Why is what Jaina's done okay but Sylvanas not?

[NotValidAnymore]

Because one of them is dead and the other is not.

Guess who people want.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one who thinks the title and the OP don't fit together?

[Verdugo]

I'd prefer a dirty schemer, yet a nationalist and a patriot. Wearing all white and shiny like a paladin, yet shameless like a warlock on the inside.

Stormwind is already full of such self-righteous pricks.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one who thinks the title and the OP don't fit together?

Felt pointless to bring it up since people were already frenziedly debating, but yeah the title is a fully valid question. It just seems to be the inverse of what the OP was actually asking, seems.

Remember kids, it's ok to be bat shit mental if you believe what you're doing is right. It also helps to build many large statues of yourself.

[Ethas]

Sylvanas saw her people wiped by Arthas. She has been killed by him and ressurected to serve the killer and latter left to feel that pain and sorrow forever.
And what Jaina got comparing to it? Ah yeah few alliance soldiers killed on an island which placed near whole continent belonging to an enemy. Surprise.

[Lastlivingsoul]

Hand of the Silver Covenant Dangling people over a shark then dropping them isn't torture?
Yes, the scene of the crime where people are sitting peacefully in their homes or at the tavern or in the shops. I guess Fanlyr must have taken the Bell on a parade through Dalaran.
Now you are contradicting yourself. You say it's an eviction. What happens when people are evicted? They leave. "Those who escaped where [sic] banished." Since when do the police stop chasing suspects after they leave?
The Kirin Tor, Silver Covenant, and Sunreavers directly aided the Alliance in the events prior to Theramore.
No Sunreavers had anything to do with the Horde getting the Focusing Iris.
A Sunreaver agent works for the Sunreavers. A Garrosh agent works for Garrosh. Thalen and Fanlyr were NOT Sunreaver agents, they were Garrosh agents who happened to be Sunreavers. Fanlyr was the only Sunreaver involved with the Darnassus operation, the other mages were from Silvermoon.
That's what investigations and due pocess are for.
Cashing Out You are ordered to hunt down and murder someone trying to escape. He wasn't fighting anyone.
Sunreavers running terrified in the streets are flagged hostile to Alliance players even though they don't attack you. Why aren't they flagged neutral?
So because there is the potential for Garrosh to coerce Sunreavers, it's okay to brutalize all of them just in case?

Answering all of these in order
1) Death by Shark: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture Still quicker than say testing out plagues om someone or say burying them up to their heads in fecal matter and giving a Horde Character the chance to bash their heads back into the ground http://www.wowhead.com/item=65667
2) Eviction: action by a landlord that compels a tenant to leave the premises (as by rendering the premises unfit for occupancy)
If a tenant refuses to leave you get the police.
3) Still does not change the fact that his ties to the Sunreavers let them get close to both the Iris and the Bell. The Horde was not discreet in this arrangement since every Horde got their own Thalen Mini Bomb after Theramore.
4) Proof maybe before blanket statements: Prior to Theramore everybody was busom buddies. Oh yeah, aren't the Forsaken still killing thr Kirin Tor in Silverpine? Small wonder.

5) I would bother posting more but it sounds like you only play one faction. If you have an Alliance alt it doesn't quest much. Both sides are being played here buddy. You can't tell me that the Sunreavers don't put the Kirin Tor or Dalaran before the Horde. Dalaran is still a slap on the wrist compared to what the Horde has done under Garrosh. Every questline I've seen the horde burn kill betray lie and murder everything in their path and people like you defend that behavior. Well now you see that same behavior reflected back at you and you cry. Well its cannon now and you can't do anything but sit back and finish the story.

All I can say is your sensitivity sickens me. Heres your shovel. http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=65667

[Kiqjaq]

Both characters are victims of lazy writing.

Pretty much WoW in a nutshell.

Jaina betrays neutrality and helps Alliance maintain possession of the bell, then goes bat**** mental on the Sunreavers for breaking neutrality because they helped the Horde obtain the bell. It's like the writers can't remember what they've written for 8 seconds. Either that or they've decided that mental stability is just too uninteresting to have any of that in the game.

[Ryme]

Wait, what? All I've heard is unanimous dissaproval of what Sylvanas has done except for her fanbois (I am one of those, long 'live' the banshee queen).

[Aqua]

Yeah the only difference here OP is Sylvanas is EXPECTED to be a manipulative evil bitch. (Kind of in her job description)

Jaina wasn't so much after being the 'keeper of the peace' for quite some time. This change in character just has people excited, that's all.

This is just a reaction fallout. Neither of them are looked on favorably for their actions, rash or calculated.

[Deleted]

Neither of them are looked on favorably for their actions

Have you actually read any of the recent spate of Jaina threads? That's why the (probably unintended) thread title is a valid and open, unanswered question.

[Yriel]

1) Death by Shark: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture Still quicker than say testing out plagues om someone or say burying them up to their heads in fecal matter and giving a Horde Character the chance to bash their heads back into the ground http://www.wowhead.com/item=65667

That's like arguing with my 6 year old nephew...

You : "Alliance doesn't torture, bud!".
He : "Yes you do. Look at this for example (shows example)"
You : "But you torture,too and are much worse".

Yes but that's not the point.

[Flatspriest]

Simple answer to the OP. Sylvanus is a racial leader where Jaina is not.

[Aquamonkey]

Answering all of these in order
1) Death by Shark: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture Still quicker than say testing out plagues om someone or say burying them up to their heads in fecal matter and giving a Horde Character the chance to bash their heads back into the ground http://www.wowhead.com/item=65667

"anguish of body or mind" From your dictionary link. I'm refuting your claim that it didn't happen in Dalaran. "Now you see torture? Where?"

I made no mention of Horde using or not using torture.

2) Eviction: action by a landlord that compels a tenant to leave the premises (as by rendering the premises unfit for occupancy)
If a tenant refuses to leave you get the police.

Tell me again where murder and torture comes into play?

3) Still does not change the fact that his ties to the Sunreavers let them get close to both the Iris and the Bell. The Horde was not discreet in this arrangement since every Horde got their own Thalen Mini Bomb after Theramore.

The Sunreavers had nothing to do with the Iris.

4) Proof maybe before blanket statements: Prior to Theramore everybody was busom buddies. Oh yeah, aren't the Forsaken still killing thr Kirin Tor in Silverpine? Small wonder.

Tides of War: Kirin Tor send military aid to Theramore including Silver Covenant and Sunreaver forces before any attack happens.

You can't tell me that the Sunreavers don't put the Kirin Tor or Dalaran before the Horde.

Aethas represents the Sunreavers as a group. Aethas' faction tag has always been <Kirin Tor>. Aethas publicly denounces Garrosh on multiple occasions, approves military action against Garrosh, strongly believes the Blood Elves should withdraw from the Horde, worked his entire career to mend the relations between Quel'Thalas and Dalaran (after the Kirin Tor betrayed them in 3rd War), and supports Jaina's appointment to leader of the Council of Six. He clearly puts the Dalaran above all else.

Compare that to Vereesa, Jaina's right-hand mam during the Purge. Her faction tag has always been <Silver Covenant>. In Nowhere to Hide Vereesa says, "Show them the cost of their defiance. They now face the judgment of the Alliance, the Silver Covenant, and the Kirin Tor!" She puts the Alliance before the Kirin Tor and Dalaran.

Dalaran is still a slap on the wrist compared to what the Horde has done under Garrosh.

Persecuting innocent people is wrong regardless of the scale.

Every questline I've seen the horde burn kill betray lie and murder everything in their path and people like you defend that behavior. Well now you see that same behavior reflected back at you and you cry. Well its cannon now and you can't do anything but sit back and finish the story.

So now you are admitting that the Alliance is doing these horrible things? I never said the Horde were saints. But you seem to enjoy the Alliance coming down to the Horde's level.

[Deleted]

That's like arguing with my 6 year old nephew...

You : "Alliance doesn't torture, bud!".
He : "Yes you do. Look at this for example (shows example)"
You : "But you torture,too and are much worse".

Yes but that's not the point.

You're justifying everything the Forsaken do with one example of some mage dropping someone in the water to get eaten by a shark.

[Zaelsino]

1) Death by Shark: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture Still quicker than say testing out plagues om someone or say burying them up to their heads in fecal matter and giving a Horde Character the chance to bash their heads back into the ground http://www.wowhead.com/item=65667

Comparing atrocities isn't exactly the best way to convey moral superiority.

3) Still does not change the fact that his ties to the Sunreavers let them get close to both the Iris and the Bell. The Horde was not discreet in this arrangement since every Horde got their own Thalen Mini Bomb after Theramore.

Aethas dropped Thalen like a sack of bricks after Theramore. The guy isn't a Sunreaver anymore, so whatever he does is on his own head now.

4) Proof maybe before blanket statements: Prior to Theramore everybody was busom buddies. Oh yeah, aren't the Forsaken still killing thr Kirin Tor in Silverpine? Small wonder.

To be fair, Metzen did say that was a continuity error.

5) I would bother posting more but it sounds like you only play one faction.

That's just the thing, though: you're given a very one-sided picture on Alliance. You port in, don't even hear your target out, and then begin a purge at the behest of an elf with a very large chip on her shoulder.

You're given a very different one as Horde, due in part to the players themselves being present at the events that led into this. It's made explicitly clear to us that Aethas Sunreaver wants nothing to do with Garrosh and his agenda, and that the Divine Bell mission is a discreet espionage task which the bare minimum of people (us, Fanlyr and like three "Sunreavers") are privy to.

It makes the entire faction being persecuted/thrown in jail/killed a lot easier to sympathize with if the evidence at hand points to them being innocent of the crime they're being accused of.

[Vakna]

I have a feeling Sylvanas is already a puppet to a much dark power. Blizz has already said something very dark resides under the Tirisfal Glades. Wherever Koltira was dragged off to to be "purged of his compassion" I have feeling we'll find the true source of evil.

My guess is it has to do with the Burning Legion and more specifically Sargeras since the only remaining old god is suppose to be under the sea where Queen Azshara is.

Also, during some cinematic (WLK opening I think) I remember Therenas say: "the very forest whispered your name: Arthas" or something like that. I always liked to think that was meant literally because there's indeed something dark there.

Detracting from the main point of the thread for a moment, I believe there is a rather large distinction between the Burning Legion's evil and the Old God's evil, and the darkness emanating from the Tirisfall Glades, given all the little easter eggs and hints, smells very much of Old God evil.

I'm not sure how to best explain it, but there is a pretty unique flavor to each of those major powers, and it's quite easy to tell them apart without even knowing the true source of an event.

[Aquamonkey]

Detracting from the main point of the thread for a moment, I believe there is a rather large distinction between the Burning Legion's evil and the Old God's evil, and the darkness emanating from the Tirisfall Glades, given all the little easter eggs and hints, smells very much of Old God evil.

I'm not sure how to best explain it, but there is a pretty unique flavor to each of those major powers, and it's quite easy to tell them apart without even knowing the true source of an event.

Old Gods corrupt by slowly driving people mad.

Sargeras and the Legion corrupt by tempting people with power.

[Vakna]

Old Gods corrupt by slowly driving people mad.

Sargeras and the Legion corrupt by tempting people with power.

It's not only how they do what they do, rather more difficult to explain, just a feeling that they each have their own uniqueness. Like biting into an apple and a pear with your eyes closed, you don't know the source immediately, but they each have their distinctive flavours.

Go spend an hour in Tirisfal Glades, fly around, check out all the landmarks and weird, creepy little things Blizzard have randomly placed around the zone - the ring of fearie dragons performing some ritual being one example. Totally does not taste like legion evil sitting under there.

[Deleted]

Stormwind is already full of such self-righteous pricks.

Name one such "self-righteous prick".

[Mandible]

Because people know, and expect Sylvanas to do something like that - she knows how to behave right. Jaina just out right looses it.