What energy change do Rogues want most ?

[Coldkil]

-snip-

Not to bash you at all (actually i agree at a whole) but i voted for "better energy regen" because i intended it as "a better system for regenerate energy" and not "i want more energy".

Just to point it out As i said also in other posts, haste scaling should be taken out since it's the source of all the mad - we get to be incredibly slow at start and at the end we get so much energy we basically waste it.

BTW, the Assassination talent was Overkill - and i liked it a lot (well, i liked also the old HfB in Naxx when WotLK started, but it was a terrible design lol).

Energy regen should be baseline. Give every spec tool to regenerate it in active ways (i like to think SnD as a damage dealing finishers which works like envenom, buffing atk speed and energy regen) depending on what the spec actually needs.

[truevalon]

Another thing to consider is removing the energy cost from finishers. Keep them as purely combo point consuming moves and have energy only used for combo building moves.

[Tenjen]

That's fine, what would you do instead?
Nothing?
Something?
Would you rather just wait for it to return, like it is now?
Would you prefer some form of interaction?
Do you want it tied to RNG?
Do you want it to be stable?
Do you want it passively?
Do you want it tied to an already existing mechanic, ala SnD for Sub?

GIVE ME SOMETHING TO WORK WITH, GODDAMMIT!!!

I dont know, make it atleast..20% cooler.

*cough*

Rogues mechanics havent aged well. We're like sharks but thing is all the other predators are great too and adapting and changing all the time while our course of development has made it hard to shift us about on as fundamental a level as the others have (multiple times).

The revealing strike/execute w.proc /backstab mechanic was a step in the right direction.

As mentioned at this point we're having energy problems, it always happens in expansions (though not quite as far as it did this time but we managed). With each tier our energy regen will follow the habits it did in the past and become manageable and we'll receive a glut of it around the end.

I really dont think energy and combo's are the main issue (not the primary focus that is). They dont need to be changed on a fundamental level anyway to improve rogues. If we focus on the rotations and utilities, the combo and energy system will ofcourse follow as a secondary focus. But focusing on them primarily will not solve our current issues. We may miss the forest for the tree's if we go that way.

Its just really hard to think up of new viable rotations for each of the specs that furthers the step in the right direction we received this expansion with our cycles while maintaining our identity and not screwing up how to keep us balanced with the other classes (especially over the long term with the checks and balances system). Less passive and more active damage is fine but HOW is difficult and it will be a while yet for changes to come, though i do see blizz is experimenting and checking the effects of subtle shifts and changes over time.

[Rhelyo]

Not to bash you at all (actually i agree at a whole) but i voted for "better energy regen" because i intended it as "a better system for regenerate energy" and not "i want more energy".

Just to point it out As i said also in other posts, haste scaling should be taken out since it's the source of all the mad - we get to be incredibly slow at start and at the end we get so much energy we basically waste it.

BTW, the Assassination talent was Overkill - and i liked it a lot (well, i liked also the old HfB in Naxx when WotLK started, but it was a terrible design lol).

Energy regen should be baseline. Give every spec tool to regenerate it in active ways (i like to think SnD as a damage dealing finishers which works like envenom, buffing atk speed and energy regen) depending on what the spec actually needs.

While it might be true that haste affecting energy regen at the end of an xpac is a bad thing for combat due to capping it,what about assassination?
By removing haste affecting energy regen wont it be a bigger issue at the start of an xpac?
Mind that i play as assassination and i don't want to be more energy "starved" than i am already.

[Kael]

While it might be true that haste affecting energy regen at the end of an xpac is a bad thing for combat due to capping it,what about assassination?
By removing haste affecting energy regen wont it be a bigger issue at the start of an xpac?
Mind that i play as assassination and i don't want to be more energy "starved" than i am already.

The idea he's suggesting is that rather than have 10 EPS with +1 EPS per 10% haste, each spec have +Energy abilities, and not get +1 EPS per 10% haste (and maybe change the base 10 EPS, who knows). This would have the OPPOSITE effect of making you starved at the beginning of the expansion; we're currently tuned to have as little energy as possible during the first tier, so we just barely cap (outside AR/lust) during the final tier. From BoT (T11) to DS (T13) I saw energy values as low as 10.5 energy per second near the beginning, which is SLOW, and so much energy under lust I was capping near the end of H DS.

Both of those situations is stale (to me). In the first, it's too damn slow. In the second, you hardly consider energy a resource; your limitations are the GCD and combo points.

The best option I can see is to not be too LOW on energy regen at the beginning, or too HIGH on regen at the end, by not having energy regen tied to haste, but increased at base/with abilities. Be a LOT easier to balance stats around that, too.

[Deleted]

I don't like being forced to keep up slice and dice or previously recuperate to be able to do damage. Missed so many kills because I had to recuperate instead of offensive abilites. Stupid.

[Deleted]

Bigger energy pool. I am a PVPer, and having a higher pool would allow for much more devastating burst fazes. Having higher regeneration would be nice for consistent damage, but burst is better in PVP.

pretty much this when it comes to pvp

[Telwar]

Re design the energy to be unaffected by haste,so we dont feel like shit in the beggining of the expansions, and at the end just spamming as hard as we can to not cap ourselves.

This. It can help us somewhat, but it shouldn't have that huge an effect.

[Choptimus]

Take away the 60% passive damage (poisons/white).

[Luko]

I think Energy needs to be redesignd completely ...

It is just not fun to have to wait for energy to regen even for the very basic rotation without any extras thrown in.

See, rogues have been saying this since WotLK and I completely agree. So explain to me why I logged into MMO-champ today and ran face first into this little fucking treasure:

"To use FPS terms, the high auto+poison damage keeps rogues feeling like an SMG instead of a shotgun. Maybe time for a change?"

I actually raged a little. An SMG? Huh? Maybe if someone duct taped the trigger down, dropped the firearm and walked off to make a sandwich. We'd be machine guns if we were actually fast paced. Right now, It's like playing your favorite football title in Coach mode; pick the plays and hope it works out for ya, considering how little manual control you have over the output.

/fume.

[deviantcultist]

A little bit of every option, plus new mechanics and revamp similar to the MoP Warlock.

[Choptimus]

See, rogues have been saying this since WotLK and I completely agree. So explain to me why I logged into MMO-champ today and ran face first into this little fucking treasure:

"To use FPS terms, the high auto+poison damage keeps rogues feeling like an SMG instead of a shotgun. Maybe time for a change?"

I actually raged a little. An SMG? Huh? Maybe if someone duct taped the trigger down, dropped the firearm and walked off to make a sandwich. We'd be machine guns if we were actually fast paced. Right now, It's like playing your favorite football title in Coach mode; pick the plays and hope it works out for ya, considering how little manual control you have over the output.

/fume.

1 second GCD. Every class has to wait for resources. At least yours still generates if you get a miss streak or are out of range of the boss.

[Luko]

1 second GCD. Every class has to wait for resources. At least yours still generates if you get a miss streak or are out of range of the boss.

Wait, huh? What in the world are you going on about? Of course there's a GCD. What does that have to do with waiting 8 seconds in between Mutilates, staring at the screen like paralyzed infants? Frost DKs are slamming out abilities as fast as humanly possible. Even classes like enhancement shaman who used to have giant gaps in their rotations feel like they're in fast motion compared to rogues. Warriors have on-demand abilities to use even when they have 0 resource.

Monk's use a carbon copy of our energy/talent system yet they never stop spamming abilities (save for the channeled FoF.) Any one of the other playstyle options is more captivating and engaging than any of the current rogue specs, not to mention more rewarding. That's an issue and I feel like the blue posts did an impressive job of dodging that point today. (again?)

[Choptimus]

Wait, huh? What in the world are you going on about? Of course there's a GCD. What does that have to do with waiting 8 seconds in between Mutilates, staring at the screen like paralyzed infants? Frost DKs are slamming out abilities as fast as humanly possible. Even classes like enhancement shaman who used to have giant gaps in their rotations feel like they're in fast motion compared to rogues. Warriors have on-demand abilities to use even when they have 0 resource.

Monk's use a carbon copy of our energy/talent system yet they never stop spamming abilities (save for the channeled FoF.) Any one of the other playstyle options is more captivating and engaging than any of the current rogue specs, not to mention more rewarding. That's an issue and I feel like the blue posts did an impressive job of dodging that point today. (again?)

Don't mad. The 1 sec GCD is your "fast paced style that feels like an SMG".

[Luko]

Don't mad. The 1 sec GCD is your "fast paced style that feels like an SMG".

I... literally just typed out two paragraphs countering that logic and you're choosing to ignore it completely to essentially repeat what I responded to in the first place with absolutely no reasoning behind it. I'm not even totally sure what you're getting at anymore.

[Choptimus]

I... literally just typed out two paragraphs countering that logic and you're choosing to ignore it completely to essentially repeat what I responded to in the first place with absolutely no reasoning behind it. I'm not even totally sure what you're getting at anymore.

Blizzards argument about fast paced is the 1 second GCD. Stop getting emotional, I understand you love your class or whatever, but I'm just telling you what Blizzard consider "fast paced SMG style"... it's the 1 second GCD.

[Luko]

Oh, you're still on that. Listen, guy, I was making (perhaps an over-assuming) presumption that the GCD thing was obvious because of their statement that I quoted in the original post. My point was that in reality, the 1s GCD doesn't actually mean anything unless we're pressing our keys so fast that we find ourselves battling with the GCD. (See also; During adrenaline rush.) Any other time, there is massive gaps between our abilities as everyone knows and frequently complains about. You yourself mentioned the over abundance of passive damage being a problem which in the case of class interactivity, doesn't make us very SMG-like at all, hence my original argument to the concept.

We all got their meaning. I was disagreeing with it from the start. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

[LilSaihah]

Take away the 60% passive damage (poisons/white).

So delete SnD? Wouldn't that be nice.

[Choptimus]

So delete SnD? Wouldn't that be nice.

Keep the mechanic/design of a buff to maintain, but move the passive damage over to active damage. (I understand it's hard due to PvP, but seing 60% of my damage being passive is annoying)

@Ryngo: I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying blizzards argument is you have a 1sec GCD, that's your fast pace. I'm not saying blizzard are right.

[LilSaihah]

Keep the mechanic/design of a buff to maintain, but move the passive damage over to active damage. (I understand it's hard due to PvP, but seing 60% of my damage being passive is annoying)

@Ryngo: I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying blizzards argument is you have a 1sec GCD, that's your fast pace. I'm not saying blizzard are right.

Mechanics which we already have in Deadly Poison, Bandit's Guile and Rupture?