Funniest thing I have ever seen in my life (Piers Morgan-Alex Jones interview)

[Wildtree]

Its obviously not an all-or-nothing issue. Even without a single military defection I'd gamble armed citizens could defeat the united states military on the grounds of greatly outnumbering it. Even the greatest militaries in the last century haven't been able to defeat armed populations that greatly outnumber them--- just look at Vietnam.

Vietnam is a bad example...
The greatest military's in the last century did in fact oppress the populations of their corresponding countries.. There were only 2 comparable military forces, and both succeeded.... USSR, Nazi Germany. Both succeeded.
In both cases the military had a key role on getting the tyrants into power in the first place. And in both cases the population did have resistance, but on very small scale, since repression against families of the resistance members was carried out with brutal force.
You would keep fighting if they'd take your children, your grand parents, and execute them for no reason other than having you stop fighting?
Some will...... Most will surrender. it's better to live within a regime, than to die or have those you love die for you.

[Deleted]

Uh, this wasn't meant to be a gun or conspiracy debate... i'm not sure how it turned into that. This was a link to a video of a madman making a fool of himself.. nothing more.

any thread involving guns in anyway turns into a debate about guns. not really a debate, just flaming from both sides.

[Wildtree]

The military has too many soldiers with families in the US. The moment they start murdering civilians, they would likely defect and join the militia. I know people in the military and this has been a topic of debate.

Military..... Elitist beneficiaries through tyrannical regime times.
Ask again, how many of those who so easily say, "I will join the rebellion" would actually do just that, and give up their special treatment, and that for their families.

[Hiricine]

You would keep fighting if they'd take your children, your grand parents, and execute them for no reason other than having you stop fighting?
Some will...... Most will surrender. it's better to live within a regime, than to die or have those you love die for you.

If I was up against a regime that would execute innocent people in large numbers to stop a war, It'd be selfish not to sacrifice everything you had. Of course, being a coward, I'd probably leave first.

[GreatOak]

YES, lets all do what the foreigners from OTHER countries want us to do. Let give up ALL own rights!

Someone is yelling, never killed anyone in his life= conspiracy nutjob, disregard.
Someone is calm, orders drone strikes on civilians in other countries= awesome and cool, or I'm a racist for thinking otherwise.

Comon people, lets all give our guns to the government! Surely they will protect us!

[intimidate]

Fine, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
...
But if people kill people, why the fuck do we give them the right to semi-automatics?

I don't think that all (or even most) guns should be banned, but whats the rational for owning guns that have such a large fire rate? It takes a single bullet to kill someone: I'm honestly confused what situation an average citizen could encounter where a handgun would be inadequate.

Zombie attack

[Zhangfei]

Or just be blindly ignorant of other successful countries, put your head in the sand and insist you're doing it right after dozens of innocents were gunned down in cold blood. AMERICA!

Seriously; do you not realise what just happened? Do you understand lives were taken? The sheer gravity that children died because a psychopath had easy access to dangerous weapons designed for mass killing? That nothing like this has happened in other countries since they banned certain types of gun? Do you NOT want to correct your society so it never happens again?

It feels so dismissive. If I could save the life of one child by taking all guns, I would. Life is precious, guns are not.

[fizzbob]

^^

He seriously never gives Piers the light of day, and Piers just sits there taking it all like a man.

men don't "take it"
he takes it because he's afraid and he knows security has his back. people like piers morgan can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag but they know it. every man knows what is worth comes down to

---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 11:14 AM ----------

Or just be blindly ignorant of other successful countries, put your head in the sand and insist you're doing it right after dozens of innocents were gunned down in cold blood. AMERICA!

Seriously; do you not realise what just happened? Do you understand lives were taken? The sheer gravity that children died because a psychopath had easy access to dangerous weapons designed for mass killing? That nothing like this has happened in other countries since they banned certain types of gun? Do you NOT want to correct your society so it never happens again?

It feels so dismissive. If I could save the life of one child by taking all guns, I would. Life is precious, guns are not.

all the stats we have show that taking guns away from armed countries INCREASES violent crime. even in the USA in places where you can't own guns, violent crime has risen as a result

overall in america violent crime is down something like 50% since the early 80s.

so no, we don't KNOW anything except crazy people with guns is bad.

[GreatOak]

Hayek supported welfare as a precaution against revolution; so I find it odd you have him as your picture, and (I infer) you are libertarian.

And neo-liberalism is distinctly different from classical liberalism anyway, so it's strange you'd even mention classical liberalism when responding to some talking about modern libertarianism.

But I'm not American so it could just be a language barrier, I know 'liberal' means something very different in the U.S...

The point is that libertarians and classical liberals are nearly the same. So dismissing libertarians ls like dismissing classical liberals.

By the way, I also support basic welfare (that harms nobody) like Hayek. Hell, I even support universal healthcare. I don't think we have a right to healthcare, but it wouldn't hurt to implement it properly and it's better than th clusterfuck we have now. Obamacare is a plague. Hence, I'm a left-libertarian.

[Zhangfei]

all the stats we have show that taking guns away from armed countries INCREASES violent crime. even in the USA in places where you can't own guns, violent crime has risen as a result

overall in america violent crime is down something like 50% since the early 80s.

so no, we don't KNOW anything except crazy people with guns is bad.

The stats also show that the murder rate rapidly decreases by hundreds of percent. So... why is that statistic not mentioned as much?

Murder rate being higher than violent crime rate means your society is doing it much, much poorer than the ones without firearms.

[intimidate]

The crime rate decrease isnt an arguement for guns due to countries which dont have guns have also seen the same trend.....

[Navitas]

It's called controlled opposition people. They bring the crazies out to make their side seem like the only credible one. It's a classic propaganda technique. Quite a few of Alex's facts were right though (rifles don't kill many people).

Sounds like a WWF wrestler.

Don't worry, with that level of shouting/anger and his (presumably) insanely high blood pressure he'll be dead soon enough.

[Hiricine]

Or just be blindly ignorant of other successful countries, put your head in the sand and insist you're doing it right after dozens of innocents were gunned down in cold blood. AMERICA!

I appreciate the sentiment, but the idea to take all guns doesn't even make logical sense. Its the prisoners dilemma--- You can't trust the other guy not to turn on you. Tell people to turn in their guns and the people left with them are the good people smart enough not to give them up and the bad people.

Besides, the gun murder rate among white people using legally owned guns, including mass murders is as low or lower than most european countries.

Your last point is well taken though. If anyone could save one life by taking all guns, I think they would. The problem is that its impossible to take all guns.

[Deleted]

YES, lets all do what the foreigners from OTHER countries want us to do. Let give up ALL own rights!

It's funny that some people think it's OK to attack, invade and sanction other countries don't want foreigners to enter a domestic debate, denying them the rights their own constitution provides.

It's funny that some people think it's OK for their government to attack terrorists with drone attacks, as long as these terrorists have a different nationality.

As long as the U.S. is commenting (to say the least) on other countries on a large scale, they have no right to deny foreigners to comment on themselves. And whether you believe drone strikes are permissible or not, a terrorist is a terrorist and human rights don't just apply to U.S. citizens.

[Wildtree]

If I was up against a regime that would execute innocent people in large numbers to stop a war, It'd be selfish not to sacrifice everything you had. Of course, being a coward, I'd probably leave first.

It's not about being a coward, really. It's natural behavior to save ones life and the life of loved ones.
If it wasn't like that, we would not have had all those tyrannical regimes throughout the history of mankind.
It really just boils down to the question as to whether the US population would be any different than tens of thousands of years of history showing.
The answer to that question, even though speculative, is NO.
Americans would crumble just like all others did before. And that is not a shame. No one would blame them.
Do not mistake that with me not respecting or even admiring freedom fighters... I have the highest respect for them. They are a very rare breed. And I am almost certain, on this platform, in these debates, there is maybe not a single one to find, despite of what some people state in writing. But it's one thing to sit behind a computer, in a safe environment, and make brave claims. It's a whole other thing to live up to it, when the reality is to face real danger.

[Zhangfei]

I appreciate the sentiment, but the idea to take all guns doesn't even make logical sense. Its the prisoners dilemma--- You can't trust the other guy not to turn on you. Tell people to turn in their guns and the people left with them are the good people smart enough not to give them up and the bad people.

Besides, the gun murder rate among white people using legally owned guns, including mass murders is as low or lower than most european countries.

Your last point is well taken though. If anyone could save one life by taking all guns, I think they would. The problem is that its impossible to take all guns.

I'm not advocating copying the UK and Australia. I was thinking more in terms of Switzerland's laws, where gun owners are forced to live under certain conditions and have extensive training, while also going through a buy-back scheme to remove the amount of guns in circulation but making it optional. Either get trained and spend time every year doing it, or don't own a gun. And make it that using a gun or carrying a gun in any type of crime, or carrying a weapon without the training is automatic life imprisonment.

[Priestiality]

Or just be blindly ignorant of other successful countries, put your head in the sand and insist you're doing it right after dozens of innocents were gunned down in cold blood. AMERICA!

Seriously; do you not realise what just happened? Do you understand lives were taken? The sheer gravity that children died because a psychopath had easy access to dangerous weapons designed for mass killing? That nothing like this has happened in other countries since they banned certain types of gun? Do you NOT want to correct your society so it never happens again?

It feels so dismissive. If I could save the life of one child by taking all guns, I would. Life is precious, guns are not.

You DO realize that Adam Lanza attempted to buy a firearm himself but was denied, and only acquired the weapon by stealing it from his murdered mother right? (Not that he should have known where the key to get to said weapon was considering she knew he was crazy and supposedly lived in fear of her own son, but that's another topic for another thread.) I would hardly classify "murdering the woman from whose vagina you burst forth into the world" as "easy access".

[Zhangfei]

You DO realize that Adam Lanza attempted to buy a firearm himself but was denied, and only acquired the weapon by stealing it from his murdered mother right? (Not that he should have known where the key to get to said weapon was considering she knew he was crazy and supposedly lived in fear of her own son, but that's another topic for another thread.) I would hardly classify "murdering the woman from whose vagina you burst forth into the world" as "easy access".

I'd say if it was at home and he knew where it was and where the key was, it's far too easy to access. I'm sure the dead kids and teachers would testify to that too.

[Deleted]

Jesus Christ...what a fucking moron. Gun owners must be so proud to have him represent them.

[Hiricine]

I'm not advocating copying the UK and Australia. I was thinking more in terms of Switzerland's laws, where gun owners are forced to live under certain conditions and have extensive training, while also going through a buy-back scheme to remove the amount of guns in circulation but making it optional. Either get trained and spend time every year doing it, or don't own a gun. And make it that using a gun or carrying a gun in any type of crime, or carrying a weapon without the training is automatic life imprisonment.

I misinterpreted your stance on the issue or you didn't represent it very well in the earlier post. Either way, the Swiss system and gun culture is one to be envied--- they have the least gun crime in the world. Gun training makes absolutely good sense. And I've seen enough "click it or ticket" ads on TV to think that maybe there should be "lock up your guns from your kids" ads instead. Cars are dangerous and we require people to have licenses to get one, why not require people to have some sort of basic training for a gun (like instruction on safe gun storage away from kids, or what type of gun to own for self defense). Perhaps alot of the fighting on this issue is because the right is too inflammatory on the issue and the left is too deceptive (trying to find ways to ban all guns).