The Game Was Better When.....

[Thage]

I say basic English says your statement is faulty. Notice how you used "tried". Because yes, they did "try" to make it harder, too bad their execution was bad.

The game was objectively harder than Wrath was full stop. They made the game harder than it was in ICC's run. They kept that philosophy until 4.3 (which stabilized the sub bleed for its first quarter), which introduced the HoT 5-mans (which were easier than the release and 4.1 5-mans, assuming content-appropriate gear for each) and LFR (which was easier than Firelands while offering better gear).

[Sanguinerd]

it doesn't matter. if there was 5 million plaers left, but they would all really like the game, it would be better.

And what gives you the idea 5 million people that play right now don't enjoy the game? It's only a small minority you see crying and shouting on forums...

[Phasma]

Cataclysm tried making the game harder. It lost over 1.5 million players in its lifetime.

MoP made the game easier again. The player base went back from 9 to 10 million in the first quarter.

Basic math says your position is faulty.

The keyword is "tried". Cataclysm "tried" a lot of things and failed at them... miserably. I will take challenging content over more easy content any day.

[Deleted]

it doesn't matter. if there was 5 million plaers left, but they would all really like the game, it would be better.

Better for whom? Not for Blizz, that's for sure.

[Plutarch78]

Totally agree brother. They need to stop handing out epics that took you 5 mins of AFKing in LFR to get. I want:

LFR removed.

LFG removed.

Dungeon/raid attunments back.

Crafting gear from raids costing more and increasing their usefulness.

No more heroic modes! Every boss is hard as it is presented with.

More single boss raids.



Taking away LFR and LFG will really bring the community back I think. Shit I know it will when things become hard again they become cool again. It took you 2 weeks to get that epic? Nice! it now means something.

Fuck that shit. The day Blizzard goes back to that model (which I doubt they will) is the day I quit my sub. Go play EVE if you want to be a special snowflake.

[Thage]

The keyword is "tried". Cataclysm "tried" a lot of things and failed at them... miserably. I will take challenging content over more easy content any day.

The game was objectively harder than Wrath was full stop. They made the game harder than it was in ICC's run. They kept that philosophy until 4.3 (which stabilized the sub bleed for its first quarter), which introduced the HoT 5-mans (which were easier than the release and 4.1 5-mans, assuming content-appropriate gear for each) and LFR (which was easier than Firelands while offering better gear).

See above. Also notice that MoP made the game easier than Cataclysm in its entirety, and has regained a million subs that Cata bled in its first quarter.

[GennGreymane]

What was WoW' population during Vanilla? 1, maybe 2 million?

right before tbc

it was 7 million or more

[sadface]

the game was better at the start of my addiction

[Deleted]

And what gives you the idea 5 million people that play right now don't enjoy the game? It's only a small minority you see crying and shouting on forums...

I didnt have any specific number on my mind, I just wanted to point to the guy with the love for big numbers, that game would still be good or even better with few millions casuals left behind.

[DeathKnight Guy]

Your analogy is moot from the starting point. You can't compare a country and a gaming company. They're not managed by the same rules (you can unsubscribe from an MMO but it's slightly harder to do for a country), and they do not pursue the same objectives.

For a gaming company, it is fundamental to follow the social evolution of both the potential and actual playerbases, because otherwise, the playerbase turns to competition (something which is easier to do than change countries). At the same time, you have to make sure that your choices are economically defensible (i.e. you won't develop content for a tiny minority of players within the game).

Consequently, starting from LK, Blizzard had to steer away from the BC and LK model because a) they realized it was no longer defensible, b) that the playerbase was changing and c) the whole MMO market was about to stagnate, making gaining new customers more difficult and churn high more likely. Based on those economical and social considerations, they made the decision of a) making end-game content less restrictive than it previously was, b) allowing easier catch-up for people who started mid-expansion and c) remove some of the infamous mechanics which led to player poaching and thus an unhealthy social climate withing the game (I'm referring to attunements obviously). Thus, we had LK. The LK model was not perfect (it lacked hard modes in its first tier - except Sartha) but at the end, we got a model which was holding up. Cata, unfortunately, messed up quite a lot of things, but MOP is coming along nicely to correct the above.

Btw, Mr. Canadian, where are the epixx I can get in dungeons in MOP, cause I only seem to get blues...

Listen man, you got me all wrong from the start. I AM NOT arguing for the same point as all the others are, I am FINE with LFR, LFG, all these new QoL. But I am NOT fine with their execution, they SUCK. They are not done properly, they do not help new players in getting more skilful, nor do they keep you active. I can level up to level 10 in less than an hour. From there I can go sit my ass down in a fucking corner, and go from 10-90 WITHOUT MOVING FROM THAT SPOT. Then I am able to STAY in that spot and gear myself fully with EPIX for doing a couple of days worth of LFR and HC dungeons. That is 99% of the game spent, and nearly completed (PvE content wise). It's a good thing that Blizzard still has dailies, achievments and vendors. Because everything can be DONE FROM A F*CKING CORNER, from raids to arenas, from dungeons to battlegrounds THERE IS NOTHING WHICH I CANNOT DO from a corner. That really sounds like a good game huh?

[Thage]

I didnt have any specific number on my mind, I just wanted to point to the guy with the love for big numbers, that game would still be good or even better with few millions casuals left behind.

At what point is 'good' subjective and when is it objective? A game that has ten million people paying every month just to play it, that regularly delivers new content for no extra cost and every year or so delivers a huge chunk of new content for less than the yearly subscription, can be easily called good subjectively, while changes that cause its player base to drop by half would leave it 'good' in regards to the people still playing it while those who were left behind would likely share a very different assessment.

[Argorwal]

The raiding portion of the game is still as hard as ever. I don't see where this "this game is so easy now" comments are coming from. You can't compare LFR to Sunwell, that's not a fair comparison.

The old model (Vanilla and TBC aka "glory days") mixed easy, normal, and heroic difficulty all in same raid. This lead to loot pinatas for decent guilds like Najentus, Supremus, and Akama, essentially setting any guild up at 3/9 by just walking into BT. Lets not forget MH, which gave you 5/5 for showing up. A lot of guilds full cleared MH 1 raid after finishing the attunement to get in. It also created brick walls like Kael/Vashj due to their difficulty, and the attunement which required their kill before progressing. How many people here would be happy never getting to see Dragonsoul because the attunement was to kill Heroic Rag with no nerfs?

The current model allows for a full tier of hard bosses for the people who want a challenge. A full tier of easier bosses for more casual raiders, and LFR which lets anybody who wants to see the raid in. If anything, and according to top guilds like Method, the heroic mode bosses have only been getting harder, with MoP having some of the most difficult fights ever put into the game (per their interview). It just also has an easier setting, just like most video games. The rewards reflect this as well, with heroic modes giving the best rewards. I'll bet 99% (made up statistic on the spot) of people claiming the game is too easy has not even come close to clearing the heroic modes in MoP.

[Deleted]

I didnt have any specific number on my mind, I just wanted to point to the guy with the love for big numbers, that game would still be good or even better with few millions casuals left behind.

Again, better for whom?

[Deleted]

At what point is 'good' subjective and when is it objective? A game that has ten million people paying every month just to play it, that regularly delivers new content for no extra cost and every year or so delivers a huge chunk of new content for less than the yearly subscription, can be easily called good subjectively, while changes that cause its player base to drop by half would leave it 'good' in regards to the people still playing it while those who were left behind would likely share a very different assessment.

dude you argument was wrong. Cata was hard = lost od suscribers. MoP is easier = 1 milion more subs. Didnt you think it may have more connection with releasing new expansion more then difficulity? (hell, Cata broke the selling record for Blizzard). Lets wait and see how dumbing down content made impact on subs in long run.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against casuals playing and paying, I just disagree with your statement that game was better when it had 10 millions because it was slighlty easier.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 06:49 PM ----------

Again, better for whom?

not for whom, but why.
Why do you ask? because of quality, beacuse 5 millions is still huge number. I jsut mean game could be better even with fewer ppl playing, I have nothing agains casuals.

[postpunk27]

I'm a casual rogue (480 iLv) and I thoroughly enjoy LFR. I'd probably not get to see the content otherwise. I have just recently found a solid guild to call home, and I did my first normal MSV (4/6) as of yesterday. But who knows if I'm asked to come along again to the normal raid(s). I am also doing dailies, and you know something, they are pretty fun. I am really enjoying the Golden Lotus grind. Get some quests done, along with some wpvp all at the same time. That lake is a hotbed, I tell you. I've had a blast so far this expansion. Since I don't have the kind of gold to purchase craftable BOE's, it's pretty much dailies and LFR for me. I am not trying to be in the 1%, so this is really all I need. The game is what you make it, and fortunately for me I've found my own little niche that I'm happy with. Six years and counting, and I still look forward to logging in every day.

[frogger237]

Theres no way they could ever go back to vanilla stuff.

First off millions would quit.

Secondly the "hardcores" have always been special snowflakes who want stuff handed to them, which is why as soon as good addons started getting developed guilds required them and then wanted more and easier ones.

If the game went back to a vanilla style those same "hardcores" would quit because almost everyone that's still playing would be seeing the content and they would complain that the encounters suck because after 150 bosses your going to have a hard time thinking up new mechanics that aren't a combination of some of the other ones that already exist.

I used to be a "hardcore" in vanilla and TBC then I actually learned how to play the game instead of having the game play me, and imo its a hundred times better now than it used to be.

[Wildtree]

While such a model is indeed quite attractive on the surface, it basically boils down to "get gold and buy items" philosophy for the non-crafters. This would lead to a significant increase in botting and gold buying, something we could frankly do without

I thought of that too yes, and your point is valid. Plus I guess gold sellers will always be a part of the game one way or another..
In that regard it's up to blizzard to sophisticate the way trial versions are used. Read out some parts of a pc's unique signature, and not the IP. IP can be changed in a snap. Signature not so easy. If you put up a warning that there will be such action, then it isn't illegal to read such.. Should solve most of the spammer problems.

Plus. I expect with such model the gathering materials become more valuable too. Hence mining and herbs picking are also attractive.
Bots... yeah... Those are a problem, and need to be fought just more efficiently. Blizz can change codes on the fly nowadays. Slight modifications more frequently, may possibly counter that problem a bit easier. I dunno...

[Deleted]

not for whom, but why.
Why do you ask? because of quality, beacuse 5 millions is still huge number. I jsut mean game could be better even with fewer ppl playing, I have nothing agains casuals.

No, I asked you better for whom. That is the question.

[crakerjack]

People are just now realizing why the game is failing? It started with PvP... bad players complained about the rating system because they were tired of being bad and having to face the conclusion that you cannot have a negative win/loss and get all the amazing gear that good PvPers got. Instead of learning their class better like the rest of us who worked hard at it... they constantly bitch to blizzard about how they need to remove rating requirement on PvP gear... For some stupid ass reason, blizzard decides to go ahead on it and allow everyone to have the same gear (aside from 1 weapon at 2.2k). You want to know the what happened after this? Those crap players didn't get any better... I was still strutting around BG's killing all the wannabe PvPers, but instead of walking away with around 80% health, I had 40%... When will bad players realized that gear doesn't mean anything if you don't have the skill to go along with it. Sure some people got carried, but those types are even more fun to watch because they're geared, but still lose because they lack the skill... Which is the leading reason for why I quit... bad players ruining the game... whether it be due to them not having enough time to play, or them just being lazy and not wanting to read upon how to properly play the game.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't mind having attunements back :3