Suggestion: If Rift does go F2P...

[RoninaThorstone]

But that does not sum it up. At all, what about all the free stuff I mentioned giving. It's a huge free trial. All the Chocolate Rift has to offer, plus SL souls. I mean really? Sub or GTFO sums that up in it's entirety?

Also, not to mention the fact, that as I keep saying, Rift offers more for a sub than any other game. It earns it's sub. You get so so much for that $15. Prove that you are worth it, people will pay it, look at the growing population of Rift. If you compare it to other sub models, it is exactly what you are saying, but what if I told you, you buy one sub to the magazine and you not only get the magazine, but you get that magazine twice as often, with more in each one, than any other magazine, plus another magazine sub for free. Because with Rifts sub model that is what you get, far more than any other sub game I have seen ever offer. No lapses in content release, hotfixes the size of patches, and some patches, like EI the size of expansions.

Also, it was not entirely sub or GTFO, as you can include fluff in that too. Because really, without Fluff there is nothing other than the sub. I am very adamantly against offering any type of boosts or useful weapons/armor for sale. If that was the only thing for sale, and it was free to 60, without having to pay for raids, without having to pay to PvP, just..free, and the only things to buy were fluff, how would they make money. Too many players would buy nothing, becase everything they want is free. You have to incentiveize paying with more than fluff. I would even argue under this model, with fluff available to sale to both F2P and subscribers, lowering the monthly sub to $7.50-10.00/month. They will have additional revenue from the fluff, so why not. However, I see no reason why someone who has not payed a dime should be able to experience all the latest content with no fee. If you offer a sub and a way to buy it a la carte then you have to deal with player confusion. Now I have to sit there and figure, ok, well I raid this much, so I could spend X if I bought a la carte and Y if I sub, then if I want to buy fluff my total will be Z one way and Q the other. This leaves people feeling like they got screwed.

In my proposed model, you could play all the game had to offer in chocolate for free. You would get to see all the patch notes, see what is available to you, see what you get for that smaller than normal sub, for free. You could also buy fluff if you want, mounts, wardrobes, pets, dances, emotes, whatever, and support the game. So it is not entirely sub or GTFO, it is play at 50(or 60 once 70 comes out), unlimited, no restrictions, all of chocolate Rift. Then if you feel it is worth it, you can go "freemium" if you prefer. You can still buy Fluff on either end, the same exact fluff. The only difference is, you do not get it as fast. When you do get it though, it is fully refined. It's been fine tuned. In addition to all this, you could incentivize 60's to participate with the 50s. Offer rep of your choice when running IAs in old world. Offer Infinity Stones or Expert Dungeon Marks for doing Zone Events in old world. Perhaps even get the mentoring system working a bit better and even offer weekly raid or daily expert quests for 60's to mentor and go do 50 stuff.

This is really the only way I see to leave items, boosts and anything that could possibly be considered pay to win or pay to advance quicker or pay for quality of life out of the equation.

Edit: Last thing I forgot to mention, and is actually a huge part of the model. There is no cost to the game itself. You do not have to buy SL, you simply start paying. Maybe if they wanted a nominal $5 fee. Still offer CE, Ashes of History...all those little additions though.

Who is saying everything should be free? Stop beating up the strawman.

Also, it's not confusing. Key to Frozen Tempest: 1000 coins (Grants access to the raid Frozen Tempest). You are having to fabricate reasons at this point.

[Lathais]

Who is saying everything should be free? Stop beating up the strawman.

Also, it's not confusing. Key to Frozen Tempest: 1000 coins (Grants access to the raid Frozen Tempest). You are having to fabricate reasons at this point.

Because I do not like that model where you pay a bit here, pay a bit there. Just pay the months you don't want to pay, and don't pay the months you don't. Now, whenever new content comes out, I have to go buy it. Instead of set it and forget it. I am disagreeing with that model, and any model you have presented, and presenting my own. Not beating up strawmen.

[RoninaThorstone]

Because I do not like that model where you pay a bit here, pay a bit there. Just pay the months you don't want to pay, and don't pay the months you don't. Now, whenever new content comes out, I have to go buy it. Instead of set it and forget it. I am disagreeing with that model, and any model you have presented, and presenting my own. Not beating up strawmen.

Ah, I see now. You think that YOU would be a F2P player.

F2P almost always has both a subscription AND a f2p option. Subscribers would not "buy new content when it comes out" they would have instant access to it so long as their subscription is up. For YOU nothing would change besides getting some bonus's to your account because you prefer a subscription model. For the hundreds of thousands of players who don't like subscriptions for w/e reasons, they would be F2P players.

If you go back and read the carrot section you will see that I include a subscription model.
You don't play very many F2P model games, do you? I mean, I have about 8 f2p mmos on my computer right now and about 6 of them also have subscription models.

[Deleted]

The best post.

I do believe this barrier to entry with MMOs will naturally fade as the market becomes more fragmented.

As the market will slowly start to fragment (aka wow's death throes) i fear it will never get back to this point again, nothing will be as mainstream as wow.
And being mainstream has it's benefits.

[RoninaThorstone]

After some research, I saw one that if you subscribe even one month or buy from the store *ever*, you're at a better status than the 'never spent a cent' player *forever*. That's the good kind of F2P setup. SWTOR is an example of what NOT to do.

Swtor has the same thing, it's called preferred status. However, swtor has other, more serious, issues.

[Lathais]

Ah, I see now. You think that YOU would be a F2P player.

F2P almost always has both a subscription AND a f2p option. Subscribers would not "buy new content when it comes out" they would have instant access to it so long as their subscription is up. For YOU nothing would change besides getting some bonus's to your account because you prefer a subscription model. For the hundreds of thousands of players who don't like subscriptions for w/e reasons, they would be F2P players.

If you go back and read the carrot section you will see that I include a subscription model.
You don't play very many F2P model games, do you? I mean, I have about 8 f2p mmos on my computer right now and about 6 of them also have subscription models.

I am also against having both. One or the other please. As soon as you have both, now I have to question, am I better off buying piece meal or buying a sub? What if I buy points/coins whatever, then decide to sub, now I am stuck with coins. Someway, somehow, people will feel like they are getting screwed for choosing the wrong option. Also, now, when running raids or a guild, you have one more thing to keep track of. Who has what. This is the player confusion I was referring too. Have one system, or the other, not both.

For the thousands of F2P players, they can have last years content. If they want to step up, they can sub.

No, I do not, because everyone I have played I felt I was at a huge disadvantage if I did not buy items and the sub did not seem worth it as there would still have been things I needed to buy on top of it. That or the game was just plain lousy and not worth a cent anyway. That's why I feel Rift is different. It is worth the sub where other games are not.

[RoninaThorstone]

I am also against having both. One or the other please. As soon as you have both, now I have to question, am I better off buying piece meal or buying a sub? What if I buy points/coins whatever, then decide to sub, now I am stuck with coins. Someway, somehow, people will feel like they are getting screwed for choosing the wrong option. Also, now, when running raids or a guild, you have one more thing to keep track of. Who has what. This is the player confusion I was referring too. Have one system, or the other, not both.

Most people feel less screwed when they have the power of choice. (also, coins would be able to be used to purchase thousands of cosmetic items. So they wouldn't be 'stuck with coins')

Also, elaborate on bolded please.

edit: Another thing, choosing a payment model might be difficult for you. That doesn't mean its hard for everyone else.

[Lathais]

Ok, so then you are saying I would be a F2P player, because I do not want cosmetic items, hell, I don't even do holiday events, nor do I really worry about most achieves, other than dungeon and raids. So now you are forcing me to buy content as it comes out and pay less cause I don't care about that other crap, or sub and be left with tons of worthless coins. I do not like that model. That is retarded and I would quit.

That is a system that would drive me away from the game.

Who has what? Ok, we are a raiding guild, it's raid night. Players A, B and C are subs, so i know they can go to whatever, Players D, E and F have bought all raid content peice meal, so I know they can go. G and H bought 1 10 man, I and J bought the other. Now I either have to place a requirement on all players in my guild must have all raid content(and get labeled a fucking arrogant elitist) or try to figure out on a night by night basis what I actually have enough people for. Retarded.

[RoninaThorstone]

Who has what? Ok, we are a raiding guild, it's raid night. Players A, B and C are subs, so i know they can go to whatever, Players D, E and F have bought all raid content peice meal, so I know they can go. G and H bought 1 10 man, I and J bought the other. Now I either have to place a requirement on all players in my guild must have all raid content(and get labeled a fucking arrogant elitist) or try to figure out on a night by night basis what I actually have enough people for. Retarded.

buying content piece meal is the same thing as being attuned to the raids you buy.

Basically, you are saying that raiding guilds wouldn't be able to function because of attunements? Are you serious?
Also, if you have raid sign ups like everyone else does, people who aren't attuned won't sign up for that raid.

[Lathais]

Keep in mind that Lathais' focus on raiding above everything makes for a very narrow view of a game. Rift has *so much more* than raids going for it, but, for him, that's the only thing that really matters. Everything else is just support to get him to raids...or fluff he would rather the dev team didn't spend time on.

Sure, Fencers loves to raid, but he understands that the other stuff in the game serves a purpose, too, even if it's not something he uses. All together, everything the game offers keeps some people playing. Distilling the game down to one thing loses people.

So much more? Please elaborate. Are you referring to the dungeons? Been there, done that, got the gear, moved on. Great Hunts? Dear god, I've done so many, just shoot me. Carnages? Done. Reps? Farming IA? Zone events? I've done the same ones over and over enough already thanks you. Dimensions? If I wanted a sandbox game, I'd play a sandbox game. Better yet, if i wanted to build cool shit, epecially in a F2P model that's been proposed where I need to pay for the cool stuff, I'll go buy real life materials and build real life things with my real money.

[RoninaThorstone]

Ok, so then you are saying I would be a F2P player, because I do not want cosmetic items, hell, I don't even do holiday events, nor do I really worry about most achieves, other than dungeon and raids. So now you are forcing me to buy content as it comes out and pay less cause I don't care about that other crap, or sub and be left with tons of worthless coins. I do not like that model. That is retarded and I would quit.

That is a system that would drive me away from the game.

If you don't care about the side stuff why would you buy a ton of coins or subscribe? I mean, think about it.

If you JUST raid, then why would you switch to subscription? You buying piece meal would save you money.
If you can't handle navigating the in game cash shop (which is both highly unlikely and hilarious to contemplate as it would take about about 2 clicks to complete purchasing content) why would you buy a ton of coins when you prefer a subscription model?

This scenario you have cooked up would never happen to anyone with a brain.

[Lathais]

buying content piece meal is the same thing as being attuned to the raids you buy.

Basically, you are saying that raiding guilds wouldn't be able to function because of attunements? Are you serious?
Also, if you have raid sign ups like everyone else does, people who aren't attuned won't sign up for that raid.

Signups? No thanks. We bring the same 10/20 people every night with 2-3 backups that get rotated in. We don't have signups. Signups are for guilds that do not think they will have enough people, or guilds with so damn many people you end up raiding with a different team every night, cause it's just who signed up first. Not a tight knit group of raiders that plays with each other regularly and knows exactly the capabilities of the player next to him. Knows how he will react in almost any situation.

[RoninaThorstone]

Signups? No thanks. We bring the same 10/20 people every night with 2-3 backups that get rotated in. We don't have signups. Signups are for guilds that do not think they will have enough people, or guilds with so damn many people you end up raiding with a different team every night, cause it's just who signed up first. Not a tight knit group of raiders that plays with each other regularly and knows exactly the capabilities of the player next to him. Knows how he will react in almost any situation.

Which is exactly the type of group that would know who has what and thus it wouldn't be a problem. Not to mention, if they are regular raiders they would have bought the raids or would be subscribers.

[DeltrusDisc]

You pretty much just confirmed your narrow view. Everything there, you dismissed as unimportant, because raids are *the only thing that matters to you.*

Is it a narrow view or him just recognizing what parts of an MMORPG he cares about and what parts he doesn't? To be fair, carnages are limited (I was asking all the way back in the beta for them to reset at some point Q.Q) IA and zone events can only be done so many times until they drive you nuts. The unfortunate thing is that SL launched with so few varying zone events and thus kind of made things a little boring for those of us who were there from launch.

I'm personally probably not going to be Rifting too much for at least a few weeks. College just started back up and Path of Exile is obnoxiously fun, but I'm hoping 2.2 and 2.3 bring me more of the things I was hoping would come with SL in the first place or within the first month.

[Lathais]

You pretty much just confirmed your narrow view. Everything there, you dismissed as unimportant, because raids are *the only thing that matters to you.*

I didn't dismiss them, I said I am already done with them. I enjoyed them at first, they were a step, an enjoyable step, that I am past.

[Edge-]

As soon as you have both, now I have to question, am I better off buying piece meal or buying a sub?

If you have to question that then it's a shitty model. The subscription should always be the better option for people who want access to the entire game.

[Lathais]

Path of Exile is obnoxiously fun

Yes, it is. Very very fun.

[Fencers]

and that is exactly why I think that a game should prove it is worth the sub.

Do you think there is any sub based game out now that out does Rift in content quality and quantity? I do not.

Rift is hardly the most popular MMO in the current market. Most of the time people forget it even exists in articles, editorials, podcasts and so forth.

The sentiment of "earning your sub" is nice. These games are made with profit in mind. They are not all Mortal Online or The Cat & The Coup by which they are as much about philosophy and design than actual marketability. F2P is a stronger source of $ than subs in the current saturated and fragmented market.

That is just a reality outside of your own myopic view.

[Lathais]

Do you think there is any sub based game out now that out does Rift in content quality and quantity? I do not.

Rift is hardly the most popular MMO in the current market. Most of the time people forget it even exists in articles, editorials, podcasts and so forth.

The sentiment of "earning your sub" is nice. These games are made with profit in mind. They are not all Mortal Online or The Cat & The Coup by which they are as much about philosophy and design than actual marketability. F2P is a stronger source of $ than subs in the current saturated and fragmented market.

That is just a reality outside of your own myopic view.

MY own myopic view. Well, it also happens to be the view of Trion Worlds, so it isn't just mine. Yeah, Trion Worlds made Rift with profit in mind. They are profitable with a sub model and choose to stick with it. They have earned my sub and all of you sitting here screaming for F2P as well. Rifts population is healthy and growing and they are profitable, with a sub. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Edge-]

They have earned my sub and all of you sitting here screaming for F2P as well.

Please quote one post in the thread that someone "screamed for F2P" with regards to Rift. We're discussing it, we're discussing the model, I know I may have said I think that F2P would benefit Rift financially, but I don't think I've seen a single person "scream" for it to become F2P.