Fire mage thoughts

[spaace]

anyone can plug random numbers.
got a source from your rankings? or did you just guess?
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000

looks pretty close overall to me.



AB, scorch, ab, scorch while standing in a rune of power shows great talent.

Heating up works fine. Just use it right and you get better benefits.
You just need the right gear set to make fire work. Not everything is "get loot, click MrRobot, and go"

[Deleted]

Fire is fine.

Like any "advanced" spec, you need the gear and skill behind it.

"advanced"lololololol.what skill? u think being completely dependent on critting is skill?

[Deleted]

New secondary resource : heat bar with a threshold (0-100|100-200)

Basic gameplay :
- Fireball generates heat
- A crit generates more heat
- A crit above threshold grants a Pyro!
- A Pyro! consume heat
- Scorch/New spell to consume excess heat when no Pyro!

So that means if you double crit, you have a Pyro! but you can also build your heat through FB/LB to help with RNG

Some ideas :
- Combustion consume all heat to create a DoT (based on heat) which attempt to spread each time it ticks
- Change some spells to consume heat : a shield/mini-cauterize (trade some damage for survivability), a blazing speed effect after you blink, a Blastwave effect
- A new Talent Tier that let you choose a new spell/effect to generate heat : Flame Orb for burst heat, a proc to add a new spell generating heat to the rotation, an empowered Living Bomb for a more passive, constant flow option

[Sealed]

I'd be interested in that, Neia. The heat/charge bar is a concept I'm fond of, and one of the things I loved with Warhammer Online's Sorceress/Bright Wizard (a bar that buids up with each spell, some providing bigger increments, which increases your crit rate and damage but also the chances of being hit by a backlash).

Since mana is now irrelevant for non-arcane mages, such an alternative resource might as well replace it.

[Schizophreni]

anyone can plug random numbers.
got a source from your rankings? or did you just guess?
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000

looks pretty close overall to me.

Your links don't work. Raidbots 25M Heroic with the 2 week sample size and the top 100, the default.

AB, scorch, ab, scorch while standing in a rune of power shows great talent.

Do it and do it well then, it'd be more an asset to your raid than doing mediocre to poor of your potential damage as fire.

Heating up works fine. Just use it right and you get better benefits.
You just need the right gear set to make fire work. Not everything is "get loot, click MrRobot, and go"

No, fire doesn't just magically work, there is no gear currently available that will make it work. It is a subpar spec when it comes to damage, and a frustrating spec when it comes to the current crit rate. It has only one place, effective cleave on three targets for more than 70% of the fight and the only fight it works on is Garalon.

[Stache]

anyone can plug random numbers.
got a source from your rankings? or did you just guess?
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000

looks pretty close overall to me.

I don't think you fully understand what it is you just linked. This is the Overall (as in across all bosses) DPS as measured by Standard deviation for the top 100 logs posted in the last 14 weeks. So basically you are measuring (roughly) how much the top parse from the last 14 days was different from the 100th.

This doesn't put into account that there might be a difference in the sample pools taken from the top 100 arcane logs and the top 100 fire logs.

More importantly: This doesn't compare specs.

if the top arcane log was 500k and the lowest was 400k, then the top fire log was 150k and the lowest was 50k, both would have about the same standard deviation. (and it would like like they are tied: "omg look fire and arcane are both at 100k see? gg")

[nimryas]

New secondary resource : heat bar with a threshold (0-100|100-200)

Basic gameplay :
- Fireball generates heat
- A crit generates more heat
- A crit above threshold grants a Pyro!
- A Pyro! consume heat
- Scorch/New spell to consume excess heat when no Pyro!

So that means if you double crit, you have a Pyro! but you can also build your heat through FB/LB to help with RNG

Some ideas :
- Combustion consume all heat to create a DoT (based on heat) which attempt to spread each time it ticks
- Change some spells to consume heat : a shield/mini-cauterize (trade some damage for survivability), a blazing speed effect after you blink, a Blastwave effect
- A new Talent Tier that let you choose a new spell/effect to generate heat : Flame Orb for burst heat, a proc to add a new spell generating heat to the rotation, an empowered Living Bomb for a more passive, constant flow option

I would sign for this!

As been said before, fire usually sucks at the start of an expansion (wasnt the case with MoP, but 'luckily' blizzard changed this soon enough when they nerfed our crit) and then slowly but steady becomes the most powerful spec and at the same time the most weakest spec (since it's crit dependent). It's a pretty straight forward rotation which can be fun (if you got alot of pyro procs) but can also be mind numbing (when you get about zero procs). This is why I think the fire mage should be revamped in a way that most classes did --> a secundairy resource.

This would make it easier to balance mages around other classes, cause blizz would have a way to nerf/buff fire mages through the rng part that is the 2 crits in a row and through the static part which would be the secundairy resource.

I don't think this will happen tho, blizzard clearly has no idea what to do with fire mages because they're randomly nerfing us with lame ass numbers :') I'll just stay arcane..

[Jarion]

As for the OP of this thread, those things you dislike (the reliance on crit, the need to line up/hope for crits on combustion) are things I love about fire, the chaotic nature makes it my favorite spec to play, and those changes for me would dull the spec to an Arcane/Frost clone. I like feeling that my gear has a significant affect on my play style, and I like taking advantage of it as much as I can.

Every time my major DPS cooldown is available and my trinkets/enchants are up and I use my clever my PoM/AT/pyro macro and get no pyro crits I die a little inside.

I guess I'll just have to wait until 5.4 when I'll be critting constantly, BEFORE they drop the nerf hammer, and just soak up all my enjoyment then.

[Deleted]

why not just give us a secondary resource which is used to fuel the instant pyro's and such, i'm thinking like destruction warlocks have atm, using that spell that changes some of the base spells such as immolate to apply to all enemies in range instead of just single target, but costs 1 of their secondary resources, same could be done to fire mages, add a new spell that activates the "improved" spells, lets call the secondary resource, "molten soul charges" u pop this spell, (assuming u have enough molten soul charges), and it makes pyroblast instant cast, mana free, and guarenteed to crit, without using this secondary resource, u still have the same base mechanics, just pyro isn't a guarenteed crit, and u generate these molten soul charges at 1/10th rate from normal spell casts, a crit will give 20% of a bar maximum bars 4 (5 with glyph). what u think?

Or just roll a Destruction Warlock if you like that thing so much. We want diversity between classes, just re-making a mechanic from another class is utterly pointless and the complete wrong direction.
Plus, having to "use" something for an instant Pyro will just be insanely and stupidly clunky. The proc randomness and chaotic chance of getting multiple Pyros in a row is what makes Fire fun.


I do agree with a few ideas people have had. Like the stacking buff from Fireball when you don't crit, that would smooth out the spec a bit more. But it'll have to be executed well, otherwise it'll just dull the spec down to Frost's level.

And they do need to add some kind of CD. The stacking buff which then unleashes a DoT sounds pretty awesome. And it'll make Haste and Mastery a bit more attractive, rather than just full crit.


And on to AoE, i have a small idea.
Having a small CD (or even just a toggled ability) which lets Fireball and Pyro explode on impact, creating the spell to splash equally onto all mobs within 8-10 yards. Won't be so overpowered as it's an equal split of the ability. But it'll atleast give Fire something for AoE, and for it to be fairly decent.

[Schizophreni]

Every time my major DPS cooldown is available and my trinkets/enchants are up and I use my clever my PoM/AT/pyro macro and get no pyro crits I die a little inside.

I guess I'll just have to wait until 5.4 when I'll be critting constantly, BEFORE they drop the nerf hammer, and just soak up all my enjoyment then.

It's amazing when you do crit though.

Before the CM nerf I was already sitting at 50-51% crit, I'd rather have them try to balance the spec around a higher crit rate than this slow inflation to viability.

[spaace]

At this point, it feels like I'm talking to the stupid tree.

I don't think you fully understand what it is you just linked.

I don't think YOU fully understand.

No, fire doesn't just magically work, there is no gear currently available that will make it work.

If you don't understand how to make fire work, then play arcane. I'll wait for the cries in 5.2.

Just... frustrating between both of you. Take your head out of your asses.

User was infracted fo this post.

[Deleted]

When was fire shit PRIO to 5.1? You clearly haven't played fire during that period of time.
Fire was actually really good (maybe too good) pre 5.1. We knew a nerf was coming.
I personally did not expect it to be that hard of a nerf though.

[Jarion]

When was fire shit PRIO to 5.1? You clearly haven't played fire during that period of time.
Fire was actually really good (maybe too good) pre 5.1. We knew a nerf was coming.
I personally did not expect it to be that hard of a nerf though.

Who claimed fire was shit?
I've been playing fire since the beginning of BC.
My initial post is not about DPS.

[Charge me Doctor]

How is it meh?

Just because you can't pull good numbers with it, doesn't mean its in the shits.
Just means its harder to play.



And yes.. 1 proc 1 dot.. you sir are pro.


Single target, it's not as high as broken mastery scorch weaving arcane.
But still very competitive. (SimC 109k dps fire, 111k arcane with my gear setups)
Anything else, it destroys it.

Your DPS depends on how much crits in a row you land. How is it depends on skill?

And about making heating up a crit independent proc, i think this won't change anything, since you are switching random crit to less random proc.
I would like to see a counter proc, like, getting 10 stacks procs Pyroblast! Scorch gives you 1 stack, fireball 2 stacks, flamestrike 1 per target (max 5). Crit will double amounts of stacks you get. I don't want to get rid of Pyroblast! stacking, and i want this as substitute to current system.

I really loved old combustion, i want it to come back. I wonder why they won't implement it as passive skill for fire mage.

Since WotLK fire is getting more and more depending on RNG values.

[spaace]

Landing crits and clever use of heating up/pyroblast/cooldowns to do good, constant dps.
PLENTY of crit gear to make due.

[Charge me Doctor]

Landing crits and clever use of heating up/pyroblast/cooldowns to do good, constant dps.
PLENTY of crit gear to make due.

This is the main problem. Due to random nature of main source of damage from fire mage (no crits means no Pyroblast!(#1-2 on damage), no combustion(#3-5 on damage)). Even with 50% crit i had an issue with them not lining up (you can get only 1 Pyroblast! every 8 seconds if YoU cRiT lIkE tHiS. This happens alot, at least for me).
If blizz will implement something to reduce IB cooldown it will be awesome.

And how can you "clever" use heating up other than using IB right after it or praying for FBall crit?
I mean, if you have alter time not on CD and pot+hero+trinkets+procs up running, you can keep your Pyroblast! proc, get 1 Heating Up and alter time to get as much as you can from it (in terms of constant damage).
Or you can line up Pyroblast! and Heating Up and use Alter Time to try and leash 4 Pyroblasts in a row to get huge combustion.
I don't mention mirror images, because they shit in doing damage and should be used only on pull to get rid of aggro.

Actually, this is a part of problem, fire mages don't have a decent damage cooldown (can't count combustion, it is a part of our rotation)

[spaace]

I thought about taking you seriously until you said mirror image is terrible...
It is the single most damage per global cooldown we have.

Read the tooltip of Inferno blast.


How does combustion not count? It is a cooldown.. that does damage..

[Charge me Doctor]

I thought about taking you seriously until you said mirror image is terrible...
It is the single most damage per global cooldown we have.

Read the tooltip of Inferno blast.


How does combustion not count? It is a cooldown.. that does damage..

Well, mirrors never did decent damage if not stacked with SP buffs, and you need to pop it before bloodlust. which can be a problem if raid is keeping bloodlust for execute phase.
Inferno blast CD can be negleted by using combustion. So what? They made it so you can use combustion in AoE damage cases and not wait for fire blast to be not on CD, it is a QoL change.
By "reducing IB cooldown" i meant actually reducing it so you can use it more often to get more Pyroblast! procs (like dropping 1 seconds from its cooldown for every non-crit fireball).
Combustion is not a cooldown, it is a Mortal Strike. It is key part of our rotation, you don't just pop it up and do more damage, you need a preparation for it to be useful.

And as i remember, mirrors do about 300k damage over 30 seconds on 180 seconds cooldown, which means you can use them two or three times per fights (1 million damage over 90 seconds in best conditions), assuming, you do about 30 millions damage in 10 man fight, it is only 1/30 of your damage, which is shit comparing to, for example, rapid fire or demon soul.

Oh, and forgot to mention that mirrors have no synergy with others mage skills to be useful cooldown

[spaace]

Oh, and forgot to mention that mirrors have no synergy with others mage skills to be useful cooldown

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Mirror-Images

[Charge me Doctor]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Mirror-Images

And how this link should prove that mirrors have synergy with mage skills?
If you don't understand:
Skull Banner and Recklessness has synergy, first one gives you increased crit chance, the second one gives you crit damage.
The same goes with Colossus Smash, you want to use your hard-hitting skills right after applying debuff.
Mirror images have synergy only with stats of a mage. Bloodlust (10 minute raid-wide cooldown) is the only skill that can affect them.

Mirror images are dull and boring cooldown, you click it, and forget. They only thing you need to know when using it is if the boss is going to be immune or die in 30 seconds.