of a 1 to 0 turtle, the team that capped at least earned the right to turtle by being ahead of their opponent. When the score ties, both teams should have to put equal effort into capping again to break the tie, instead of one team getting to sit back and relax while the other scrambles.

Didn't say it was fair. It annoys me in terms of that, but i can understand the reason.
Most people would just afk the second they see the other team cap the flags first, since being behind and cap 2 flags is unlikely to work out. So probably just to get the game going.
I know there's a timelimit, but even then, 20 minutes is pretty boring. That's when time is better spent afk'ing, doing som chores while you wait for it to be over.