Free Will

[Deleted]

Even if things can be random, doesn't that just confirm that we are not in control?

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, he speaks of electrons, guess what functions trough electrons? Indeed, your brain.
I don't care if I am in control or if I'm not, maybe its best that we keep the illusion that we are in control (if it was an illusion in the first place, it was put their because of a reason, in other words, the universe might not function without the illusion).

Pretty deep shit, I must write this down to discuss in the pub later.

[Deleted]

MMO champ wasn't around in 2003?

Don't think it did, no.

[Ashnazg]

Why? Nature doesn't care if I die. We just play by the rules of nature.

Of course it does. Nature wants you to die after you procreate and pass your genes down and provide for your young.

A suicide is in direct violation of "nature's rules" that you claim to play by. Hence its a completely illogical choice that shows you're absolutely outside of the boundaries of nature's control.

[Henako]

We're not being forced to act a certain way or make certain decisions sure. But we are ultimately controlled by nature, or god as some call it. Doesn't sound like free will to me. And most people think of free will as something that allows us to take decisions without being controlled. That is the BS of free will.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. I'm not controlled by nature or God or anything else, beyond involuntary body functions. I have the choice to act or not act. Instinct may play a part in that, but if someone throws a chunk of meat in front of me it's absolutely my decision whether to eat it or not. There's no mystical force driving me to eat the meat. I can just as easily shrug and turn away.

After scrolling through the rest of the thread, you're ignoring whimsy. You'd be a fool to believe that every decision man makes is rooted in logic. You're wrong brudduh. No matter how you try to twist it.

[George]

There is no free will, only the illusion of it.

[Tripl]

I can, but do you think I would? If I did, I would have a reason to do so. So it becomes logical. There is ALWAYS a reason.

You really make no sense at all. Your definition of reason somehow seems to eliminate free will, but why? Lets say I have been gaming for a while and really need to visit the loo. Logically I stand up and go to the bathroom to relieve myself. This is my choice, my free will. In your mind you will probably be yelling "BUT IT IS LOGIC SO IT IS NOT FREE WILL." but what is free will then? If anything logical is incapable of being free will then illogical decisions have to be free will right? So in my case I will have to pee under my desk, preferably without taking my pants off, to be free of will, even though my experience and knowledge tells me that this will be bad for my health and really unpleasant.

Free will and logic do not strive with each other, they are different concepts. A follower of a horribly oppressive regime can be convinced to making logical decisions without having a free will and the other way around. The fact that my experience tells me not to pee on my seat (logical) does not make my choice to go to the bathroom at that exact time (my choice, free will) unfree.


Also, most of your arguments are completely based on assumptions. Stop stating them as facts. (Referring mostly to your time-travel story here)

[nameuser]

Of course it does. Nature wants you to die after you procreate and pass your genes down and provide for your young.

A suicide is in direct violation of "nature's rules" that you claim to play by. Hence its a completely illogical choice that shows you're absolutely outside of the boundaries of nature's control.

If I kill myself, then I were meant to die. Probably because I would not contribute to a good evolution.

[Deleted]

Of course it does. Nature wants you to die after you procreate and pass your genes down and provide for your young.

A suicide is in direct violation of "nature's rules"

Nothing is in violation with nature's rules. That is impossible. Humans are nature themselves, suicide might be a natural phenomenon among intelligent and emotionel species, sadly the only intelligent/emotional species we can observe are humans. (lol intelligent xp)

[caractacus]

Even if things can be random, doesn't that just confirm that we are not in control?

I like to think of it in terms of a pendulum.

A single pendulum has no free will, when you swing it it will do exactly the same depending on the amount of force applied, resistance etc.

Now look at a double pendulum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U39RMUzCjiU when swung it behave completely erratically and conforms to no set routine and gives a random result every time, this could be seen as free will. It is free because it is not constrained to a set outcome every time a force is placed upon it. Like us it does not have ultimate free will, it cannot suddenly decide to jump off the table and do a jig just the same as I can't suddenly decide to fly to the moon.

[Deleted]

Nothing is in violation with nature's rules. That is impossible. Humans are nature themselves, suicide might be a natural phenomenon among intelligent and emotionel species, sadly the only intelligent/emotional species we can observe are humans. (lol intelligent xp)

Cats can commit suicide too! They are not a very intelligent species. They are very emotional though. Emotional might be a bad choice of word. Labile! That's the word I was looking for.

[nameuser]

You really make no sense at all. Your definition of reason somehow seems to eliminate free will, but why? Lets say I have been gaming for a while and really need to visit the loo. Logically I stand up and go to the bathroom to relieve myself. This is my choice, my free will. In your mind you will probably be yelling "BUT IT IS LOGIC SO IT IS NOT FREE WILL." but what is free will then? If anything logical is incapable of being free will then illogical decisions have to be free will right? So in my case I will have to pee under my desk, preferably without taking my pants off, to be free of will, even though my experience and knowledge tells me that this will be bad for my health and really unpleasant.

Free will and logic do not strive with each other, they are different concepts. A follower of a horribly oppressive regime can be convinced to making logical decisions without having a free will and the other way around. The fact that my experience tells me not to pee on my seat (logical) does not make my choice to go to the bathroom at that exact time (my choice, free will) unfree.


Also, most of your arguments are completely based on assumptions. Stop stating them as facts. (Referring mostly to your time-travel story here)

There is reasons to everything you do on a microscopic level.

If you pee under your desk as you said, to "prove" that you have free will, then you did it exactly because of that... not random. It was actually logical. you can never escape it.

[Crotalus]

What is nature to you? You speak of it as though it has some controlling force? Are you implying that basic human instinct is 'nature'?

There is no 'god' in control of me, nor of my will. Therefore your theory is not all inclusive of humanity, and is more philosophical, i.e., your own views on life. Hmm, that almost proves you have free will, now doesn't it? You believe differently than I. Which begs the question, are we pre-programmed in our beliefs? No, we are not. We are guided in our beliefs, but our chosen path is ultimately up to us. Hence, every human being has free will. Of course, once we are mentally aged enough to begin to comprehend basic decision making. An infant acts solely on instinct whilst it develops it's own conscience.

[Rukentuts]

Cats can commit suicide too. They are not a very intelligent species. They are very emotional though.

This reminds me of that Bridgestone ad where the dog finds his GF cheating on him and attempts to commit suicide by jumping out onto the freeway.

[Deleted]

This reminds me of that Bridgestone ad where the dog finds his GF cheating on him and attempts to commit suicide by jumping out onto the freeway.

Oh lol! Had almost forgotten about that one. xD

My uncle had a depressed cat when I was a kid, that one killed itself. I mean, living with a jobless alcoholic probably isn't the most cheerful environment for a cat. It refused to eat(The little food it got) and then it passed a few days later. We laugh about it these days.
He is probably the worlds worst pet owner. I mean, you don't have to do much for a cat. You feed it and stay da fack away. He clearly failed at that and the cat committed suicide. xD

[Ashnazg]

If I kill myself, then I were meant to die. Probably because I would not contribute to a good evolution.

That makes no sense. You were "meant" to die? By what, fate? If you start arguing down that line, then you lose any coherence of an argument.

What about people who make a conscious decision to sacrifice themselves for the sake of others, even when the survival of that other person is not guaranteed? Think Will Smith (and his stupid rant against robots) in I, Robot. He jumps into water to rescue a drowning kid, even though the probability of success is almost nil. A robot doesn't because he knows its futile. A human does, because it exercises free will, empty of reason and logic. An act of "emotion".

[skrump]

I disagree with the Op as I was raised to be/believe/act a certain way.

Then I made the choice to actually examine my beliefs/actions before making the decision that I wanted nothing to do with the illogical bullshit ideals I was raised with.

Furthermore my unconscious mind is still me and should it effect the decisions of my conscious mind I am still the one making the decision of my own free will be it entirely conscious or not.

The only theory i've found where that could be argued to be untrue is with the cause of homosexuality being a genetic defect that forces your brain to be more attracted to the wrong gender than the proper one thus effectively removing your freedom to choose for yourself, though it could also be argued that hetrosexuals lack that same freedom considering their attraction is still gender based meaning the only non defective people are Bisexuals.

All that said I still don't buy into the idea that genetics have the power to alter ones perception toward attraction in such a way simply because if that is the case we would have to label pedophiles, zoophiles, necrophiliacs and those who partake in incestuous actions to be manipulated by their own genetics due to what they perceive as attractive thus it would be unethical to judge them based on those actions which we find so atrocious.

[Kurioxan]

You can already predict it in a way. If you have a lot of experience dealing with people, you find that most make the same decisions provided the same input.

Hell, the whole "science" of picking up girls relies on that.

That is assuming the "science" of picking up girls works at all, lots of girls wont fall for that, only those willing already.

That's because it would move the otherwise unconscious decision into the conscious.

isnt that enough to show free will exists?

[Crotalus]

I disagree with the Op as I was raised to be/believe/act a certain way.

Then I made the choice to actually examine my beliefs/actions before making the decision that I wanted nothing to do with the illogical bullshit ideals I was raised with.

Furthermore my unconscious mind is still me and should it effect the decisions of my conscious mind I am still the one making the decision of my own free will be it entirely conscious or not.

The only theory i've found where that could be argued to be untrue is with the cause of homosexuality being a genetic defect that forces your brain to be more attracted to the wrong gender than the proper one thus effectively removing your freedom to choose for yourself, though it could also be argued that hetrosexuals lack that same freedom considering their attraction is still gender based meaning the only non defective people are Bisexuals.

Wait a minute, Skrump. Confirm for me, are you saying you could argue that homosexuality is a choice? I have not finished my coffee yet so just trying to make sure I understand you correctly.

[Mifuyne]

Free will is a human invention.
Thus it is real and unreal at the same time.

It's a word that makes us feel better, cause we like to be in control when in-fact, we never are and always are.

[Reeve]

Free will is a human invention.
Thus it is real and unreal at the same time.

Schrodinger's Choice?