Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Deleted]

Except that Garithos was the highest ranking member of the Alliance left. That makes him the voice of the Alliance. He was also a baron, giving the right of succession in the Kingdom of Lordaeron. Tell me again how he didn't speak for the Alliance?

He wasn't the true voice of the Alliance. He was a racist.

[Aquamonkey]

What exactly where they doing with these slaves, besides having them rot in camps? The orcs were doing absolutely nothing.

You're the one arguing against canon. The Orcs were slaves.

"Thrall worked to ensure that no orc would be cast into slavery – either by humans or demons – ever again." -WC3 Manual

[Sandrox]

You're the one arguing against canon. The Orcs were slaves.

"Thrall worked to ensure that no orc would be cast into slavery – either by humans or demons – ever again." -WC3 Manual

Thrall also says that the prison camps held orcs that have 'done no wrong' in the Lord of the Clans book. Im sure thats also true, they never destroyed an entire human kingdom, or committed mass genocide!

Thrall was a slave, the rest of the orcs were not. They were prisoners.

[Deleted]

Putting the orcs in internment camps was more moral than killing them.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

He wasn't the true voice of the Alliance. He was a racist.

It doesn't matter if he was a racist, he still led the Alliance because he was the highest ranking member.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Aquamonkey]

Thrall also says that the prison camps held orcs that have 'done no wrong' in the Lord of the Clans book. Im sure thats also true, they never destroyed an entire human kingdom, or committed mass genocide!

Thrall was a slave, the rest of the orcs were not. They were prisoners.

I gave you a direct quote that the orcs were enslaved. You still insist on twisting the lore. Slavery is slavery and it is inexcusable.

[Sandrox]

It doesn't matter if he was a racist, he still led the Alliance because he was the highest ranking member.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

That alliance does not exist anymore, how is this hard to understand?

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:09 PM ----------

I gave you a direct quote that the orcs were enslaved. You still insist on twisting the lore. Slavery is slavery and it is inexcusable.

From the viewpoint of someone who didnt witness the first or second war, was a member of those being imprisoned, and himself WAS a slave. Its hardly an unbiased viewpoint.

[Deleted]

It doesn't matter if he was a racist, he still led the Alliance because he was the highest ranking member.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Is Varian a racist? Is Jaina a racist?

Varian started out wanting to kill all the orcs, but now he wants to find a peaceful solution.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

That alliance does not exist anymore, how is this hard to understand?

It's not. We aren't talking about the current Alliance, we're talking about the past Alliance.

[Aquamonkey]

Tell me again how the Alliance of Lordaeron, which doesnt exist anymore, is in any way relevant to the current Allaince?

Because both contain many of the same kingdoms?

He wasn't the true voice of the Alliance. He was a racist.

I like your logic that the leader isn't the true voice of the organization he is leading. Who else would be the true voice? You just don't like that the true voice of the Alliance was a racist.

[Sandrox]

Because both contain many of the same kingdoms?

By that logic, the Old Horde is the same thing as the new Horde.

[Deleted]

I like your logic that the leader isn't the true voice of the organization he is leading. Who else would be the true voice? You just don't like that the true voice of the Alliance was a racist.

If you remember correctly King Terenas had been killed. He spared the orcs by putting them in internment camps instead of killing them.

Garithos just happened to be leading what was left, but he wasn't the true voice of the Alliance.

[Aquamonkey]

From the viewpoint of someone who didnt witness the first or second war, was a member of those being imprisoned, and himself WAS a slave. Its hardly an unbiased viewpoint.

So you are arguing that there wasn't slavery because someone who was a slave says there was slavery?

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 07:15 PM ----------

By that logic, the Old Horde is the same thing as the new Horde.

I didn't say they were the same.

"Tell me again how the Alliance of Lordaeron, which doesnt exist anymore, is in any way relevant to the current Allaince?"

I was saying that it is relevant.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 07:17 PM ----------

If you remember correctly King Terenas had been killed. He spared the orcs by putting them in internment camps instead of killing them.

Garithos just happened to be leading what was left, but he wasn't the true voice of the Alliance.

So then Arthas on his genocidal rampage is the true voice of the Alliance because he was the direct heir to Terenas.

Also, I think you mean Terenas sent them to slave camps.

[Sandrox]

So you are arguing that there wasn't slavery because someone who was a slave says there was slavery?

Im arguing that he was in no position to call it slavery, because it wasnt. The orcs in camps werent forced to do labor, and werent bought and sold which is the very definition of slavery. "Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work." All the orcs did in the camp was exist.

They were kept in camps to protect the Alliance because they didnt know what else to do with them besides killing them all.

[Deleted]

So then Arthas on his genocidal rampage is the true voice of the Alliance because he was the direct heir to Terenas.

Lol. Arthas wiped out the Alliance.

Compare Garithos to Varian. Varian is not a racist and wants peace.

[Aquamonkey]

Im arguing that he was in no position to call it slavery, because it wasnt. The orcs in camps werent forced to do labor, and werent bought and sold which is the very definition of slavery. "Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work." All the orcs did in the camp was exist.

They were kept in camps to protect the Alliance because they didnt know what else to do with them besides killing them all.

"From the viewpoint of someone who didnt witness the first or second war, was a member of those being imprisoned, and himself WAS a slave. Its hardly an unbiased viewpoint."

How can you say Thrall was a slave and deny the existence of slavery in the same breath?

[Sandrox]

"From the viewpoint of someone who didnt witness the first or second war, was a member of those being imprisoned, and himself WAS a slave. Its hardly an unbiased viewpoint."

How can you say Thrall was a slave and deny the existence of slavery in the same breath?

Because he was the ONLY ONE. For the rest of the orcs, they were not slaves.

[Deleted]

Yes it does. You just don't see them in the game.

Are you drunk? It is said everywhere in the lore that High Elves are almost extinct. Again, stop pulling lies out of your arse.
http://www.wowpedia.org/High_elves#Population

So after Silvermoon was wiped out by the undead, the Blood Elves decide to join forces with the undead. Lorelol. Oh wait I mean it was wiped out by Arthas. Big big difference right? Especially as Sylvanas is now raising people from the dead as loyal slaves herself. But let's side with her.

Scourge != Forsaken. Don't be dishonest. And it was Sylvanas who proposed to help the Blood Elves, it wasn't them who asked for their help.
And why are you using something done by Sylvanas in the current time ir order to attack a decision made 5 years ago? Stop distorting lore and arguments in your own benefit, that's intellectually dishonest.

The Alliance wasn't at war with the Blood Elves.

That's right, but it wasn't allied either. It was a perfect chance to bring them back into the Alliance, and instead they just ignored and cheated them. Again. Fucking brilliant.

Garithos did not speak for the Alliance really. He did but he wasn't the true voice of the Alliance, and everyone knew it. If Jaina had been in command of the remnants of the Alliance in the eastern kingdoms do you really think she would have sent the Blood Elves on a suicide mission?

It's pretty clear by now you have no idea what you're talking about.
Garithos was the Grand Marshal of the Alliance of Lordaeron, and there was no King, or any Royal Familly, so Garithos was de facto and de jure in charge of the Alliance. How can you say "everyone knew" he wasn't the voice of the Alliance, is there any proper source, or are you again just making things up? (rhetorical question)
Jaina was on the other side of the Ocean, cut off from Lordaeron. It doesn't matter what she'd do, she wasn't present. Even if she were, she wouldn't be in charge, so it's irrelevant.

Everyone spies on everyone. That's a weak excuse. The Forsaken literally invaded Gilneas. Sylvanas used the plague on the city.

It's not a weak excuse, the Alliance was pretty stupid because they could regain a friend, and instead ditched the opportunity they had.
I'm not talking about Gilneas, no idea why you're bringing that up.

The Alliance didn't invade Silvermoon.

Neither did the Horde. The difference is that a part of the Horde (Forsaken) lended their help, while the Alliance decided to "lend" spies.
What's your point?

[Aquamonkey]

Lol. Arthas wiped out the Alliance.

Compare Garithos to Varian. Varian is not a racist and wants peace.

I'm all for calling Garithos an anomaly and that most Humans don't share his views. The fact remains he was the leader, therefore he speaks for the Alliance. He was a racist that abused the Blood Elves AS THE LEADER. His underlings did nothing to stop this persecution. The Kirin Tor were complicit when Garithos imprisoned the Blood Elves in Dalaran.

It's the same thing with Garrosh. He is the leader. He speaks for the Horde as an organization. His opinions don't reflect everyone in the Horde, but so far, nobody has done anything to stop him (except Aethas, Theron, Baine, and Vol'jin).

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 07:32 PM ----------

Because he was the ONLY ONE. For the rest of the orcs, they were not slaves.

Slave => slavery. Period. "Thrall worked to ensure that no orc would be cast into slavery – either by humans or demons – ever again." -WC3 Manual.

It would seem that if he is the only slave in the whole of Azeroth, his job would be done as soon as he freed himself. Why would he have to work to ensure that no other orc would be enslaved by humans if there were no other orc slaves?

[Deleted]

If she had thrown them out earlier what would that change? Nothing, sooner or later another ambitious mage will betray the Kirin Tor it is only a matter of time.



History shows that magi are a secretive sometimes backstabbing bunch, what makes you believe that this changed.

You just said that it was hardly surprising the Sunreavers betrayed them. I'm not arguing they throw them out based on nothing at all. I was just trying to draw the consequence from your claim. I think saying that magi are a secretive backstabbing bunch is a bit much. Have we seen any of that from the magi in the Alliance or the Horde? Except the Sunreavers.