Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Deleted]

It's not genocide Tosh. >_>

The deliberate killing of a large group of people. especially those of a particular group.

Id say it was pretty deliberate, she went in to dalaran intending to kill Blood Elves. Blood Elves are a group. The group was large.

[Aquamonkey]

Let me get this straight. I'm talking to the three people here named Kangodo, Jediguy and Aquamonkey. Are you telling to all the rest that The Horde with the Sunreavers are completely innocent and Jaina is the big bad villain here? Do you think the Kirin Tor put her in leading position just to help the Alliance own the Horde?

The Horde are not innocent. While not everyone in the Horde agrees with Garrosh, those that disprove haven't really taken any action against him, with the exception of Aethas (who convinced the Kirin Tor to stand against Garrosh at Theramore). That makes those people complicit for now. We already know that they will eventually make a move against him.

The Sunreaver people are 100% innocent. Their only tie to the Horde is that their father nation is allied with it. The Sunreavers have been in Dalaran since it was rebuilt and moved to Northrend. During this time, Theron and Rommath had considered Aethas to be separate from the Blood Elves due to his position on the Council of Six. This was well before the Horde used their diplomatic connection with the Blood Elves to gain sanctuary in WotLK.

Jaina protecting the Bell at Darnasus was fine. She did it for everyone, Horde and Alliance alike, but it definitely has the appearance of favoritism. It would have been better to move it to the Kirin Tor vault, but politics and dealing with sovereign nations...

Her turning on Aethas was tragic. Aethas had been a Council member for years and had helped rebuild the ruined city after the Third War. He had also supported her in the committing Kirin Tor forces to defending Theramore. He voted for and officiated her appointment as leader of the Kirin Tor. It's just another example of how unstable she is. She nearly killed a defenseless Thrall in her fit of rage after Theramore.

[Soulshaper]

Finally we can kick the filthy sunreavers out of dalaran ;> now we just have to get rid of garrosh

[Deleted]

It tells us that the Sunreavers did not “use Dalaran” to help the Horde, contrary to your claims.



Which throws into question the claim that Jaina set up anti-teleportation barriers around Darnassus; or, at the very least, effective ones.



Jaina teleporting to Darnassus to help the Alliance against the Horde is okay.
Sunreavers teleporting outside of Darnassus to help the Horde against the Alliance is not okay.

See the double standard yet? No one “uses Dalaran,” both teleport/use portals, both are part of a “neutral” faction, and both help one side of a conflict against the other. Yet Jaina thinks it’s okay for her to engage in the conflict but not the Sunreavers. In fact, she’s so vehement about people behaving as she does that she immediately kills and imprisons anyone who dares think they can engage in the Horde/Alliance conflict as she did. She’s brazenly out of line.

It's a fact that they used Dalaran to help the Horde. There is no double standard. Jaina didn't abuse Dalaran to help the Alliance.

[DFu4ever]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMdPujdcPTg

How did they use Dalaran again? You never step foot on Dalaran and the Bell never goes to Dalaran (it goes to Silvermoon initially). As Jaina is the leader of the supposedly neutral Kirin Tor, she shouldn't be setting up anyone's defenses against one faction or another. The fact that a Sunreaver had to be involved in the operation so they could counter a Kirin Tor defense is the entire problem with the Alliance argument. Jaina shouldn't have been involved from the get go, and as leader of the Kirin Tor she doesn't just get to turn off her allegiance whenever she wants to directly help the Alliance.

It's a hilariously obvious double standard.

EDIT: As it stands, the Kirin Tor took advantage of the fact that their leader is currently extremely unstable and used a really flimsy argument to justify purging their rival. They just ignore the fact that their leader had already broken the neutrality. Hell, it's arguable the Kirin Tor had already broken neutrality by assisting in the defense of Theramore, so losing their shit over a couple Sunreavers helping to counter their shady dealing with the Alliance is laughable at best.

And why, if Jaina can turn her neutrality on and off without consequence, can a Sunreaver not do the same?

[Yriel]

Well, the magical wards were hers and she was the one dealing with the ones that tried to teleport there.

So what ? And Fanlyr made a portal from Domination Point to Darnassus by himself. But somehow he apparently used Dalaran knowledge or Dalaran magic or whatever and who says Jaina didn't so herself ?

[Drilnos]

It should be mentioned that Fanlyr, the spy who actually did, you know, move the bell, had previously fallen afoul of Garrosh's temper by talking him down from killing a high-ranking Mogu prisoner. Garrosh told him afterward, and I'm paraphrasing here, "disrespect me again and I'll hoist your severed head over the gates of Orgrimmar." Fanlyr was, from that point on, in Garrosh's pocket. He would have been contacted directly by Garrosh and his Kor'kron to take part in the bell heist, not through his own organization, the Sunreavers, the leader of which showed no intentions of being anything other than a rock of neutrality (he was actually quite forceful on this point to Lor'themar) until, of course, Jaina stabbed him directly between the shoulderblades.

[Deleted]

So what ? And Fanlyr made a portal from Domination Point to Darnassus by himself. But somehow he apparently used Dalaran knowledge or Dalaran magic or whatever and who says Jaina didn't so herself ?

Why would Jaina need? She teleport wherever she wants, like any mage. And she was the one that was catching the ones triggering her wards. She didn't need to teleport in some other way.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 04:36 PM ----------

How did they use Dalaran again? You never step foot on Dalaran and the Bell never goes to Dalaran (it goes to Silvermoon initially).

Again, Jaina's words. Darnassus was on a complete lockdown and only by using Dalaran portal system, which are connected through leylines (doesn't matter where on Azeroth one is), the Horde managed to get in Darnassus.

[Jediguy]

It's a fact that they used Dalaran to help the Horde. There is no double standard. Jaina didn't abuse Dalaran to help the Alliance.

No it's not, it's your baseless assertion with no in-game support whatsoever. You have failed to explain how the Sunreavers "used" Dalaran in any way that Jaina did not. You failed to support your assertion that a Blood Elf (known for their knowledge of magic) member of the Kirin Tor (also known for their knowledge of magic) could not teleport/portal anywhere other than a city of their own faction and thus needed to use Dalaran's already existing portal to Darnassus. Not only is the portal used by the Sunreaver different than the standard portal from Dalaran to Darnassus, being outside the city, but there is nothing whatsoever on which to base your claim that a member of the most knowledgeable mages in Azeroth couldn't figure out how to teleport/portal in any place other than a faction-specific city.

Until you can support these baseless assertions, your claim that the Sunreavers "used Dalaran" in a way that Jaina did not are completely hollow, an echo only of your zeal for the Alliance.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 01:09 PM ----------

All we got is Jaina's words. Nothing else. So, until proven wrong, Jaina's words are the fact. Everything else is assumption.

And Garrosh says that the Alliance must be at its end if they're sending their children against him (referencing Anduin trying to stop him from using the Divine Bell). Therefore, based on your logic, the Alliance is at the end of its rope. Hey, Garrosh said so!

Spare me. Jaina's assessment of the situation is clearly bias with her hatred for the Horde and you want to claim her word as truth? Sorry, but you're going to need more than that. Until Jaina can back up her accusation against the Sunreavers in a way that does not likewise condemn her own meddling in the conflict between the Horde and Alliance, the claim remains hollow - unless, of course, you want to also insist that Garrosh's description of the Alliance's crumbling status is accurate.

Further still, upon discovering the Sunreavers were involved in taking the Bell, she never says they "used Dalaran." Those are your words; not Jaina's. Here is the quest dialogue as she tracks those who took the bell in the Alliance quest "Tracking the Thieves:"

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Come with me.

Blue balls lead from the entrance of the tree south away from the Cenarion Enclave.

On reaching the central island with the bank tree:

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: I had darnassus LOCKED DOWN! Every fumbling rogue that tried to sneak into the city, I CAUGHT them! I snatched every two-bit charlatan that attempted to teleport through my traps!

The path turns east, passing south of the Warrior's Terrace.

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: They couldn't possibly have gotten through... this was an inside job. Somebody inside the city has the bell, unless... no...

The trail keeps leading east out of Darnassus proper past the main gate, then turns south around the side of a tree to reveal a portal to Dalaran!

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: These portals connect to Dalaran. That means the Kirin Tor... MY OWN Kirin Tor... helped the Horde commit this atrocity.

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: I will not be betrayed again! Those responsible for this will be punished!

(End of dialogue)

Do you not see? She's pissed that she was beaten at her own game; that someone in the Kirin Tor countered her efforts. She's not upset that someone "used Dalaran," but that some of the Kirin Tor acted against her as she helped the Alliance against the Horde. Contrary to your claims, she says nothing about the Horde using the standard Dalaran-to-Darnassus portals to carry out their operation; that is a fabrication of your own design. The Sunreavers specifically made their own portals to Dalaran outside the city.

Further still, portals seem to be a one-way ticket in the world of Azeroth. Once you take a portal, you can't hop back through unless you open another portal to the location from which you came. Darnassus has never had portals leading to Dalaran, which means the Sunreavers here must have made completely new portals that did not previously exist in Darnassus: proof that they are not using already existing infrastructure linking Darnassus and Dalaran.

All that I'm trying to say is that Jaina did not used Dalaran and the Sunreavers did.

And yet no one can provide any evidence or proof showing how the Sunreavers "used Dalaran" in a way Jaina did not. Keep yelling it until you're blue in the face - it's not going to make it any less false.

[Deleted]

And yet no one can provide any evidence or proof showing how the Sunreavers "used Dalaran" in a way Jaina did not. Keep yelling it until you're blue in the face - it's not going to make it any less false.

I already pointed out, several times, Jaina's words. If you choose to deny it, it's not my problem.

And since you will continue to ignore it, I'm done with this issue. 5.2 will have the answers for it.

[Trassk]

I already pointed out, several times, Jaina's words. If you choose to deny it, it's not my problem.

And since you will continue to ignore it, I'm done with this issue. 5.2 will have the answers for it.

Sounds more like your the one ignoring the facts here.

[Deleted]

No it's not, it's your baseless assertion with no in-game support whatsoever. You have failed to explain how the Sunreavers "used" Dalaran in any way that Jaina did not. You failed to support your assertion that a Blood Elf (known for their knowledge of magic) member of the Kirin Tor (also known for their knowledge of magic) could not teleport/portal anywhere other than a city of their own faction and thus needed to use Dalaran's already existing portal to Darnassus. Not only is the portal used by the Sunreaver different than the standard portal from Dalaran to Darnassus, being outside the city, but there is nothing whatsoever on which to base your claim that a member of the most knowledgeable mages in Azeroth couldn't figure out how to teleport/portal in any place other than a faction-specific city.

Until you can support these baseless assertions, your claim that the Sunreavers "used Dalaran" in a way that Jaina did not are completely hollow, an echo only of your zeal for the Alliance.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 01:09 PM ----------



And Garrosh says that the Alliance must be at its end if they're sending their children against him (referencing Anduin trying to stop him from using the Divine Bell). Therefore, based on your logic, the Alliance is at the end of its rope. Hey, Garrosh said so!

Spare me. Jaina's assessment of the situation is clearly bias with her hatred for the Horde and you want to claim her word as truth? Sorry, but you're going to need more than that. Until Jaina can back up her accusation against the Sunreavers in a way that does not likewise condemn her own meddling in the conflict between the Horde and Alliance, the claim remains hollow - unless, of course, you want to also insist that Garrosh's description of the Alliance's crumbling status is accurate.

Further still, upon discovering the Sunreavers were involved in taking the Bell, she never says they "used Dalaran." Those are your words; not Jaina's. Here is the quest dialogue as she tracks those who took the bell in the Alliance quest "Tracking the Thieves:"

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Come with me.

Blue balls lead from the entrance of the tree south away from the Cenarion Enclave.

On reaching the central island with the bank tree:

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: I had darnassus LOCKED DOWN! Every fumbling rogue that tried to sneak into the city, I CAUGHT them! I snatched every two-bit charlatan that attempted to teleport through my traps!

The path turns east, passing south of the Warrior's Terrace.

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: They couldn't possibly have gotten through... this was an inside job. Somebody inside the city has the bell, unless... no...

The trail keeps leading east out of Darnassus proper past the main gate, then turns south around the side of a tree to reveal a portal to Dalaran!

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: These portals connect to Dalaran. That means the Kirin Tor... MY OWN Kirin Tor... helped the Horde commit this atrocity.

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: I will not be betrayed again! Those responsible for this will be punished!

(End of dialogue)

Do you not see? She's pissed that she was beaten at her own game; that someone in the Kirin Tor countered her efforts. She's not upset that someone "used Dalaran," but that some of the Kirin Tor acted against her as she helped the Alliance against the Horde. Contrary to your claims, she says nothing about the Horde using the standard Dalaran-to-Darnassus portals to carry out their operation; that is a fabrication of your own design. The Sunreavers specifically made their own portals to Dalaran outside the city.

Further still, portals seem to be a one-way ticket in the world of Azeroth. Once you take a portal, you can't hop back through unless you open another portal to the location from which you came. Darnassus has never had portals leading to Dalaran, which means the Sunreavers here must have made completely new portals that did not previously exist in Darnassus: proof that they are not using already existing infrastructure linking Darnassus and Dalaran.



And yet no one can provide any evidence or proof showing how the Sunreavers "used Dalaran" in a way Jaina did not. Keep yelling it until you're blue in the face - it's not going to make it any less false.

You even quote the part where Jaina says the portals connect to Dalaran.

[Deleted]

Sounds more like your the one ignoring the facts here.

The in-game words of Jaina Proudmoore telling that the portals are connected to Dalaran? Nope.

The problem here is people can't seem to separate the issues, mixing up with "double standards" or whatever. That was never my point. I work with facts and fact is lorewise is stated that the Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran and its portals. Everything else I'll wait until 5.2.

Of course, this will be ignored again, but I'm off of this circular debate.

[Trassk]

The in-game words of Jaina Proudmoore telling that the portals are connected to Dalaran? Nope.

The problem here is people can't seem to separate the issues, mixing up with "double standards" or whatever. That was never my point. I work with facts and fact is lorewise is stated that the Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran and its portals. Everything else I'll wait until 5.2.

Of course, this will be ignored again, but I'm off of this circular debate.

I doubt your off it. As for what you purposely ignored, you haven't taken on board anything Jediguy said. Jaina found a portal to dalaran in darnassus, one created by a rogue sunreaver. A rogue sunreaver created a portal for the bell to be taken though, and yet instead of using rational means, because some rogue mage working for Garrosh got past her traps (she admits she sets up traps), she hold ALL the sunreavers accountable for it.

She was meant to be the leader of the kirin tor, and responsible for all, silver convent, sunreavers and the kirin tor, yet she singles out a whole group instead of using her oh so powerful magic to find the one responsible for it.


Oh, and to throw this into the mix. The Alliance had taken into there possession a powerful magical artifact, at the time when the war between horde and alliance were at an all time high. Why should the horde be content with allowing the alliance to get ahold of such a powerful artifact if the alliance were to use it against them? Are the horde to know if they will or won't use it as a weapon? of course not, so the same logic is used to take the bell from the alliance.

And since Jaina is the one who took part in securing the bell, someone who is meant to have been a neutral figure in this, she already overstepped her new found neutral standing in helping the alliance with the bell and having them keep hold of it.

She claims being neutral yet helps one side with an extremely powerful peice of magic. Well if I were speaking as a horde member (instead of someone seeing both sides on a forum), I'd not want to believe her bs about neutrality either, or take that chance.

And yet, she blames the entire sunreavers for the actions committed by a few. That is the same as holding an entire school accountable for one student stealing a car from another school, its ridiculous

[Deleted]

I doubt your off it. As for what you purposely ignored, you haven't taken on board anything Jediguy said. Jaina found a portal to dalaran in darnassus, one created by a rogue sunreaver. A rogue sunreaver created a portal for the bell to be taken though, and yet instead of using rational means, because some rogue mage working for Garrosh got past her traps (she admits she sets up traps), she hold ALL the sunreavers accountable for it.

Just answering to this because is obvious that I'm being misunderstood. I DON'T care about what is happening on the event, I already said it several times. I'm simply pointing out that, by in-game monologue/dialogue, that the Dalaran portals ARE used by the Sunreaver(s).

It's really so hard to figure out that I'm simply talking about this and nothing else?

[Darth-Piekus]

As I told you Tauror it's pointless to discuss with players who simply ignore every clue even if you put it in their face and on the contrary produce clues out of their imagination.

It's simple. Be patient. The same thing happened with older threads either regarding Sylvannas or the Horde or Garrosh. All those fangirls of Garrosh got their answers and they dissapeared after that. Let them believe that the Sunreavers are innocent. The Patch 5.2 will finally crumble their dream world and get them back to reality. It will simply confirm that the Sunreavers are not as innocent as they believe. I am just waiting. I will be here. I hope they won't dissapear like some others in other threads.

[Verdugo]

I am just waiting. I will be here. I hope they won't dissapear like some others in other threads.

I hope you will dissappear. And I dont care if you are right.

I have never seen anyone ignore the statements against your opinions for so long as you.

[Darth-Piekus]

See what I mean? I rest my case.

[Verdugo]

See what I mean? I rest my case.

See what I mean? I rest my case.

You never respond, never add to conversation. Just crash in, call everyone who has different opinion fangirl, try to pitty those that you think agree with you and post same, differently worded bullshit few hours later.

[Darth-Piekus]

Sorry but this is not a conversation. It's a cycle between the majority here and 3 or 4 players who are arguing just for the sake of it. So no. I won't add anything else to something that is not a conversation.

Already tried in the past but not anymore. I'll just wait for the patch to show the obvious and back on mmo champion to see reactions of those 3 arguers who finally will be put in their place.

And no I never got a warning.