Winning against undergeared people is not rewarding

[Nicola]

I forgot to mention fully upgraded T2 weapons are a gigantic advantage that undeserving players basically cheated to get. Basically everything kosechi said at the top of page 7. PVP is dying. Less and less people are bothering with it because of how much of a joke it is right now.

That's only in the case of melee, casters scale a lot worse with weapons and for healers it doesn't even matter that much if they use a pvp weapon or not.
More specifically, it's a warrior problem due their insane scaling with gear and weapons. But hey, guess what, at higher ratings where people are equally geared, people get stomped by warriors as well.
Maybe it's just problem with warriors? Maybe it's just their class being very overpowered, with the gaps in low end and high end gear making it even worse? But for classes that don't have such a ridiculous scaling, gear is fine, deal with it.

[Talen]

So what do you suggest people who play less get better/same rewards as people who invest time into it? That's not very fair.

I personally think its a simple question.

Do you want PvP to be a viable part of the game?

Yes? Or No?

If the answer is yes, then you have to realise that PvP is NOT PvE. Different standards apply because your opponent will also be a player. There has to be rules, there has to be standards.

The idea of "time spent in game gives you an advantage" is a highly corrosive one as far as PvP is concerned. If you want PvP, then it has to be PvP...not gear vs gear. PVP needs to pit you against another player, and not a suit of armor.

Players who spend more time in game, who spend more time in PvP SHOULD get better rewards. That reward simply shouldn't be gear or weaponry. Transmog gear? Titles? Mounts? Battle Pets? Vanity items? Yes. Items which affect your ability to take part in PvP? No.

The gear grind has no place at all in PvP. And it is a very large reason why PvP is so unbalanced. Gear simply has too much impact on PvP performance.

EJL

[dacoolist]

I personally think its a simple question.

Do you want PvP to be a viable part of the game?

Yes? Or No?

If the answer is yes, then you have to realise that PvP is NOT PvE. Different standards apply because your opponent will also be a player. There has to be rules, there has to be standards.

The idea of "time spent in game gives you an advantage" is a highly corrosive one as far as PvP is concerned. If you want PvP, then it has to be PvP...not gear vs gear. PVP needs to pit you against another player, and not a suit of armor.

Players who spend more time in game, who spend more time in PvP SHOULD get better rewards. That reward simply shouldn't be gear or weaponry. Transmog gear? Titles? Mounts? Battle Pets? Vanity items? Yes. Items which affect your ability to take part in PvP? No.

The gear grind has no place at all in PvP. And it is a very large reason why PvP is so unbalanced. Gear simply has too much impact on PvP performance.

EJL

I just believe Gear, and Skill need to come into play ALONG WITH your CLASS. Being one sided like GW2 (skill based ONLY with Class balanced?), and with Wow's concept where Gear REALLY DOES affect outcome a lot of the time: I believe their can be a better balance.

#1 the issue here should be looked at more about Resil than anything else.. This whole Resil thing is getting out of hand

[Dcruize]

Apart from the T2 weapon, is the difference in gear really that noticeable from honor to conquest? I play two rogues, one in full malevolent and one in honor gear with1 mal and 2xminiature tree daggers. Maybe it's just the class, but it seems to make no difference which rogue I play - I can beat the same players in duels and I get smashed by the same people as well. Not surprising cause there's only 4% resilience difference between them despite having played one from the first week of the season and the other from the week after Christmas.

I did a 2s game this week as rogue/rshaman vs war/hpala. After 8mins I'd got the pala's mana down to 98% and my shaman was oom. Class > skill > gear.

[crakerjack]

They need to put the rating system back in... i'm tired of seeing noobs running around in gear that don't deserve... In PvE, you don't get gear for getting the boss to 20% and wiping, you get loot for killing him, so why isn't it the same for PvP? Why do people who fail deserve gear? They don't... if you can't get the rating requirement, then try harder and learn the game better. But nope, blizzard sympathizes for all the noobs who click/keyboard turn and don't know ANYTHING about the game other than their simple 5 button rotation that they learned from PvE... they don't utilize half their abilities, because they never have to use them in PvE. It wasn't even crazy either for gear... Gloves were 1550, chest is 1600, legs are 1700, weapons are 1800, helm is 1900 and shoulders are 2k and t2 weapons are 2200... it's not hard... why should gear be handed out to any person trying PvP? It's stupid.

And no one can make the argument, "Even gear makes for an even playing field." that's bullshit because I'm still rocking noobs... they still click and keyboard turn, gear didn't help them there... they're still spamming the same abilities that they would in PvE... they're still popping all their defensive abilities at once because that's what they do in PvE... they're still popping every offensive CD before attacking with zerker. Noobs will be noobs and if they choose to complain about the game being too hard and not being able to get the same gear as other PvPers, rather than learn their class and every other class like real PvPers do... then Idk to say to those kind of people.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 09:35 AM ----------

Apart from the T2 weapon, is the difference in gear really that noticeable from honor to conquest? I play two rogues, one in full malevolent and one in honor gear with1 mal and 2xminiature tree daggers. Maybe it's just the class, but it seems to make no difference which rogue I play - I can beat the same players in duels and I get smashed by the same people as well. Not surprising cause there's only 4% resilience difference between them despite having played one from the first week of the season and the other from the week after Christmas.

I did a 2s game this week as rogue/rshaman vs war/hpala. After 8mins I'd got the pala's mana down to 98% and my shaman was oom. Class > skill > gear.

See, that's your issue... resto shamans can't play the same as paladins... your gameplan isn't to oom the paladin, it's about coordination and timely CC... propper LoS and the kill is right there... you're trying to play rugby with a bunch of alligators, ain't gunna workout for you.

[zenga]

Either way, it has nothing to do with the "unfair catch up problem." Others have invested more time, so should have better gear. This is how RPG's and WoW has always been, and this is how Arena has always been since BC.

To a certain extend the ones who put in more effort (and thus have a gear advantage) should have an advantage in stats.
However in WoW: Kill = stats + skill (stats is your gear and spec strength, skill is obviously tactics, reaction speed, knowledge ...)
The whole discussion is how much stats should weight relative to skill in order to win. Currently the balance is way too much leaning towards stats. And that is a bad thing because people who obtained a lot of skill have also invested a lot of time in it. Your statement basically resets 'effort put into your toon' every season. While skill is a cross season thing.

[kosechi]

They need to put the rating system back in... i'm tired of seeing noobs running around in gear that don't deserve... In PvE, you don't get gear for getting the boss to 20% and wiping, you get loot for killing him, so why isn't it the same for PvP? Why do people who fail deserve gear? They don't... if you can't get the rating requirement, then try harder and learn the game better. But nope, blizzard sympathizes for all the noobs who click/keyboard turn and don't know ANYTHING about the game other than their simple 5 button rotation that they learned from PvE... they don't utilize half their abilities, because they never have to use them in PvE. It wasn't even crazy either for gear... Gloves were 1550, chest is 1600, legs are 1700, weapons are 1800, helm is 1900 and shoulders are 2k and t2 weapons are 2200... it's not hard... why should gear be handed out to any person trying PvP? It's stupid.

this would be a decent argument if THERE WASN'T RAMPANT WIN TRADING AND EXPLOITING IN RBGS. 1600 noobs would STILL be getting gear they don't deserve.

seriously has no one even LOOKED at the american ladders? its absolutely insane how much exploiting there is going on. ratings are peaking at 3.2k with the top players being people wearing GREENS. i have to do down EIGHT PAGES to find some one i don't think wintraded to their rating. i feel bad for anyone whos trying to legitimately get hero of the horde/alliance this season.

i don't mind there being no rating on T1 gear. in the past it made playing catchup on alts a lot easier because i could do low rated 2s with trade pugs to get my cap or trade in my valor points for conquest. but the scaling issues are HUGE this season which pretty much removes skill from the equation, and they refuse to crack down on people exploiting to get gear they don't deserve.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

mad?of course i'm mad. i'm losing games to cheaters and exploiters. i'm losing games because i'm not willing to sacrifice my self respect to wintrade rbgs to get T2.

you need to stop being absolute imbecile and take a good long look at the american ladders, hell i'm sure the exact same thing is going on on the EU ladders, and then tell me that that level of corruption is ok. i've seen win trades and carries before, but i've never seen it as bad as it is right now. i have to go back EIGHT PAGES on the rbgs ladders to find some one i'm fairly sure didn't wintrade and exploit to their rating.

that 1.6k team that beat us is at 1.7k right now with nearly 3 times the amount of games played as my 2k team. they are beating the 1.5k-2k teams who don't have T2 , but losing to teams they don't out gear.

i'm not the best player, not by a long shot, but i'm not bad either, and i've invested a lot of time and energy into getting better at pvp because the better i get at it the more i enjoy it, but i don't enjoy losing to cheaters.

Still, you are just assuming, because you think you know best. Hubris. Your problem is still with "pvp corruption" and you should start a discussion on that instead of changing the subject in this thread.

Gear is important, but it ridiculous to pretend like everyone else is cheating because you can't beat them. Its ridiculous to say there is no catching up, or that its unfair. You have just as much opportunity as the next guy. Blizzard does not raise others weekly caps, or lowers yours. Blizzard does not steal your gear and give it to others. Blizzard does not limit the amount of time or games you can play. Its 100% fair in this regard, and you can play just as often as they do if you so choose.

[kosechi]

Still, you are just assuming, because you think you know best. Hubris. Your problem is still with "pvp corruption" and you should start a discussion on that instead of changing the subject in this thread.

Gear is important, but it ridiculous to pretend like everyone else is cheating because you can't beat them. Its ridiculous to say there is no catching up, or that its unfair. You have just as much opportunity as the next guy. Blizzard does not raise others weekly caps, or lowers yours. Blizzard does not steal your gear and give it to others. Blizzard does not limit the amount of time or games you can play. Its 100% fair in this regard, and you can play just as often as they do if you so choose.

you need to stop commenting because you have NO idea how gear progression works.

its not ridiculous to assume people are cheating when they've never been over 1.7k in their life before and suddenly have 3k in rbgs in a single night. i've seen multiple teams with this.

the issue isn't playing more or less then other people, the issue is arena cap vs rbg cap combined with rbg exploiting is completely screwing up gear progression in mid range arena. are you saying i'm not doing my due diligence to gear up because i'm not willing to wintrade and exploit in rbgs?

gear scaling is really really steep right now, its effectively taken skill out of the equation. as a more skilled player i should be able to, and have been able to in the past, be able to compensate for being less geared with superior skill. thats just not possible right now because of the way things are scaling, if you think otherwise you have NOT been doing any arena this season.

[Capers]

Apart from the T2 weapon, is the difference in gear really that noticeable from honor to conquest? I play two rogues, one in full malevolent and one in honor gear with1 mal and 2xminiature tree daggers. Maybe it's just the class, but it seems to make no difference which rogue I play - I can beat the same players in duels and I get smashed by the same people as well. Not surprising cause there's only 4% resilience difference between them despite having played one from the first week of the season and the other from the week after Christmas.

I did a 2s game this week as rogue/rshaman vs war/hpala. After 8mins I'd got the pala's mana down to 98% and my shaman was oom. Class > skill > gear.

Yes, the difference is extremely big. Reckful, arguably the best rogue in the world, could barely even kill a 1400 warrior. If a player who has competed at multiple WoW tournaments struggles killing someone in the 1400 bracket because of his gear, there is a problem. Talbadar, one of the best spriests in the world, did a sim with his second priest in crappy gear. His second priest did 50% of the damage his main priest did. So basically w/o gear, he was half of a player.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

you need to stop commenting because you have NO idea how gear progression works.

its not ridiculous to assume people are cheating when they've never been over 1.7k in their life before and suddenly have 3k in rbgs in a single night. i've seen multiple teams with this.

the issue isn't playing more or less then other people, the issue is arena cap vs rbg cap combined with rbg exploiting is completely screwing up gear progression in mid range arena. are you saying i'm not doing my due diligence to gear up because i'm not willing to wintrade and exploit in rbgs?

gear scaling is really really steep right now, its effectively taken skill out of the equation. as a more skilled player i should be able to, and have been able to in the past, be able to compensate for being less geared with superior skill. thats just not possible right now because of the way things are scaling, if you think otherwise you have NOT been doing any arena this season.

Lol again with the cheating. Stop whining and go make a thread about that please. It has nothing to do with this topic.

[Kraenen]

This reason alone is why I hate PvP in general.

When joining Battlegrounds/Arena your gear should be normalized. Wins should be based on tactics/skill and not gear. It's simple mathematics why the current system fails.

PvP should be something fun you want to do, not something you know you can't win at based on gear.

Why not extend this to PvE as well? It should be about tactics skill not gear. It's simple mathematics after all.

[Deleted]

Why not extend this to PvE as well? It should be about tactics skill not gear. It's simple mathematics after all.

Gear allows for people to progress at their own rate in PvE and this is reflected in rankings, you wouldn't expect to kill Sha of Fear HC in blues - just as you wouldn't expect to defeat a R1 team in pvp blues... The difference is; Sha of Fear HC isn't being buffed as you catch up on gear, that R1 team however is upgrading their already impossible to beat gear at a faster rate than you can catch up.
In previous seasons you could gear up to a limit and everyone could reach that limit with a little bit of effort, with an open ended gearing system there is no chance to catch up, that is the issue.

[kosechi]

Lol again with the cheating. Stop whining and go make a thread about that please. It has nothing to do with this topic.

go away kid. please stop commenting. you are only making yourself look like an idiot.

you don't understand how the cheating is relevant to the gear progression and how gear scaling is making it hard to compete on equal footing.

[Nicola]

Yes, the difference is extremely big. Reckful, arguably the best rogue in the world, could barely even kill a 1400 warrior. If a player who has competed at multiple WoW tournaments struggles killing someone in the 1400 bracket because of his gear, there is a problem. Talbadar, one of the best spriests in the world, did a sim with his second priest in crappy gear. His second priest did 50% of the damage his main priest did. So basically w/o gear, he was half of a player.

Terrible class with extremely bad gear against most overpowered class with decent gear... Yeah, even with gear he'd have a really hard time reaching a proper rating on his rogue.

Also, simcraft for pvp dps, I don't even...

But seriously, I'm getting annoying by these multi glads thinking they can faceroll to a high rating with close to none gear. Contenders gear is stupidly bad, it's not even worth being called PvP gear. Especially those who play with an underpowered class and blame all of it on their gear.

[Reith]

Why not extend this to PvE as well? It should be about tactics skill not gear. It's simple mathematics after all.

Boss mobs aren't players. There you go.

[Deleted]

gear progression is actually a good thing, cause it gives players something to work for, other than the enjoyment of winning
BUT
i think the amount of gear disparity has gotten to a point where the gear can't be outskilled/outclassed and it's bad for the game

so here is the reason why, which is the problem of pvp altogether, blizzards incapability to seperate pvp from pve
as you might know, the standard honor gear was 365, but they lowered it to 358, cause people were using it in pve and did not feel a need to do heroics.
a quick solution would be to revert the change and keep it upgradeable with honor(aka blue quality), thereby decreasing the gap by 7 lvl.

[ btw for those that say item upgrading is helping with the problem in gear diversity, you're wrong
those with low gear will feel forced to upgrade their low gear, in an effort to catch up, and thereby increasing the gap = having to pay twice for the same slot, once they can acquire the higher items ]

in the long run mechanics have to build in the game, that allow players to catch up faster midseason and with twinks. for example giving a buff to all characters on your account, once you cap your points, just like with valorpoints. Nobrainer to me

or here is a new concept that would work easily, without just handing stuff out for free
each week you don't fill your cap, a percentage of the left points(cap minus earned points this week), for example 50 %, would go into a pool of potential points that you can earn at any later point

for example: Player A plays his cap of 1800 every week
Player B is a twink and is only played after 4 weeks.
At the start of week #5: Player A has 7200 points(probably even more, if he raised his cap) + his normal cap of 1800, so at the end of the week he can have 9000 points
Player B decides to play at week # 5, has 0 points, but he has his normal cap of 1800 + 4x 900(Pool), so at the end of week 5 he could have 5400.
Player A would still have a serious advantage, rightly so, cause he worked for the gear, but it would not be that huge and actually encourage players to give their alts a serious try. Remember that Player B would still have to work for his gear, but he wouldn't just hit a brick wall like it is now.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

go away kid. please stop commenting. you are only making yourself look like an idiot.

you don't understand how the cheating is relevant to the gear progression and how gear scaling is making it hard to compete on equal footing.

I'm sorry, all you have really added to this thread is whining, name calling, condescension, and more QQ.

Again, if all you want to contribute is "QQ CHEATERS QQ" then make a new thread about it. Its not relevant, especially since you are the only one whining about it, "kid."

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 07:17 PM ----------

Boss mobs aren't players. There you go.

This does not disprove or worsen his point at all..

[Mirishka]

I have just read GhostCrawlers lastest posts about PVP and I have never bitched on GC before but I'm stunned a what he is basically saying;

The latest posts he pretty much said "We believe that people should have better gear if they have played longer". Now I'm all for the grind,we play an RPG and that's the point(even if it is the worst part about the game) but for PvP it can become utterly silly espically so when gear plays such a massive part and the structure is clearly Skill<Class<Gear. You can easily get beat on and lose games for the shear fact that the other team out gears you and I think this is a massive error which needs to be changed.

The new upgrade system isn't the problem, its the catching up you have to do when you have alts or missed half the season which is the downfall even more when you can only get a certain amount of points each week.Also it wouldnt matter as much if skill was the main factor of you winning. I have had countless duels/arena etc where I have lost due to 10k HP or so when the opponent has outgeared me, if we had the same gear I would of won due to the fact it was an even playing field not "he did XX% more damage than me and had XX% more HP to stop me killing him". Also being unable to kill a healer and having to wait in a arena for 25 mins both /wave /dancing because we couldn't do anything to each other.

Perhaps the high aboves or GC himself is making the $$ roll out of your bank by making you play longer, I just dont understand.

First off all, this isn't a GC conspiracy. I know that's the go-to kneejerk reaction, but that doesn't make it any less annoying or any less wrong.

Secondly, and most importantly, you have to look at the other side of the coin.

Why should a person who takes, say, 6 months off from the game be able to come back and be instantly competitive with someone who was actively PvPing their ass off all that while? I don't even PvP and I don't think that would be fair. What would be the point of playing regularly?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

First off all, this isn't a GC conspiracy. I know that's the go-to kneejerk reaction, but that doesn't make it any less annoying or any less wrong.

Secondly, and most importantly, you have to look at the other side of the coin.

Why should a person who takes, say, 6 months off from the game be able to come back and be instantly competitive with someone who was actively PvPing their ass off all that while? I don't even PvP and I don't think that would be fair. What would be the point of playing regularly?

My thoughts exactly. I feel like many of the complainers here aren't as dedicated, or don't spend as much time and are upset because they are being outgeared.

I bet if they were on the other side of this, as in, they were extremely dedicated, they would be very much against an EVEN EASIER WAY to catch up EVEN QUICKER.

Since BC, they have already made it easier to get PVP gear, taken team ratings off gear requirements... if these people like the "all gear is equalized" aspect of pvp, I do suggest trying out GW2 and seeing how much they really like it.