Who's more "evil" as of now: Orcs or the Forsaken?

[Aquamonkey]

The orcs? They feel angry against the Alliance because itstead of beimg exterminated following their failed take over of Azeroth, they were put in prisons. Sure, some prison owners (Blackmoore), were dicks, but prison isn't much compared to extinction. Following their break out, they sail across the Ocean, live out a life far from the Humans most of them hate. Life isnt perfect here, but im time as relations improve and tensions decrease, they could probably get more fertile land. Instead, most of them flock like sheep to someone who says for some reason, their current state is not their own fault, and the actions of the Horde in the first two wars should be ignored and forgiven. And most orcs, in their agreement, proceed to head down the same path they did on Draenor.

Orcs are innocent of everything they did before while afflicted with the Blood Curse because of involuntary intoxication. Gul'dan lied to the Orcs when he gave them Mannoroth's Blood. In cases of involuntary intoxication, the person who "spiked" the drink (Gul'dan) is prosecuted for the crimes committed by the intoxicated party.

They are guilty of everything they did without the Blood Curse.

[Deleted]

it seems lately the Orcs in the Horde are doing ten times the worse than the Forsaken ever did.

Ten times worse than experimenting on living creatures? Please explain.

[Julian Rayne]

Neither are evil. The Forsaken are nihilistic Nietzsche wannabes and the Orcs are the inevitable (and surprisingly realistic) result of proud Proud Warrior Race Guy culture.

[Well]

Although as a Night Elf, I hate Orcs with a passion, I have to say that if I would be asked "Which of the two you want to burn?", I'd 100% answer Forsaken.

[Combatbutler]

Orcs are innocent of everything they did before while afflicted with the Blood Curse because of involuntary intoxication. Gul'dan lied to the Orcs when he gave them Mannoroth's Blood. In cases of involuntary intoxication, the person who "spiked" the drink (Gul'dan) is prosecuted for the crimes committed by the intoxicated party.

They are guilty of everything they did without the Blood Curse.

Saying they are entirely guiltless is a bit much wouldn't you agree? They were under fel influence, but the orcs should take some responsibility.

[Scummer]

Orcs are innocent of everything they did before while afflicted with the Blood Curse because of involuntary intoxication.

Involuntary?
"Ah, Thrall. You always believed that the demons corrupted our race, but that's only half true. We gave ourselves up willingly on Draenor! The other chieftains and I... we drank Mannoroth's blood, Thrall. We brought this curse upon ourselves!"
The Orcs corrupted themselves. They are a power hungry race. Their society is based around one's strength and martial prowess so when the opportunity arose that they could increase them they took it.

I take it drink drivers are innocent when they drive under influence?

[Trassk]

Saying they are entirely guiltless is a bit much wouldn't you agree? They were under fel influence, but the orcs should take some responsibility.

thats like saying the night elves could have made an effort to bargin with the orcs to begin with instead of outright trying to kill them for collecting wood.

But ooooh no its there forest its soooo sacred to them, and the orcs were sooooo meant to be aware of that, in a land they had just arrived in.

Why would the orcs have to take responsibility for past mistakes if the alliance can't do the same. Infact we see characters like Saurfang actually saying he carries the burden of those past mistakes every day and learns from them. Do we see any night elf ever saying 'yeah, we should have thought about talking to the orcs first, our bad'.

[Aquamonkey]

Saying they are entirely guiltless is a bit much wouldn't you agree? They were under fel influence, but the orcs should take some responsibility.

Guilty of seeking power. Not for what they did while intoxicated.

Involuntary?
"Ah, Thrall. You always believed that the demons corrupted our race, but that's only half true. We gave ourselves up willingly on Draenor! The other chieftains and I... we drank Mannoroth's blood, Thrall. We brought this curse upon ourselves!"

I take it drink drivers are innocent when they drive under influence?

They willingly drank the blood, but they didn't know it would intoxicate them and make them slaves to the Legion. Only Gul'dan knew this.

If the driver is involuntarily intoxicated (as in their drink was spiked), yes they are innocent. Prosecutors will go after the person who spiked the drink.

[Combatbutler]

thats like saying the night elves could have made an effort to bargin with the orcs to begin with instead of outright trying to kill them for collecting wood.

But ooooh no its there forest its soooo sacred to them, and the orcs were sooooo meant to be aware of that, in a land they had just arrived in.

Yes the night elves are to blame for the escalation in Ashenvale,with their shoot first ask questions later attitude, so I don't really see your point. I guess they would have fought each other regardless but they still should have tried, my point is no race is guiltless each and every one of them did some stupid things, but denying those flaws helps no one, in fact it cripples the races if you only see their good characteristics.

[Flatspriest]

I chose Orcs since Humans weren't able to be selected with the totally biased poll.

[Combatbutler]

Guilty of seeking power. Not for what they did while intoxicated.

Yes they should be cut some slack because of the fel power, but they are just as responsible as the draenei luring the legion to different worlds on their escape. Which isn't much but they are responsible in a way.

Or the pragmatic tactics the blood elves pulled during bc, as Lor'themar himself said

This is the line I walk, finally knowing that the actions I take in necessity are nonetheless indefensible.

[Well]

thats like saying the night elves could have made an effort to bargin with the orcs to begin with instead of outright trying to kill them for collecting wood.

But ooooh no its there forest its soooo sacred to them, and the orcs were sooooo meant to be aware of that, in a land they had just arrived in.

Why would the orcs have to take responsibility for past mistakes if the alliance can't do the same. Infact we see characters like Saurfang actually saying he carries the burden of those past mistakes every day and learns from them. Do we see any night elf ever saying 'yeah, we should have thought about talking to the orcs first, our bad'.

You know, when someone is cutting your essentially parent and at the same time child, you don't stand and try to bargain with him. What Night Elves have done up to here is more than justified. However, I blame their fear of strangers for not trying to find some common ground with the orcs, who I really feel sorry for, deep down. The orcs though didn't really offer any chance for negotiation or anything close to that.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes they should be cut some slack because of the fel power, but they are just as responsible as the draenei luring the legion to different worlds on their escape. Which isn't much but they are responsible in a way.

The Orcs can't be held responsible for their actions while intoxicated because they didn't intoxicate themselves by choice. They thought it was steroids.

The Draenei are guilty of hundreds of thousands to millions of counts of reckless endangerment and involuntary manslaughter. They didn't intend for those people to die, but they knew it was a consequence of their arrival on those planets.

[Combatbutler]

The Draenei are guilty of hundreds of thousands to millions of counts of reckless endangerment and involuntary manslaughter. They didn't intend for those people to die, but they knew it was a consequence of their arrival on those planets.

Just as the orcs knew the blood would change them, though they did not know in what way, while the Draenei hoped each time to have escaped the legion and have a chance to rebuild.

Both were reckless and have to carry the consequences each and every day.

[Aquamonkey]

Just as the orcs knew the blood would change them, though they did not know in what way, while the Draenei hoped each time to have escaped the legion and have a chance to rebuild.

Both were reckless and have to carry the consequences each and every day.

For the Orcs, it wasn't a case of negligence. They were intentionally mislead by Gul'dan. Just because they are innocent doesn't mean they don't face consequences of their actions.

[Deleted]

How could something that is death care in the slightest about life?

[Tydrane]

But, I believe that, for the most part, once they have achieved what they set out to do, they are not interested in taking that cruelness further. That's why I describe them as amoral (lacking concern for morality), rather than immoral (being aware of a concept of what is moral and actively going against it).
Even Sylvanas' objectives do not seem to go beyond securing Lordaeron (and surrounding failed states like Arathor) as a safe-haven for herself and, by proxy, her subjects. She doesn't seem interested in causing suffering beyond what seems necessary to achieve that.

I dunno. The Royal Apothecary Society (at least pre-WotLK) NPCs in the Apothecarium used to say stuff about their plague being designed to exterminate all life on Azeroth. Or maybe it was a cure for their condition that they were allegedly working on, but turned out to be the plague (with the same objective of killing everyone/thing but the Forsaken).

I kind of do think that the Forsaken are more evil, but I like them that way. I like their moustache-twirling, Machiavellian-style schemes and plots. It makes them one of the most interesting factions to follow, and I can't wait to see what the next part of their story is.

[Combatbutler]

For the Orcs, it wasn't a case of negligence. They were intentionally mislead by Gul'dan. Just because they are innocent doesn't mean they don't face consequences of their actions.

The problem is they embrace those bloody years instead of shunning them, they disapprove of the fel power, but they still embrace bloodshed, which is evident today, they are not under the influence of demon blood and they are almost as destructive as they used to be during the second war.

I dunno. The Royal Apothecary Society (at least pre-WotLK) NPCs in the Apothecarium used to say stuff about their plague being designed to exterminate all life on Azeroth.

The Plague Sylvanas ordered was intended to be used to wipe out the scourge and the humans, because their race spawned Arthas, the rest is ambition I guess. ;P

[Sevyvia]

Neither are more evil, both are copies of satan.

[Aquamonkey]

The problem is they embrace those bloody years instead of shunning them, they disapprove of the fel power, but they still embrace bloodshed, which is evident today, they are not under the influence of demon blood and they are almost as destructive as they used to be during the second war.

You make a good point. They seem pissed off that they weren't in control more so than being remorseful over what they did.